Great post, I have been at the recieving end of MN when I was foolish enough to have empathy or feel sorry for them. Thats when the narcs tone of voice turned evil and there was a sick gleam in there eye. Even if they appear to be behaving, just wait a moment because that is when you will get a knife in the back. It is so true the MNs want to control and destroy. It is a tricky twist they play, You wrote - they want us to be capable of empathy so they can exploit us. So very true. In turn the hate us even more because we are human and have empathy. They then find endless ways to fuck with our minds and insult us on the sly and try to destroy any happieness or humanity we have. It brings them such joy. Thank you for writing your blog. I am so glad I am not going to be so easily manipulated by these MN. I also come from a family of Narcs. It is a dangerous and deadly thing to be around, a malignant Narc. MG
MG,I too used to pity the poor narcissist. I made excuses for them, gave them the benefit of the doubt (they didn't really mean that) and treated them with kid gloves to avoid their rage and narcissistic tantrums. Their vile nature controlled me because in order to keep the peace the onus was on me to behave a certain way - as an adult baby sitting a nasty spoiled brat. They will never do anything to alter their behavior. They think they're perfect and it's up to us to adpapt to them and be "complaisant." Get real narcs! I say if you have to deal with them at all, you should have your guard up and show NO chinks in your armour. Treat them like the predators they are. Empathizing with them is the worst approach. It's like willingly putting yourself in harms way.
"And the dish ran away with the spoon.." BWHAHAHAAA! That's exactly how much I need to know about the "Etiology of Two-Legged Predators" aka, MNs. Yeah, if we talk it to death by citing bogus "Studies," "empathize" it beyond reason with careful word-smithing and blame-shift the very real evil these Predators do to the VICTIMS of MN abuse, somehow that makes MN's "acceptable?" A bit more palatable? So, what about the VICTIM'S "Wounding?" Of their REAL "selves?" Repeated intentional infliction of damage to others particularly their own family members ("Yum, yum, tasty lil' morsels of kids," says the Predator Parent/Sibling) is nasty. Period the end. They do it because they get off on it. They do it because they CAN. They do it because they're (evil) aberrations and an affront to humanity. My empathy remains with the abused, not the abusers. I do believe "Depthpsych" hit a "Depth Charge." There, that's the "etiology" of their convoluted thinking ;) TW
Seriously. What about the VICTIM'S "Wounding?" or their REAL "selves?" Talk about misplaced empathy. But that's to be expected with someone like "DepthCharge." Hey, if you can concoct a way to get these Two-Legged Predators in therapy, you can make some real $$$.
I always love the 'well he had a horrible childhood/she was abused" etc excuse for horrifying behavior. Because if that was Cause & Effect, then every single person who lived to walk out of Auschwitz or the like would have turned out to be a narc, an abuser.
I have sympathy for someone's pain and 'crazy' and suffering. But when it impacts anyone else but THEM, I want them to grow the fuck up, or die. I have NO sympathy for anyone who refuses to stop abusing. None. I wish them death, nothing less.
Gladys! I agree. Grow the fuck-up or die. This so-called disorder that they are beset with makes everyone suffer but THEM. I too have no sympathy for anyone who refuses to stop abusing. That must be what DepthCharge meant by their "plight." These poor Narcs just can't stop a abusing.
Lisette, About a year ago i went NC with my MN parents. I live a about 1000 miles or so away from them. In the time I have had no contact with them I have realised I totally had to walk on eggshells around them, ignore horrible comments and pretend everything was just great.(Even though my life w/ them has been a type of horror story) This must be a sure sign you are dealing with a MN.I realized this was completly insane. In the past if I ever confronted my MN mom she would go into a screaming rage, so I quit confronting her. I just realized one day I had to walk away or continue the legacy of evil.It is evil, I was manipulated by my ignoring mom. Her brother sexually abused me. She says she had no idea. I dont know if thats true because I can never trust my parents. Because I live far away it has been relativly easy to avoid them so far. But I have this instinct, they are not finished. So I will keep my armour on and be ready for flying daggers and biting teeth. I have to watch them torture my siblings, which is re enforsement for me to stay away from them. Some of my siblings have gone NC also. There has been almost complete silence from my Nm since the day I told her about her brother. I know the time will come where she may just show up @ my door or I will have a conversation with her. I will remember the TRUTH of everything and know that i am in control of my emotions. I really believe my parents are dangerous. Its hard to for people to understand this concept if they havnt had a MN family member. I know I can always call the cops if worst comes to worst. Your explanations of the MN "parent/person" behavior has been very helpful. I look foward to trying my damb hardest to never let a MN enter my life again. I am done dealing w/ my parents and a few other narcs.This has been difficult, almost like exorcising these people from my life. I know it will get better, these MN underestimated me.Thanks 4 letting me vent! MG
MG, vent away. So true, you can never relax around a MN/N parent - egg shells for sure. I'm glad to hear you are NC and have removed some other dangling narcissists from your life. Also good to hear the MNs underestimate you. I'm sure you'll be prepared, should they be stupid enough to try and pull any stunts.
Lissete, Also, after reading your blog, i wanted to say sorry you had to go through so much abuse from your family. It was a lot of terrible abuse, insanity and crap. Glad you made it through. It is good to know there are survivors and that people do get beyond MN abuse. And then fight back exposing Narcs! MG
Wow, Lisette, great blog! I loved reading everyone's posts here - as I, myself, am the scapegoat of a narcissistic family. But I'd like to tell you what I've begun doing as a way to 'even the score' with my toxic family - because now it's MY TURN! Now when they try to 'set me up' in order to abuse me, I quickly figure out a way to turn it all around to my advantage and make THEM the target! That's right - I will get clever and creative and throw that curve ball right back at them! Just recently, I celebrated a milestone birthday and there was...well...nothing from my family. Soon thereafter, my sister-in-law (my GC brother's wife) celebrated her birthday and there was an enormous fanfare! My narcissistic family made certain that this gala would be held on a night that I was off from work so that I could attend. Well, I didn't attend and instead chose to ignore them all - especially my GC brother and his narcissistic wife. For Christmas, I gave them absolutely nothing to make them understand just how hurtful and abusive their behavior was. In addition, because I just KNEW that my GC sister had her hand in all of this, I decided to simply ignore her and not give HER a present for Christmas, either. Well, guess what she gave me for Christmas? A rosary! As if to say, "Oh, you poor thing, here...you need God in your life!" And as a way to be 'subtle' about it, she decided to give me another little trinket. Guess what? I sent her an email telling her just how much I loved the trinket and wished her a wonderful new year (sarcastically, of course). Then, a few days later when I went to visit my NM, I hung the rosary up around her Virgin Mary picture on the living room wall. I'm sure my NM will tell her what I did. Now, she knows where we stand - which is NOWHERE! I feel so empowered by all of this and am bracing myself for the next curve ball because I WILL be ready for it. May the Good Lord deliver us from ALL of the MNs in our lives.
I hope you are NC with your nfoo. Narcissists are always going to hurt us, it's what they do and nothing is going to change that. If we as adults choose to be in relationships with narcissists then we are going to be abused, period. I choose not to be abused. That means no relationships with narcissists. I don't have the energy or desire to endure a relationship, always on the defensive and always on guard, with someone I don't even like. I don't give a damn if I'm related to them. In fact, if they're a relative it just means they're more dangerous.
Lisette, I've been nc for years. But as you know, it still stings. Just not like it use to. Not to long ago, they did go through somebody I know to let me know of my nparents illness. Guess they though I'd give a damn.
Yes, the memories do still sting a little. But once I wrapped my head around this MN thing I didn't take it quite as personal. I figure a predator always needs prey, better someone else than me.
Anon, Awesome! I laughed out loud when I read about the email you sent your GC sister. She must have been scratching her head and thinking, "Huh?" Your "family" has sent you a pretty strong message about how they feel about you, I'm glad you sent them a message back.
"Now, she knows where we stand - which is NOWHERE!"
I love it!
So many of us have taken the high road when it comes to narcissists and their abuse. No more! It stops with us!
Excellent and truthful post. People have been brainwashed into thinking that we need to be sympathetic and nice to the narcs because they have a "disorder and need help." I have no sympathy for them... People look at me as though I have no heart because I won't feel sorry for them.Their thinking is just as distorted as the narcs.
