Tuesday, 12 July 2011

Never Let A Narcissist Into Your Head

Our mind is our most sacred possession. And it’s much too valuable to hand over to someone who wants to trash it – a narcissist.  

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  1. Powerful! I've never been to therapy, mostly due to cost, and have gotten a long way working every day for over a year to read more, write more, meditate more, place boundaries down with everyone, end unhealthy relationships, walk straighter, say NO... I have changed a lot without therapy, and I am grateful for that and for your continuing posts, which are incredibly validating to me. I got chills when I read the psychic's read on your life. Incredible. Thank you for sharing.

  2. Wow, this is eery! I also had a psychic - and ONLY a psychic - tell me the truth about my father. That he is a dark, devious, controlling man. I said "My dad? Nah, he's cool." He said "Well, you'll see in time." I just remembered that a few days ago!

    I'm also very averse to therapy - mostly because I KNOW a lot of therapists personally and wouldn't even have a open chat with them. I have a post about it, too: http://pronoiaswriteofpassage.blogspot.com/2011/04/therapy.html

    I keep finding parallels!

    Love this post! So much good, healthy, pure anger! :)

  3. yaw yaw yaw! and i can relate. the thing i always found suspicious about therapy is the imbalance of power. they get to tell you how 'everything is' and you don't get to say jackshit to them.
    i remember my last therapy session. i uncomfortablye squirmed and told him i didn't want to hear his psychobabble story. after telling me for an hour how i should be myself and make demands, did he listen to my request? no. he went right on and told me his paragraph about some psychobabble concept of the big ego and the little ego and rote shit i already knew from reading. seriously, i couldve recited that shit to him.
    that shit was over. this isn't fucking school, man.

  4. Oh hell, Let's just call this post what it is: OUTSTANDING, IMO.

    (Just as long as you keep in mind ANY interaction with a MN is nothing more than an interrogation on their behalf, a very nasty "fact finding mission" and you can be sure the UN isn't invited.)

  5. Anonymous, what your doing is far more beneficial than talking to any therapist. Only WE know what's best for us.

    Pronoia, you crack me up.

    "I KNOW a lot of therapists personally and wouldn't even have an open chat with them."

    Haha, hee, hee!

    The psychic thing IS eery. I swear, I have more faith in what someone with a crystal ball has to say than a pinheaded therapist.

  6. Love your blog!! I'm an Acon and what you say is right on. Ns mess with your head. I know when I'm around one because there is just a lot of confusion, stress and anxiety. I stay far away from them but sometimes they come to you. There all over the place.

  7. This is an important post, and thank you for having the courage to write it for the world to see. You are amazing.

  8. superb blog! The word that most accurately depicts narcissistic abuse is INSIDIOUS. Cultish, even.

  9. Yes! INSIDIOUS: developing gradually with harmful effect. Cultish, brainwashing. As ACoNs we are tossed out into the world brainwashed and belonging to a cult, and we must de-programme ourselves quickly if we want to fit in among the normies.

  10. Yes, Lisette, this is a good post, but isn't it inherently contradictory? I've lived with a malignant narcissist for almost two years now and am getting ready to leave. When I do I want to forget him and his kind, remembering only what I've learned in order to avoid them again, permanently.

    Should we keep on dwelling on these loathsome freaks?

    1. Hi Cynthia, I fail to see the contradiction you speak about. perhaps you could show us the sentences which do this.
      Personally I like reading this site, not to dwell on our pasts, but to understand and also support others who have been through this evil abuse .
      Please remember that Narcissists, in my case an adoptive mother, are experts at implanting feelings of guilt and inadequacy into their victims.
      I'm over it, it took a long time to go from inadequacy to hatred to reduced everything, so it didn't exactly give me a head start in life.
      Some will be haunted by these feelings until they die. This site helps many people to overcome this.
      My personal saying is ,
      Every minute you spend thinking or worrying about a narcissist is a minute taken from your life and wasted on them.

  11. Cynthia, you make a broad based statement but you don't back it up.

    "this is a good post, but isn't it inherently contradictory?"