Yes, it's the good old blame-the-victim mentality. Everyone blames the victim for the abuse they've had to endure, including the narcissist. The narcissist's attitude is, "Well, if you weren't YOU then I wouldn't have to abuse you. You have a lot of nerve to exist, how dare you be YOU. Can't you see all the trouble you're causing ME by just by existing!"
I wrote off the narcs a long time ago. Feeling sorry for them just doesn't compute in my brain. I have more compassion for rabid dogs than I do narcissists.
The "turn the other cheek" and "forgiveness is best" mindsets are dangerous ones designed to keep avenues open for predatory attacks, IMO.
I do believe in love as the most effective mindset in life overall, but I'm talking real and radical love, not the mamby pamby counterfeit sort, and authentic love is action and often brutal action (in the sense of throwing that ball back where it came from when needed as much as possible).
"So are we supposed to “empathize” with the vile narcissist because their real-self flew away? Yeah right. And the dish ran away with the spoon." Nothing has made me laugh harder all week long! The icing on the cake had to be the intermittent break out of the thesaurus... Seriously, I'm sitting here alone in front of my lap top still giggling my ass off!
For years now, I was thinking that my mother was some kind of cross between BPD, NPD, and AsPD. Even though I was in the Cluster B ball park, no description of any of this seemed to capture the level of malevolence that I've witnessed with my own mother...until I was introduced to this blog and hit the mother load. The posts that I initially read actually made my skin crawl because it felt too familiar - it was almost like you interviewed her evil ass in order to write them.
After attaching an accurate name to the behavior, I have to confess that I got really curious. I spent a lot of time doing all kinds of research about how/why/when this happens...until I got bored and decided that I didn't give a f*ck, I mean seriously, who cares?
I also have no pity for them. Why? Because they know the difference between right and wrong, yet choose to do what feels good at that moment in time regardless of anything else. How do I know? Because I've seen my own mother behave different ways in front of different people. If she didn't know whatever she was doing was wrong, her behavior would be consistent regardless of who was around. She committed crimes, yet knew enough to cover them up. Did that bother her? Nope. That bitch was able to pass a polygraph test without batting an eyelash, only to come back and brag about it later.
I reserve my pity for the victims of the MNs, especially for the children who grew up with vile pieces of shit like this for parents. The world would be a better place if all Ns just sterilized themselves...And just in case there are any people reading this thinking, "But if Ns were sterilized, you wouldn't have been born." Yup, I'm aware, and my position remains the same.
Hi Lissette; my malignant family is so crafty and believable by others that after they heard how hurt i was that after my diagnosis with breast cancer and a double mastectomy they didn't even send a card or left a message on the phone they chose to get revenge on me. they convinced some of the people in my community who have been supportive that I am faking.Two of these are people who went to the hospital and waited in the waiting room while having surgery. these are people who have seen the scars where my breasts once were. these are people who i chose to be my family when i realized my own cause nothing but pain. so,after i finally initiated the no-contact rule[ which actually they were happy about] they still don't stop.BTW these same people convinced my daighter that my late husband was faking leukemiaa a few weeks before his death, which has caused my daughter emotional problems and my husband to die thinking his little girl hated him. So now, rather then feeling empowered by breaking away, I feel hopeless that I can ever escape their evil.
Hi Anonymous, Tundra Woman left a comment (below) if you get a moment to read it, and respond to some of her questions that might be helpful. From what I gather, you went NC and your MN family continues to slander you to the people in your life that you trust, and who should trust you.
^Anon, Can you say a bit more about feeling "hopeless" post NC? Are you saying you feel hopeless because you're on the receiving end of a Smear Campaign courtesy of your family? I'm not quite following you in that you state you initiated NC and "they still don't stop." Do you mean they don't stop trying to contact you or they are engaging in a Smear Campaign? How long have you been NC? There's lots of "good stuff" on this Blog you'll find very validating re: What to expect post NC including predictable tactics (such as Smear Campaigns). Also, if you look at the link for Luke Ministries you'll find a really great Post on "The Surprising Tactics Abusers Use Post-NC" (para) which, in a nutshell, says expect the abuse to ramp up and speaks to this paradoxical response as a predictable out-growth secondary to NC from a NFOO. TW
I went NC about 6 months ago, which was 6 months after my mastectomy[yesterday was my "canniversary" It was the cruelty heaped on me at the time of diagnosis that finaally made me realize I could not fix them and that whatever I did they would hurt me. I have high functioning autism [ other than home, I could not speak until 14 years old. I still rock, walk on my toes, do the wrist thing, have extreme anxiety and am definitely socially retarded though I have gotten through life fairly well by learning "scripts" of appropriate reactions, etc.] and we tend to be gullible and trusting way too often.
I feel hopeless because i truly believed I was a part of a community that cares[ no, i KNOW they cared] I believed after NC they could no longer hurt me. I still cannot believe that they were able to convince my friends [ex friends.] that I am lying about my breast cancer. As I mentioned before, some of these were friend who waited in the waiting room for me during surgery. one of them [i was one of her brides matrons] held my head when i puked over the toilet and helped me pick out wigs] anyway, I am starting to cry just thinking about this and thank you for responding to my post.
I went NC about 6 months ago, which was 6 months after my mastectomy[yesterday was my "canniversary" It was the cruelty heaped on me at the time of diagnosis that finaally made me realize I could not fix them and that whatever I did they would hurt me. I have high functioning autism [ other than home, I could not speak until 14 years old. I still rock, walk on my toes, do the wrist thing, have extreme anxiety and am definitely socially retarded though I have gotten through life fairly well by learning "scripts" of appropriate reactions, etc.] and we tend to be gullible and trusting way too often.
I feel hopeless because i truly believed I was a part of a community that cares[ no, i KNOW they cared] I believed after NC they could no longer hurt me. I still cannot believe that they were able to convince my friends [ex friends.] that I am lying about my breast cancer. As I mentioned before, some of these were friend who waited in the waiting room for me during surgery. one of them [i was one of her brides matrons] held my head when i puked over the toilet and helped me pick out wigs] anyway, I am starting to cry just thinking about this and thank you for responding to my post.
Thanks so much for clarifying. It sounds like you've had some pretty traumatic events recently (the dx., surgery/chemo etc.) and realized your FOO was not going to be any more "supportive" than they had been previously. Now you're on the receiving end of a Smear Campaign for sure and I am sorry; this is typical post-NC response. Six months is pretty early in the process of putting your life back together after years of MN abuse: It WILL get different, it will get better. The way you're feeling today is not the way you're gonna be feeling forever. But when we're going through this, it feels unbearable and never ending. A previous Post, "Never Show Vulnerability to an MN" speaks to the Predatory tactics MNs use when we're at our lowest and most in need of support. Your "friends" (the community to whom I think you're referring, correct?) who choose to believe your NFOO rather than you really weren't "friends" and that's another huge loss to be grieved. Responding to ridiculous allegations etc. is a waste of your time, energy and effort-you need all you have to focus and concentrate on regaining your health post-surgery/chemo. Please remember the end of this story hasn't been written yet, Anon. It takes a lot of courage to terminate a relationship with the MNs/FOOs just as it does to deal with a major illness. Methinks you have far more inner resources than you yet realize. Again, please keep reading here as well as the links to other great sites. You're not as alone as it may seem right now and I'm pleased you found your way "here." TW
Anonymous, I hope you get a chance to read TW's post (above). Her words are very encouraging and helpful. I really do feel for you, anonymous. It is difficult, at the best of times, to endure a MN Smear Campaign so I can only imagine how difficult it is for you to endure one with all the other challenges you face. I too am pleased that you utilized your inner resources to find your way here. You are here and that is a good thing. And you are stronger than any of those narcs will ever be.
I want to add that I also feel for you, anonymous - You've been through so much and are still in a position of having to fight at a time where you should be able to relax a bit.
The other part of this is pulling at my heart strings is that my own daughter is high-functioning autistic - she had the whole delayed speech, wrist thing going on, and lots of social anxiety. I love her more than anything and have dedicated many years to getting her the treatment that she needed to survive in this world. I spend the rest of my time doing anything I can to make the quality of her life better, including doing a lot of talking to her about her feelings and explaining things to her that she just doesn't get (she still has problems with figures of speech and some non-verbal cues)... If anyone attempted to harm her in any way, I would all but kill them.
This is the response of a normal mother, which is the exact opposite of what you have. I am so sorry for all that you've had to endure, but am glad that you found us. I hope that you hang around, keep reading and keep commenting - it will give you the courage that you need to keep fighting.
Big hugs to you, Anonymous. You're stronger and more amazing than you even realize.
Wow. Lotta theory all over. Here's the answer: they're two. And no one ever forced them to act older than two and pay the consequences. Except me. I always figure out a way now to rub their shit in their faces but look like I'm not trying to do that at all. I make them ACCOUNTABLE for their nasty behavior. Then walk away happy knowing I have fucked them up a little bit like they fuck with everyone else. WAH! Look what you did in your diaper! Oops. Gotta go.
Anonymous, I love it! They are all just big babies. When I picture a narc, I often see Baby Huey, you know that cartoon of a gigantic, over-grown duckling with that annoying meebly voice? They are ridiculous and some of them get away with their crap without consequences all their lives. When a narc poops in their diaper just leave them to wear it. Oh yeah!
OK, Anon and "...Lotta theory all over here." Please give some concrete examples of "...a way now to rub their shit in their faces but look like I'm not trying to do that at all." Apparently, you're not NC with a *Family Member.* And please explain how you "(always) made them ACCOUNTABLE for their nasty behavior." How did they *own* their "accountability?" And how are you certain you're dealing with an MN Family Member? I await your response with an eye towards *specific* examples. Thank you. TW
Unfortunately after 30 plus years of dealing with MNs, I haven't quite figured this out how to make them accountable for anything. Hell, I could never manage get any of them admit to any wrongdoing, much less *own* it.
Do I see a "How To Make a MN Eat Shit Pie" blog post in the near future? :)
believe I know how to make a MN eat shit pie. I saw The Help. All you have to do is bake one, and serve it to them under the guise of begging for their forgiveness. Those MNs are pretty dumb, I think they would eat a bull-shit apology right up.
Ps. I'm not a great baker so I would have to use one of those ready made tenderflake pie crusts. Producing the shit filling won't be a problem for me.
Yes, that was a perfect example. But it's possible to have fun without that much work. I have an ex personal service provider ( N/soc/Borderline) who did a pretty good job ( for awhile, until I caught on) of making me think she was a great friend so she could extract more money from me. ( and did, for awhile until I decided she had to go -- her specialty was "come closer so I can appear nice and concerned about you, then fuck with your head, take your money and reject you.") Anyhoo, once I caught on to how much fun you could have with these folks I began doing stuff like when I was on the phone with her and she'd suddenly "have to get off" ( have you ever noticed that these folks have ZERO problem with the sudden abandonment with no easing out conversationally that they have to go? Like a guy "pulling out" for no reason) she'd say ( Oh, I also forgot to add this, whenever she called me she was ALWAYS in the middle of some sort of planned chaos that would give her an easy escape when she'd done the bare minimum of "appearing like a good friend" bullshit, like she'd call from the drive thru of a fast food restaurant or with a car full of screaming kids that she was taking somewhere) She'd suddenly say, "I gotta go. I'll call you later." Now while I was in Useful Idiot mode ( for YEARS) I would believe her, not get a call (of course) because narcissists never follow thru unless there's something in it for them, I would typically call her her again and of course the call would go to voicemail. Cut to No Longer A Useful Idiot Fun Mode. "When she would say "I'll call you later,"I would say, "Okay, but I won't expect your call." DROVE HER NUTS because it robbed her of her control. If you can find ways to rob them of their control that's the best drive crazy tool you have. See they're the truly fucked up ones, but they need to look like they're not and project the fucked-up on onto you. So figure out how to turn the tables on them. If your relationship is about begging them for reassurance or guidance, STOP. Go elsewhere. Stop using them as supply. (They have none to give anyway. They're empty on the inside.) The only thing they ever provide are hooks so they can use you. These may seem like small, unimportant moves but they are very effective.
Okay, here's one example of many. I have ( had, I think he's officially sick of me and of course it's mutual) a lawyer friend I would take to the opera when the guy I have season tickets with is/was out of town. These are not just any tickets. They are second row center tickets that cost two hundred fifty bucks a seat. But I, being a generous soul, never made him pay. Ever. I just liked him and enjoyed his company because he's smart, interesting and plays classical piano. Generally I'd arrange for us to meet at 1:30 for a two PM performance. I like to get there a little early to have time to go to the bathroom first. Invariably this guy would breeze in at like 1:45 with no excuse and I'd have to scramble to pee ( there's always a a long line) and get to the seat on time because the performance starts 2PM sharp. And I'd be a flustered nervous wreck. Well one day I decided I'd had enough with this prima donna. After another no show at one-thirty I decided to go upstairs and listen to the pre-concert lecture, then came down around ten minutes before two to get him. He was a nervous wreck thinking he had been abandoned (always play the abandonment card with the N's. You know, like they do to YOU with no guilt whatsoever? These vampires have serious core issues around abandonment and it really gets to them. The next time I invited him to an event, an evening event as it were, I got there really early (like an hour ahead of time) to make sure I would have parking. To kill the hour I decided to go to a restaurant nearby and have a glass of wine before meeting him at the appointed time. Lo and behold, as I'm walking to the restaurant, I see HIM walking towards ME. He'd made himself show up an hour early to avoid the shame of getting abandoned again. You could see he was really uptight but trying to look casual and in control. One caveat with these creatures, if you get them to fall in line and behave like a normal adult ( in this case honoring a time comittment) they WILL find a way to punish you. (More on that in another post -- it's late here on the west coast) But as my therapist is fond of saying, "If they're punishing you, you won."
One quick PS, I walked away from the entire side of my mother's family when I realized they were all a bunch of borderline narcissists, so I'm very well aware of family bullshit on this front.
Lisette you began this topic with the question: "Is there a worldwide phobia on the existence of evil?" in your response to the smartarse psychology student who has the arrogance to think we are not aware of the psychological theories she parrots,and instructs us as if she was gifted with unique knowledge and we are ignorant bystanders who need her enlightenment to see the real picture.
I am extremely well versed in the pathetic one eyed, one dimensional religion of academic psychology, and not the only one here I am sure. How dare you offer us your "expert" observations (for our own good!)Your apologist stance enables MNs to flourish by trying to exploit the sympathies of potential victims. I wonder what motivates you to protect their evil? Self-interest? Your comments are outrageous and enormously offensive. Fuck off.
Exactly! Outrageous and enormously offensive. I can't stand these jerk-offs. First, it's abundantly clear they've never encountered a malignant narcissist in their life, or even a N for that matter. Because if they had, they sure as shit wouldn't be "trying to exploit the sympathies of potential victims." They would be mad as hell and it would be clear to them that there is no help for these sick freaks. Second, there is ALWAYS a pay off for these pinheaded drones who expound lame psychological theories: They are trying to convince themselves that their University tuition wasn't a waste and they really can earn it back by exploiting the system for billable hours by diagnosing an N "treatable." A lot of billable hours. They all have an agenda that's for sure and they have a hell of a lot of nerve offering their "expert" observations to those who have actually LIVED IT. Bugger off! That shit doesn't work here. I wonder just how many of these arrogant psych students/therapists have had to come to terms with evil in their own parentage? And back to question at hand: "Is there a worldwide phobia of the existence of evil?" I believe there is and the people who are afraid of it want to deny it out of existence or make excuses for it. I guess there is some kind of pay of for those people. Again, that shit doesn't work here. Fuck off!
I'm reading all this after having watched the clip ( the tape the jury wasn't allowed to see) of Jody Arias, singing and standing on her head in an interrogation room right after she was arrested for the hideously cruel murder of her boyfriend.. All the forensic psychologists and "experts" (pinheaded drones) trying to make sense of her casual behavior here. Who could SING after such a thing???? Who could stand on her head???? A FUCKING PSYCHOPATH, DOUCHEBAG!!! DID YOU NOT STUDY THESE EVIL FUCKS IN COLLEGE???? Why did not one of these so called psyche experts simply tell it like it is? How hard is this? Why was she standing on her head? Well, she had already finished her things to do list that day which included lying about slashing someone a million times and she was bored. So she sang. And when the song was over she stood on her head. Then maybe when the camera stopped rolling she ordered in a salad and did a crossword puzzle while she contemplated who she might want to stalk and murder next when she beats this rap because all the experts seem to be baffled about her odd behavior and hey there may be a good chance that she's innocent and didn't really almost behead somebody. I need a drink....