    Can you elaborate? Do you mean that writing a post about not letting a narcissist into your head means that they are in my head? Let me take a stab at that. First, the point of the article is that narcissists want to get into your head to control, manipulate and abuse you. Don't let them in. How is writing about that contradictory? Does that mean I'm being controlled, manipulated or abused by a narcissist? I write about my experiences, observations and insights on how the narcissist operates. I write a blog about narcissistic abuse with the hope to enlighten others or validate their experiences. I for one, would still be walking around in the dark if it wasn't for blogs that educated me. If the people who wrote those helpful blogs were "dwelling" on the narcissists - as you say - well I'm glad they did. But I believe they were people who simply took principled action to get the information out there. Maybe one day information about narcissists will be common knowledge. I hope so. Then everyone can avoid them before they get harmed. Maybe if you had an understanding of malignant narcissism you might not have gotten invloved with one. They are detectable.

    "When I do I want to forget him and his kind, remembering only what I've learned in order to avoid them again, permanently.

    I don't know when you "want" to forget him. Is it a choice for you when you want to forget him? From my experience, you can't choose to forget a narcissist or anything else for that matter. But you can heal from a narcissist. I can't control any of my memories. I can only manage them and the effect they have on me. If there was a pil people could take to erase bad memories they would never learn from experience.

    I won't forget what makes narcissists tick just like I won't forget that it's dangerous to walk down a dark alley alone at night. Narcissists are out there, they're everywhere and if you forget about their kind you might be susceptible to their kind. My mind is filled with all kinds of knowledge gleaned from different life experiences. Narcissists just happens to be one aspect of it. I find writing about the loathsome freaks interesting and rewarding.

  12. Cynthia, My condolences for having chosen a MN for a partner. However, the unchosen-we, the adult children of MNs did NOT choose our parents, nor could we walk away from the abuse after 2 yrs. Please, do not look back at your relationship with an NM in any way but a leaning experience for YOU. If it took you two years to figure out what was up as an adult, just try to imagine what it was like being born to a MN parent.

    I await your response. I do hope you have shrugged off the detritus of your MN CHOSEN relationship and looked internally to get a grasp on WHY, as an adult you would tolerate this crap for longer than a heartbeat, never mind a couple of years.

  13. I've encountered one of the most horrible human beings on facebook. He started out as a friend, who built up my trust, only to abuse it through manipulation and deceit. He eventually imbedded spyware into his photos, enabling him to key log my computer, equally enabling him to turn on my computer's microphone, and webcam where he listened to my everyday conversations with my husband, family and friends. He basically parroted everything we spoke of on the facebook newsfeed. After running a virus scan, sure enough we found malware and trojan viruses embedded. Never ever expected to feel such anger towards another person. How does one get someone like this "out of their head?"

    Thank you for your blog.

  14. I just found your blog from The Narcissistic Continuum, and found this article to be beyond excellent. It was so powerful and true. I look forward to reading more on here!

  15. Anonymous, thank you for your encouraging feedback!

  16. All Good points.

    I also had a psychic hone in on the narcissist in my life, and told me that it was okay to cut contact with this person.

    This psychic helped me more than anyone with a degree.

  17. Outstanding! I am an ACON, finally out of the pupae and looking around with blinking eyes in the sun and these are my feelings also. I have never felt I could trust a therapist, the imbalance of power has put me off even if I could afford it. Lately I would like to explore what areas I have not noticed myself and would like a brief time sorting it out but my experiences have been negative and I have found there is so much narcissism in therapists. I do not say all, I am sure there are many shades of grey but it is heavily weighted in my experience and the trust is so hard to find after the discovery of the lifelong betrayal and using. Well done, I have not encountered another ACON who holds this view, whilst I value all their points and certainly empathise with their history, it is wonderful when you find others who feel the same in the same areas.
    Swift healing to us all.