Wow! I have not been following the Jody Arias story, but that I would like to see: Some psycho standing on her head for literally getting away with murder. Now if that ain't a dance by the devil, I don't know what is. Yeah, the so-called "experts" playing dumb, or maybe they just are dumb, are so annoying. I have been on a TV news and print news freeze since I saw a big article on Narcs in my local paper and the "expert" interviewed was a psychiatrist/professor at the University/AND a local politician. Hidden agenda much? The article was absolute fluff and so misleading and totally irresponsible as far as educating the public on Narcs. I thought: I gotta write to the editor, this is bull-shit, but I didn't. Anyway, the next time I grabbed the paper I made sure to read the comments about the Narc article. The first one they posted said something like how "informative" the article was, how "important" it was etc. etc. And guess what the slant was in this article with a psychiatrist as its main source? That they are "treatable" and that we must have "compassion" for narcissists because some of them try... they really "try." I'm sure Robert Hare - who wrote "Without Conscience" and operates out of the same University as the Narc sympathiser who was interviewed for the article - was rolling his eyes big time. The paper was a free local entertainment rag, but it has HUGE readership. And not once was Hare mentioned in the article. Methinks there was a little politicking at work there.
Yeah, methinks so too. Mealsothinks, that when these "experts" get on camera (their "15 minutes") that it behooves them as probable Narcs themselves to come up with the most outlandish and improbable reasons possible to explain psychopathic behavior because it makes their point of view so SPECIAL. I also forgot to mention that in addition to the acrobatics and singing, Arias was also chiding herself for not putting on a little makeup. I had to laugh especially loud at your last few statements (about Narcs being able to "try") as I got a call last week from a long-lost aunt of mine ( hadn't spoken to her in like 23 years) 89 years old, definite Narc who just "came across my name in an old address book and decided to try calling." After a few minutes of catching up it became clear that she was really calling to see if I could help her granddaughter get into showbiz and, even more important, let me know she had a boyfriend. (I'm single, happily, but she remembers me from back then when I must have been unhappy about it.) For twenty minutes it was the boyfriend, the boyfriend, the boyfriend, the boyfriend. As I was happy for her, I'm sure she didn't get the rise she was looking for. Come to think of it, it's probably why she kept trying to hammer it in every five seconds. Duh... But the point here is SHE'S 89 AND SHE HASN'T CHANGED ONE BIT. ABSOLUTELY NOT ONE BIT. Didn't the psychiatrist you refer to ever come across the words, "enduring and pervasive". They only appear to change when they want something and then they go back to being who they really are when they get it. Or DON'T get it.
89 years old a new boyfriend?... Ah, to be young and in love.
No they don't change at all and "enduring and pervasive" is exactly it. Sure, they may "try" only when they want something, and as soon as they get it *poof* they go back to default position.
I'm going to search for the Jody Arias "Devil Dance." Curiosity has gotten the better of me, and it must be all over the internet.
" Yeah,the so-called "experts" playing dumb or maybe they just are dumb"
Exactly. I think a lot of them are narcs themselves and even the ones who aren't, have an agenda. What gets me is when gullible people eat this up as though these "experts" know all.I've heard people say that people shouldn't diagnose anybody and that we should leave that to the "experts." Well, the joke is on them sense most of the "experts" are narcs themselves.
What this bullshit does is to get people who can clearly see Arias is one, sick crazy bitch into thinking that their perceptions are wrong and there must be a more enlightened/complex answer to why she would behave like this. My response? KEEP IT SIMPLE, STUPID. Lisette, you really do need to Google this psycho bitch to see how awful she is. Stalked her boyfriend, he avoided her, then got lured back in to having sex with her, after which she she butchered him in the shower then took pictures on her cell phone, etc.
Yeah, 89 with a new boyfriend. Because I've gone NC with most of my mother's side of the family I was a little slow on the uptake with this one (it's been a while since I've dealt with the truly devious -- like taking too much time away from the gym and having lax muscles) and didn't really attribute quasi malicious intent to the call until I was well into it. Upon reflection, I can now see ( and by the way, I don't think "they" do this consciously at all, most of the time) that when she learned I was going to be of no showbiz use to her granddaughter, she was at least going to end the call getting some N supply for herself so she could feel like she could hang up the phone, one-up having gotten SOMETHING. I don't bring all this up to obsess. I bring all this up to show you how toxic they are in terms of targeting your weak spots and going in for the kill. The thing WE have to do is know our own weak spots so well that when they try to attack them we immediately identify what they're trying to do and get the hell out.
The so-called "expert" thing really pisses me off. These "experts" go to school to study "theories" so they can learn how to "conjure up" diagnosis so they can make $$$$. It doesn't "pay" to say this person is an evil piece of shit and there isn't a chance in hell for them. Simplicity doesn't bring in the big bucks. Anon, I couldn't agree more that this BS sends the message out to the masses that their perceptions are wrong and there must be a more enlightened/complex answer to why someone is evil. Mankind is being brainwashed in that regard because there's money to be made off our naiveite. They're not going to let us stop eating McDonalds and they're not going to let us stop thinking the so-called "experts" know best.
"I was a little slow on the uptake with this one (it's been a while since I've dealt with the truly devious -- like taking too much time away from the gym and having lax muscles)."
That made me laugh because it's so true. Seriously, you always need to be thinking like a black belt around the truly devious. I always need a good work-out around narcs to keep me on my toes. But since I avoid them, I give myself mental refreshers and read things about them that will piss me off.
I watched Arias standing on her head. Yeah, she is definitely posessed. While she was upside down I was waiting for her head to spin all the way around and her body to stay in the same position.
Yes, that creature is surely from hell and I hope the criminal "justice" system escorts her back to her birthplace. Absolutely agree she is right out of The Exorcist. It's scary the degree to which the experts can manipulate perceptions by screwing with what you know to be reality and placing an element of doubt in your head. All this reminds me of what Chris Rock said years ago when everyone was trying to figure out the whys of Columbine: maybe it was the education system, maybe it was peer pressure, maybe it was bad parenting, etc. Rock said: "What ever happened to just, plain crazy?" In my book, that is Jody Arias' official diagnosis.
This reminds me of something "psychologist of the soul" James Hillman said years ago to the effect that "after 100 years of modern psychology, people are sicker than ever". For anyone not aware of him, his view was that any psychology which ignored the existence, importance, capacities and variations of the human soul was bound not only to not help people but instead do active harm. That is also my view. His comments apply to any kind of academic psychology, whether behavouristic, cognitive, psychodynamic, whatever. They are all partial and self-serving theories which are used as tools to control and perpetuate reigning ideologies and oppression, not to maximise human healing and freedom. Only truth can do that, not theories. That is why the truth of our experience which we record here is so important. It's hilarious in one way that psychostudent would suppose that she could trivialise and discount us with her psychocrap, when we have collectively centuries of experience between us - amounting to thousands and thousands of years of experience - as students of such tactics. The arrogance of it! Maybe she could teach us to suck eggs too - yeah right!
Great post, I have been at the recieving end of MN when I was foolish enough to have empathy or feel sorry for them. Thats when the narcs tone of voice turned evil and there was a sick gleam in there eye. Even if they appear to be behaving, just wait a moment because that is when you will get a knife in the back. It is so true the MNs want to control and destroy. It is a tricky twist they play, You wrote - they want us to be capable of empathy so they can exploit us. So very true. In turn the hate us even more because we are human and have empathy. They then find endless ways to fuck with our minds and insult us on the sly and try to destroy any happieness or humanity we have. It brings them such joy. Thank you for writing your blog. I am so glad I am not going to be so easily manipulated by these MN. I also come from a family of Narcs. It is a dangerous and deadly thing to be around, a malignant Narc. MG
ReplyDeleteMG,I too used to pity the poor narcissist. I made excuses for them, gave them the benefit of the doubt (they didn't really mean that) and treated them with kid gloves to avoid their rage and narcissistic tantrums. Their vile nature controlled me because in order to keep the peace the onus was on me to behave a certain way - as an adult baby sitting a nasty spoiled brat. They will never do anything to alter their behavior. They think they're perfect and it's up to us to adpapt to them and be "complaisant." Get real narcs! I say if you have to deal with them at all, you should have your guard up and show NO chinks in your armour. Treat them like the predators they are. Empathizing with them is the worst approach. It's like willingly putting yourself in harms way.
Delete"And the dish ran away with the spoon.." BWHAHAHAAA! That's exactly how much I need to know about the "Etiology of Two-Legged Predators" aka, MNs. Yeah, if we talk it to death by citing bogus "Studies," "empathize" it beyond reason with careful word-smithing and blame-shift the very real evil these Predators do to the VICTIMS of MN abuse, somehow that makes MN's "acceptable?" A bit more palatable?
ReplyDeleteSo, what about the VICTIM'S "Wounding?" Of their REAL "selves?" Repeated intentional infliction of damage to others particularly their own family members ("Yum, yum, tasty lil' morsels of kids," says the Predator Parent/Sibling) is nasty. Period the end. They do it because they get off on it. They do it because they CAN. They do it because they're (evil) aberrations and an affront to humanity.
My empathy remains with the abused, not the abusers. I do believe "Depthpsych" hit a "Depth Charge." There, that's the "etiology" of their convoluted thinking ;)
TW
Seriously. What about the VICTIM'S "Wounding?" or their REAL "selves?" Talk about misplaced empathy. But that's to be expected with someone like "DepthCharge." Hey, if you can concoct a way to get these Two-Legged Predators in therapy, you can make some real $$$.
DeleteTW, I just figured out what you meant by "Depth Charge." BOOM! Haha, good one!
DeleteI always love the 'well he had a horrible childhood/she was abused" etc excuse for horrifying behavior. Because if that was Cause & Effect, then every single person who lived to walk out of Auschwitz or the like would have turned out to be a narc, an abuser.
ReplyDeleteI have sympathy for someone's pain and 'crazy' and suffering. But when it impacts anyone else but THEM, I want them to grow the fuck up, or die. I have NO sympathy for anyone who refuses to stop abusing. None. I wish them death, nothing less.
Gladys!
DeleteI agree. Grow the fuck-up or die. This so-called disorder that they are beset with makes everyone suffer but THEM. I too have no sympathy for anyone who refuses to stop abusing. That must be what DepthCharge meant by their "plight." These poor Narcs just can't stop a abusing.
Lisette, About a year ago i went NC with my MN parents. I live a about 1000 miles or so away from them. In the time I have had no contact with them I have realised I totally had to walk on eggshells around them, ignore horrible comments and pretend everything was just great.(Even though my life w/ them has been a type of horror story) This must be a sure sign you are dealing with a MN.I realized this was completly insane. In the past if I ever confronted my MN mom she would go into a screaming rage, so I quit confronting her. I just realized one day I had to walk away or continue the legacy of evil.It is evil, I was manipulated by my ignoring mom. Her brother sexually abused me. She says she had no idea. I dont know if thats true because I can never trust my parents. Because I live far away it has been relativly easy to avoid them so far. But I have this instinct, they are not finished. So I will keep my armour on and be ready for flying daggers and biting teeth. I have to watch them torture my siblings, which is re enforsement for me to stay away from them. Some of my siblings have gone NC also. There has been almost complete silence from my Nm since the day I told her about her brother. I know the time will come where she may just show up @ my door or I will have a conversation with her. I will remember the TRUTH of everything and know that i am in control of my emotions. I really believe my parents are dangerous. Its hard to for people to understand this concept if they havnt had a MN family member. I know I can always call the cops if worst comes to worst. Your explanations of the MN "parent/person" behavior has been very helpful. I look foward to trying my damb hardest to never let a MN enter my life again. I am done dealing w/ my parents and a few other narcs.This has been difficult, almost like exorcising these people from my life. I know it will get better, these MN underestimated me.Thanks 4 letting me vent! MG
ReplyDeleteMG, vent away. So true, you can never relax around a MN/N parent - egg shells for sure. I'm glad to hear you are NC and have removed some other dangling narcissists from your life. Also good to hear the MNs underestimate you. I'm sure you'll be prepared, should they be stupid enough to try and pull any stunts.
DeleteLissete, Also, after reading your blog, i wanted to say sorry you had to go through so much abuse from your family. It was a lot of terrible abuse, insanity and crap. Glad you made it through. It is good to know there are survivors and that people do get beyond MN abuse. And then fight back exposing Narcs! MG
ReplyDeleteThanks MG.
DeleteYup, we are all fightin' survivors here!
Wow, Lisette, great blog! I loved reading everyone's posts here - as I, myself, am the scapegoat of a narcissistic family. But I'd like to tell you what I've begun doing as a way to 'even the score' with my toxic family - because now it's MY TURN! Now when they try to 'set me up' in order to abuse me, I quickly figure out a way to turn it all around to my advantage and make THEM the target! That's right - I will get clever and creative and throw that curve ball right back at them! Just recently, I celebrated a milestone birthday and there was...well...nothing from my family. Soon thereafter, my sister-in-law (my GC brother's wife) celebrated her birthday and there was an enormous fanfare! My narcissistic family made certain that this gala would be held on a night that I was off from work so that I could attend. Well, I didn't attend and instead chose to ignore them all - especially my GC brother and his narcissistic wife. For Christmas, I gave them absolutely nothing to make them understand just how hurtful and abusive their behavior was. In addition, because I just KNEW that my GC sister had her hand in all of this, I decided to simply ignore her and not give HER a present for Christmas, either. Well, guess what she gave me for Christmas? A rosary! As if to say, "Oh, you poor thing, here...you need God in your life!" And as a way to be 'subtle' about it, she decided to give me another little trinket. Guess what? I sent her an email telling her just how much I loved the trinket and wished her a wonderful new year (sarcastically, of course). Then, a few days later when I went to visit my NM, I hung the rosary up around her Virgin Mary picture on the living room wall. I'm sure my NM will tell her what I did. Now, she knows where we stand - which is NOWHERE! I feel so empowered by all of this and am bracing myself for the next curve ball because I WILL be ready for it. May the Good Lord deliver us from ALL of the MNs in our lives.
ReplyDeleteMy nfoo always ignored my birthday and celebrated everyone elses.Even the in-laws birthdays. It was pretty hurtful.
DeleteI hope you are NC with your nfoo. Narcissists are always going to hurt us, it's what they do and nothing is going to change that. If we as adults choose to be in relationships with narcissists then we are going to be abused, period. I choose not to be abused. That means no relationships with narcissists. I don't have the energy or desire to endure a relationship, always on the defensive and always on guard, with someone I don't even like. I don't give a damn if I'm related to them. In fact, if they're a relative it just means they're more dangerous.
DeleteLisette, I've been nc for years. But as you know, it still stings. Just not like it use to. Not to long ago, they did go through somebody I know to let me know of my nparents illness. Guess they though I'd give a damn.
DeleteThat's good to hear. NC all the way!
DeleteYes, the memories do still sting a little. But once I wrapped my head around this MN thing I didn't take it quite as personal. I figure a predator always needs prey, better someone else than me.
"I figure a predator always needs prey, better someone else than me"
DeleteGood point.
Right. A wounded tiger is still a tiger.
DeleteAnon,
ReplyDeleteAwesome! I laughed out loud when I read about the email you sent your GC sister. She must have been scratching her head and thinking, "Huh?" Your "family" has sent you a pretty strong message about how they feel about you, I'm glad you sent them a message back.
"Now, she knows where we stand - which is NOWHERE!"
I love it!
So many of us have taken the high road when it comes to narcissists and their abuse. No more! It stops with us!
Excellent and truthful post. People have been brainwashed into thinking that we need to be sympathetic and nice to the narcs because they have a "disorder and need help." I have no sympathy for them... People look at me as though I have no heart because I won't feel sorry for them.Their thinking is just as distorted as the narcs.
ReplyDeleteYes, it's the good old blame-the-victim mentality. Everyone blames the victim for the abuse they've had to endure, including the narcissist. The narcissist's attitude is, "Well, if you weren't YOU then I wouldn't have to abuse you. You have a lot of nerve to exist, how dare you be YOU. Can't you see all the trouble you're causing ME by just by existing!"
DeleteI wrote off the narcs a long time ago. Feeling sorry for them just doesn't compute in my brain. I have more compassion for rabid dogs than I do narcissists.
The "turn the other cheek" and "forgiveness is best" mindsets are dangerous ones designed to keep avenues open for predatory attacks, IMO.
DeleteI do believe in love as the most effective mindset in life overall, but I'm talking real and radical love, not the mamby pamby counterfeit sort, and authentic love is action and often brutal action (in the sense of throwing that ball back where it came from when needed as much as possible).
"So are we supposed to “empathize” with the vile narcissist because their real-self flew away? Yeah right. And the dish ran away with the spoon."
ReplyDeleteNothing has made me laugh harder all week long! The icing on the cake had to be the intermittent break out of the thesaurus... Seriously, I'm sitting here alone in front of my lap top still giggling my ass off!
For years now, I was thinking that my mother was some kind of cross between BPD, NPD, and AsPD. Even though I was in the Cluster B ball park, no description of any of this seemed to capture the level of malevolence that I've witnessed with my own mother...until I was introduced to this blog and hit the mother load. The posts that I initially read actually made my skin crawl because it felt too familiar - it was almost like you interviewed her evil ass in order to write them.
After attaching an accurate name to the behavior, I have to confess that I got really curious. I spent a lot of time doing all kinds of research about how/why/when this happens...until I got bored and decided that I didn't give a f*ck, I mean seriously, who cares?
I also have no pity for them. Why? Because they know the difference between right and wrong, yet choose to do what feels good at that moment in time regardless of anything else. How do I know? Because I've seen my own mother behave different ways in front of different people. If she didn't know whatever she was doing was wrong, her behavior would be consistent regardless of who was around. She committed crimes, yet knew enough to cover them up. Did that bother her? Nope. That bitch was able to pass a polygraph test without batting an eyelash, only to come back and brag about it later.
I reserve my pity for the victims of the MNs, especially for the children who grew up with vile pieces of shit like this for parents. The world would be a better place if all Ns just sterilized themselves...And just in case there are any people reading this thinking, "But if Ns were sterilized, you wouldn't have been born." Yup, I'm aware, and my position remains the same.
ANON
Big smile, ANON... Nope, HUGE smile. Right on! I stand behind you on your position. I'll take it to the grave.
DeleteHi Lissette; my malignant family is so crafty and believable by others that after they heard how hurt i was that after my diagnosis with breast cancer and a double mastectomy they didn't even send a card or left a message on the phone they chose to get revenge on me. they convinced some of the people in my community who have been supportive that I am faking.Two of these are people who went to the hospital and waited in the waiting room while having surgery. these are people who have seen the scars where my breasts once were. these are people who i chose to be my family when i realized my own cause nothing but pain. so,after i finally initiated the no-contact rule[ which actually they were happy about] they still don't stop.BTW these same people convinced my daighter that my late husband was faking leukemiaa a few weeks before his death, which has caused my daughter emotional problems and my husband to die thinking his little girl hated him. So now, rather then feeling empowered by breaking away, I feel hopeless that I can ever escape their evil.
ReplyDeleteHi Anonymous, Tundra Woman left a comment (below) if you get a moment to read it, and respond to some of her questions that might be helpful. From what I gather, you went NC and your MN family continues to slander you to the people in your life that you trust, and who should trust you.
Delete^Anon, Can you say a bit more about feeling "hopeless" post NC? Are you saying you feel hopeless because you're on the receiving end of a Smear Campaign courtesy of your family? I'm not quite following you in that you state you initiated NC and "they still don't stop." Do you mean they don't stop trying to contact you or they are engaging in a Smear Campaign? How long have you been NC?
ReplyDeleteThere's lots of "good stuff" on this Blog you'll find very validating re: What to expect post NC including predictable tactics (such as Smear Campaigns). Also, if you look at the link for Luke Ministries you'll find a really great Post on "The Surprising Tactics Abusers Use Post-NC" (para) which, in a nutshell, says expect the abuse to ramp up and speaks to this paradoxical response as a predictable out-growth secondary to NC from a NFOO.
TW
I went NC about 6 months ago, which was 6 months after my mastectomy[yesterday was my "canniversary" It was the cruelty heaped on me at the time of diagnosis that finaally made me realize I could not fix them and that whatever I did they would hurt me. I have high functioning autism [ other than home, I could not speak until 14 years old. I still rock, walk on my toes, do the wrist thing, have extreme anxiety and am definitely socially retarded though I have gotten through life fairly well by learning "scripts" of appropriate reactions, etc.] and we tend to be gullible and trusting way too often.
ReplyDeleteI feel hopeless because i truly believed I was a part of a community that cares[ no, i KNOW they cared] I believed after NC they could no longer hurt me. I still cannot believe that they were able to convince my friends [ex friends.] that I am lying about my breast cancer. As I mentioned before, some of these were friend who waited in the waiting room for me during surgery. one of them [i was one of her brides matrons] held my head when i puked over the toilet and helped me pick out wigs] anyway, I am starting to cry just thinking about this and thank you for responding to my post.
I went NC about 6 months ago, which was 6 months after my mastectomy[yesterday was my "canniversary" It was the cruelty heaped on me at the time of diagnosis that finaally made me realize I could not fix them and that whatever I did they would hurt me. I have high functioning autism [ other than home, I could not speak until 14 years old. I still rock, walk on my toes, do the wrist thing, have extreme anxiety and am definitely socially retarded though I have gotten through life fairly well by learning "scripts" of appropriate reactions, etc.] and we tend to be gullible and trusting way too often.
ReplyDeleteI feel hopeless because i truly believed I was a part of a community that cares[ no, i KNOW they cared] I believed after NC they could no longer hurt me. I still cannot believe that they were able to convince my friends [ex friends.] that I am lying about my breast cancer. As I mentioned before, some of these were friend who waited in the waiting room for me during surgery. one of them [i was one of her brides matrons] held my head when i puked over the toilet and helped me pick out wigs] anyway, I am starting to cry just thinking about this and thank you for responding to my post.
Thanks so much for clarifying. It sounds like you've had some pretty traumatic events recently (the dx., surgery/chemo etc.) and realized your FOO was not going to be any more "supportive" than they had been previously. Now you're on the receiving end of a Smear Campaign for sure and I am sorry; this is typical post-NC response. Six months is pretty early in the process of putting your life back together after years of MN abuse: It WILL get different, it will get better. The way you're feeling today is not the way you're gonna be feeling forever. But when we're going through this, it feels unbearable and never ending.
ReplyDeleteA previous Post, "Never Show Vulnerability to an MN" speaks to the Predatory tactics MNs use when we're at our lowest and most in need of support. Your "friends" (the community to whom I think you're referring, correct?) who choose to believe your NFOO rather than you really weren't "friends" and that's another huge loss to be grieved. Responding to ridiculous allegations etc. is a waste of your time, energy and effort-you need all you have to focus and concentrate on regaining your health post-surgery/chemo. Please remember the end of this story hasn't been written yet, Anon. It takes a lot of courage to terminate a relationship with the MNs/FOOs just as it does to deal with a major illness.
Methinks you have far more inner resources than you yet realize. Again, please keep reading here as well as the links to other great sites. You're not as alone as it may seem right now and I'm pleased you found your way "here."
TW
Anonymous, I hope you get a chance to read TW's post (above). Her words are very encouraging and helpful. I really do feel for you, anonymous. It is difficult, at the best of times, to endure a MN Smear Campaign so I can only imagine how difficult it is for you to endure one with all the other challenges you face. I too am pleased that you utilized your inner resources to find your way here. You are here and that is a good thing. And you are stronger than any of those narcs will ever be.
ReplyDeleteI want to add that I also feel for you, anonymous - You've been through so much and are still in a position of having to fight at a time where you should be able to relax a bit.
ReplyDeleteThe other part of this is pulling at my heart strings is that my own daughter is high-functioning autistic - she had the whole delayed speech, wrist thing going on, and lots of social anxiety. I love her more than anything and have dedicated many years to getting her the treatment that she needed to survive in this world. I spend the rest of my time doing anything I can to make the quality of her life better, including doing a lot of talking to her about her feelings and explaining things to her that she just doesn't get (she still has problems with figures of speech and some non-verbal cues)... If anyone attempted to harm her in any way, I would all but kill them.
This is the response of a normal mother, which is the exact opposite of what you have. I am so sorry for all that you've had to endure, but am glad that you found us. I hope that you hang around, keep reading and keep commenting - it will give you the courage that you need to keep fighting.
Big hugs to you, Anonymous. You're stronger and more amazing than you even realize.
ANON
Wow. Lotta theory all over. Here's the answer: they're two. And no one ever forced them to act older than two and pay the consequences. Except me. I always figure out a way now to rub their shit in their faces but look like I'm not trying to do that at all. I make them ACCOUNTABLE for their nasty behavior. Then walk away happy knowing I have fucked them up a little bit like they fuck with everyone else. WAH! Look what you did in your diaper! Oops. Gotta go.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, I love it! They are all just big babies. When I picture a narc, I often see Baby Huey, you know that cartoon of a gigantic, over-grown duckling with that annoying meebly voice? They are ridiculous and some of them get away with their crap without consequences all their lives. When a narc poops in their diaper just leave them to wear it. Oh yeah!
ReplyDeleteOK, Anon and "...Lotta theory all over here."
ReplyDeletePlease give some concrete examples of "...a way now to rub their shit in their faces but look like I'm not trying to do that at all." Apparently, you're not NC with a *Family Member.* And please explain how you "(always) made them ACCOUNTABLE for their nasty behavior."
How did they *own* their "accountability?"
And how are you certain you're dealing with an MN Family Member? I await your response with an eye towards *specific* examples. Thank you.
TW
Me too! I would love to hear how it's done.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately after 30 plus years of dealing with MNs, I haven't quite figured this out how to make them accountable for anything. Hell, I could never manage get any of them admit to any wrongdoing, much less *own* it.
ReplyDeleteDo I see a "How To Make a MN Eat Shit Pie" blog post in the near future? :)
ANON
believe I know how to make a MN eat shit pie. I saw The Help. All you have to do is bake one, and serve it to them under the guise of begging for their forgiveness. Those MNs are pretty dumb, I think they would eat a bull-shit apology right up.
ReplyDeletePs. I'm not a great baker so I would have to use one of those ready made tenderflake pie crusts. Producing the shit filling won't be a problem for me.
Yes, that was a perfect example. But it's possible to have fun without that much work. I have an ex personal service provider ( N/soc/Borderline) who did a pretty good job ( for awhile, until I caught on) of making me think she was a great friend so she could extract more money from me. ( and did, for awhile until I decided she had to go -- her specialty was "come closer so I can appear nice and concerned about you, then fuck with your head, take your money and reject you.") Anyhoo, once I caught on to how much fun you could have with these folks I began doing stuff like when I was on the phone with her and she'd suddenly "have to get off" ( have you ever noticed that these folks have ZERO problem with the sudden abandonment with no easing out conversationally that they have to go? Like a guy "pulling out" for no reason) she'd say ( Oh, I also forgot to add this, whenever she called me she was ALWAYS in the middle of some sort of planned chaos that would give her an easy escape when she'd done the bare minimum of "appearing like a good friend" bullshit, like she'd call from the drive thru of a fast food restaurant or with a car full of screaming kids that she was taking somewhere) She'd suddenly say, "I gotta go. I'll call you later." Now while I was in Useful Idiot mode ( for YEARS) I would believe her, not get a call (of course) because narcissists never follow thru unless there's something in it for them, I would typically call her her again and of course the call would go to voicemail. Cut to No Longer A Useful Idiot Fun Mode. "When she would say "I'll call you later,"I would say, "Okay, but I won't expect your call." DROVE HER NUTS because it robbed her of her control. If you can find ways to rob them of their control that's the best drive crazy tool you have. See they're the truly fucked up ones, but they need to look like they're not and project the fucked-up on onto you. So figure out how to turn the tables on them. If your relationship is about begging them for reassurance or guidance, STOP. Go elsewhere. Stop using them as supply. (They have none to give anyway. They're empty on the inside.) The only thing they ever provide are hooks so they can use you. These may seem like small, unimportant moves but they are very effective.
DeleteOkay, here's one example of many. I have ( had, I think he's officially sick of me and of course it's mutual) a lawyer friend I would take to the opera when the guy I have season tickets with is/was out of town. These are not just any tickets. They are second row center tickets that cost two hundred fifty bucks a seat. But I, being a generous soul, never made him pay. Ever. I just liked him and enjoyed his company because he's smart, interesting and plays classical piano. Generally I'd arrange for us to meet at 1:30 for a two PM performance. I like to get there a little early to have time to go to the bathroom first. Invariably this guy would breeze in at like 1:45 with no excuse and I'd have to scramble to pee ( there's always a
ReplyDeletea long line) and get to the seat on time because the performance starts 2PM sharp. And I'd be a flustered nervous wreck. Well one day I decided I'd had enough with this prima donna. After another no show at one-thirty I decided to go upstairs and listen to the pre-concert lecture, then came down around ten minutes before two to get him. He was a nervous wreck thinking he had been abandoned (always play the abandonment card with the N's. You know, like they do to YOU with no guilt whatsoever? These vampires have serious core issues around abandonment and it really gets to them. The next time I invited him to an event, an evening event as it were, I got there really early (like an hour ahead of time) to make sure I would have parking. To kill the hour I decided to go to a restaurant nearby and have a glass of wine before meeting him at the appointed time. Lo and behold, as I'm walking to the restaurant, I see HIM walking towards ME. He'd made himself show up an hour early to avoid the shame of getting abandoned again. You could see he was really uptight but trying to look casual and in control. One caveat with these creatures, if you get them to fall in line and behave like a normal adult ( in this case honoring a time comittment) they WILL find a way to punish you. (More on that in another post -- it's late here on the west coast) But as my therapist is fond of saying, "If they're punishing you, you won."
One quick PS, I walked away from the entire side of my mother's family when I realized they were all a bunch of borderline narcissists, so I'm very well aware of family bullshit on this front.
ReplyDeleteExactly, exactly, exactly. We're just like another arm or foot to them and they just want us to work correctly because when we don't it fucks them up.
ReplyDeleteLisette you began this topic with the question: "Is there a worldwide phobia on the existence of evil?" in your response to the smartarse psychology student who has the arrogance to think we are not aware of the psychological theories she parrots,and instructs us as if she was gifted with unique knowledge and we are ignorant bystanders who need her enlightenment to see the real picture.
ReplyDeleteI am extremely well versed in the pathetic one eyed, one dimensional religion of academic psychology, and not the only one here I am sure.
How dare you offer us your "expert" observations (for our own good!)Your apologist stance enables MNs to flourish by trying to exploit the sympathies of potential victims. I wonder what motivates you to protect their evil? Self-interest? Your comments are outrageous and enormously offensive. Fuck off.
Exactly! Outrageous and enormously offensive. I can't stand these jerk-offs. First, it's abundantly clear they've never encountered a malignant narcissist in their life, or even a N for that matter. Because if they had, they sure as shit wouldn't be "trying to exploit the sympathies of potential victims." They would be mad as hell and it would be clear to them that there is no help for these sick freaks. Second, there is ALWAYS a pay off for these pinheaded drones who expound lame psychological theories: They are trying to convince themselves that their University tuition wasn't a waste and they really can earn it back by exploiting the system for billable hours by diagnosing an N "treatable." A lot of billable hours. They all have an agenda that's for sure and they have a hell of a lot of nerve offering their "expert" observations to those who have actually LIVED IT. Bugger off! That shit doesn't work here. I wonder just how many of these arrogant psych students/therapists have had to come to terms with evil in their own parentage? And back to question at hand: "Is there a worldwide phobia of the existence of evil?" I believe there is and the people who are afraid of it want to deny it out of existence or make excuses for it. I guess there is some kind of pay of for those people. Again, that shit doesn't work here. Fuck off!
DeleteI'm reading all this after having watched the clip ( the tape the jury wasn't allowed to see) of Jody Arias, singing and standing on her head in an interrogation room right after she was arrested for the hideously cruel murder of her boyfriend.. All the forensic psychologists and "experts" (pinheaded drones) trying to make sense of her casual behavior here. Who could SING after such a thing???? Who could stand on her head???? A FUCKING PSYCHOPATH, DOUCHEBAG!!! DID YOU NOT STUDY THESE EVIL FUCKS IN COLLEGE???? Why did not one of these so called psyche experts simply tell it like it is? How hard is this? Why was she standing on her head? Well, she had already finished her things to do list that day which included lying about slashing someone a million times and she was bored. So she sang. And when the song was over she stood on her head. Then maybe when the camera stopped rolling she ordered in a salad and did a crossword puzzle while she contemplated who she might want to stalk and murder next when she beats this rap because all the experts seem to be baffled about her odd behavior and hey there may be a good chance that she's innocent and didn't really almost behead somebody. I need a drink....
DeleteWow! I have not been following the Jody Arias story, but that I would like to see: Some psycho standing on her head for literally getting away with murder. Now if that ain't a dance by the devil, I don't know what is. Yeah, the so-called "experts" playing dumb, or maybe they just are dumb, are so annoying. I have been on a TV news and print news freeze since I saw a big article on Narcs in my local paper and the "expert" interviewed was a psychiatrist/professor at the University/AND a local politician. Hidden agenda much? The article was absolute fluff and so misleading and totally irresponsible as far as educating the public on Narcs. I thought: I gotta write to the editor, this is bull-shit, but I didn't. Anyway, the next time I grabbed the paper I made sure to read the comments about the Narc article. The first one they posted said something like how "informative" the article was, how "important" it was etc. etc. And guess what the slant was in this article with a psychiatrist as its main source? That they are "treatable" and that we must have "compassion" for narcissists because some of them try... they really "try." I'm sure Robert Hare - who wrote "Without Conscience" and operates out of the same University as the Narc sympathiser who was interviewed for the article - was rolling his eyes big time. The paper was a free local entertainment rag, but it has HUGE readership. And not once was Hare mentioned in the article. Methinks there was a little politicking at work there.
DeleteYeah, methinks so too. Mealsothinks, that when these "experts" get on camera (their "15 minutes") that it behooves them as probable Narcs themselves to come up with the most outlandish and improbable reasons possible to explain psychopathic behavior because it makes their point of view so SPECIAL. I also forgot to mention that in addition to the acrobatics and singing, Arias was also chiding herself for not putting on a little makeup. I had to laugh especially loud at your last few statements (about Narcs being able to "try") as I got a call last week from a long-lost aunt of mine ( hadn't spoken to her in like 23 years) 89 years old, definite Narc who just "came across my name in an old address book and decided to try calling." After a few minutes of catching up it became clear that she was really calling to see if I could help her granddaughter get into showbiz and, even more important, let me know she had a boyfriend. (I'm single, happily, but she remembers me from back then when I must have been unhappy about it.) For twenty minutes it was the boyfriend, the boyfriend, the boyfriend, the boyfriend. As I was happy for her, I'm sure she didn't get the rise she was looking for. Come to think of it, it's probably why she kept trying to hammer it in every five seconds. Duh... But the point here is SHE'S 89 AND SHE HASN'T CHANGED ONE BIT. ABSOLUTELY NOT ONE BIT. Didn't the psychiatrist you refer to ever come across the words, "enduring and pervasive". They only appear to change when they want something and then they go back to being who they really are when they get it. Or DON'T get it.
Delete89 years old a new boyfriend?... Ah, to be young and in love.
DeleteNo they don't change at all and "enduring and pervasive" is exactly it. Sure, they may "try" only when they want something, and as soon as they get it *poof* they go back to default position.
I'm going to search for the Jody Arias "Devil Dance." Curiosity has gotten the better of me, and it must be all over the internet.
" Yeah,the so-called "experts" playing dumb or maybe they just are dumb"
DeleteExactly. I think a lot of them are narcs themselves and even the ones who aren't, have an agenda. What gets me is when gullible people eat this up as though these "experts" know all.I've heard people say that people shouldn't diagnose anybody and that we should leave that to the "experts." Well, the joke is on them sense most of the "experts" are narcs themselves.
What this bullshit does is to get people who can clearly see Arias is one, sick crazy bitch into thinking that their perceptions are wrong and there must be a more enlightened/complex answer to why she would behave like this. My response? KEEP IT SIMPLE, STUPID. Lisette, you really do need to Google this psycho bitch to see how awful she is. Stalked her boyfriend, he avoided her, then got lured back in to having sex with her, after which she she butchered him in the shower then took pictures on her cell phone, etc.
DeleteYeah, 89 with a new boyfriend. Because I've gone NC with most of my mother's side of the family I was a little slow on the uptake with this one (it's been a while since I've dealt with the truly devious -- like taking too much time away from the gym and having lax muscles) and didn't really attribute quasi malicious intent to the call until I was well into it. Upon reflection, I can now see ( and by the way, I don't think "they" do this consciously at all, most of the time) that when she learned I was going to be of no showbiz use to her granddaughter, she was at least going to end the call getting some N supply for herself so she could feel like she could hang up the phone, one-up having gotten SOMETHING. I don't bring all this up to obsess. I bring all this up to show you how toxic they are in terms of targeting your weak spots and going in for the kill. The thing WE have to do is know our own weak spots so well that when they try to attack them we immediately identify what they're trying to do and get the hell out.
The so-called "expert" thing really pisses me off. These "experts" go to school to study "theories" so they can learn how to "conjure up" diagnosis so they can make $$$$. It doesn't "pay" to say this person is an evil piece of shit and there isn't a chance in hell for them. Simplicity doesn't bring in the big bucks. Anon, I couldn't agree more that this BS sends the message out to the masses that their perceptions are wrong and there must be a more enlightened/complex answer to why someone is evil. Mankind is being brainwashed in that regard because there's money to be made off our naiveite. They're not going to let us stop eating McDonalds and they're not going to let us stop thinking the so-called "experts" know best.
Delete"I was a little slow on the uptake with this one (it's been a while since I've dealt with the truly devious -- like taking too much time away from the gym and having lax muscles)."
That made me laugh because it's so true. Seriously, you always need to be thinking like a black belt around the truly devious. I always need a good work-out around narcs to keep me on my toes. But since I avoid them, I give myself mental refreshers and read things about them that will piss me off.
I watched Arias standing on her head. Yeah, she is definitely posessed. While she was upside down I was waiting for her head to spin all the way around and her body to stay in the same position.
Yes, that creature is surely from hell and I hope the criminal "justice" system escorts her back to her birthplace. Absolutely agree she is right out of The Exorcist. It's scary the degree to which the experts can manipulate perceptions by screwing with what you know to be reality and placing an element of doubt in your head. All this reminds me of what Chris Rock said years ago when everyone was trying to figure out the whys of Columbine: maybe it was the education system, maybe it was peer pressure, maybe it was bad parenting, etc. Rock said: "What ever happened to just, plain crazy?" In my book, that is Jody Arias' official diagnosis.
DeleteThis reminds me of something "psychologist of the soul" James Hillman
ReplyDeletesaid years ago to the effect that "after 100 years of modern psychology, people are sicker than ever". For anyone not aware of him, his view was that any psychology which ignored the existence, importance, capacities and variations of the human soul was bound not only to not help people but instead do active harm. That is also my view. His comments apply to any kind of academic psychology, whether behavouristic, cognitive, psychodynamic, whatever. They are all partial and self-serving theories which are used as tools to control and perpetuate reigning ideologies and oppression, not to maximise human healing and freedom. Only truth can do that, not theories. That is why the truth of our experience which we record here is so important. It's hilarious in one way that psychostudent would suppose that she could trivialise and discount us with her psychocrap, when we have collectively centuries of experience between us - amounting to thousands and thousands of years of experience - as students of such tactics. The arrogance of it! Maybe she could teach us to suck eggs too - yeah right!