  18. My kid sister has put me onto this MN that describes our Mother to a T. I have cut off relationships with her many times over the years as I was very aware of how she could manipulate me and get me to do things I did not want to do or say. I have 9 siblings and she has delighted in keeping us all mad at each other and no one could every say why. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for this amazing blog. I too have not had success with therapy. Thank you for helping me to be aware of some of the traits that I have unknowingly been trained to do. After many years of searching and searching I have found my passion. I work with prisoners in a supportive role. I somethimes go off on talking about me or an experience that I have had. I catch myself and say wait a minute this conversation is not about me, it is about you and I apologize. Something I had to learn to do as I was never taught to apologize as a child or ever apologized to. Thank you also for helping me to understand how far I have come in healing. I have gone from being raised to judge and critize and ask personal questions to accepting people for who they are faults and gifts. I am so proud of the fact that I never even think to ask the inmates why they are there. That may sound crazy to some people. And, if you have been raised by a NM mother you will know exacly what I mean. Thank goodness for blogs like this. Sharing is so powerfull and healing. I hope others can share too and maybe, just maybe help one other person heal.

  19. Lisette,

    Thanks so much for posting this. I have read it over and over, but am still entangled with a malignant Narcissist/abuser. I am in such pain and anguish that suicide crosses my mind every single day. I hate him and I hate the situation I am drawn into. He has moved on to a new N supply (20 years younger than him). Now, he has her sending me texts to leave him alone and that he does not want me, etc. Her house was broken into recently and he blames me (and has convinced her I did it). Trying to save myself...... any advisement?

  20. Anonymous,
    No one can inspire more hatred in another human being - even the most gentle, peace loving kind - than a narcissist. In fact, that's a sign they're a narcissist - that they're absolutely HATED by those near and dear and others who have had the misfortune to cross their paths. One red flag of narcissism is that they are hated for "mysterious" reasons. Normal people aren't usually HATED by others.

    Rest assured your ex malignant narcissist abuser is playing the game like a broken record: you're crazy, the N has no idea why you're mad at him, you're responsible for the failed relationship, he's convincing everyone that something is wrong with YOU, you're out to get him and his new source of supply by breaking into her home. Bleh! Their strategy is sooo predictable.

    Often, it's our absolute hatred of these vile creeps that keeps us entangled with them. We want justice, we want to see them exposed etc. It's totally natural to still remain emotionally entangled by these strong emotions of HATE.

    But know this: the best revenge against a narcissist is absolute indifference toward them - not giving a shit whether they're dead or alive. All narcissists HATE that. They feed off our anger, and pain and it makes them feel powerful. I know you can't become truly indifferent overnight (it's a process of time) but for now, you can act indifferent to save your sanity.

    Narcissists NEVER change! He is the other/younger object's problem now.

    See him discarding you as a gift. You can now regain your SELF and live a life without his abuse. YOU are the lucky one in this scenario. The new object's hell has just begun... yours has ended.

    Leave the creep alone. NO CONTACT. Give him nothing, no ammo, no reason to mention your name. Play no part in the drama of his sick existence. He doesn't care about you. He never did. He doesn't care about his new source of supply either - not in the human true act of love sense.

    Hatred toward a narc is torture and it does drive people to thoughts of suicide but again, that's natural. But know this: your misery, pain, and torment makes him feel smug. I too have contemplated suicide over unbearable feelings of shame and worthlessness caused by narcissists, but what that is, is our anger, our RIGHTEOUS anger turned inward. We want to release the pain that the Ns cause us on ourselves through self-destructive acts.

    Try and deal with your hatred of this vile monster in healthy ways that don't involve him. Don't feed the narcissist! Nurture yourself. He has taken from you and will only continue to take as long as you allow him access to you. Again, he LOVES that he's got you all messed-up in the head... that's the only thing that narcissists actually love - making people squirm. Don't give him the satisfaction. Don't be his toy because all he's doing is playing with you - the object. Take the big baby's toy away - YOU. You're not a plaything. You are a human being that deserves to be treated as such. Let him play with his new toy.

    Please, please NO CONTACT at all. Sever all ties with this creep. Don't seek out, or take in any information on him. When anger bubbles up we can become impulsive and want to make contact, but just do what you can to let the anger subside and don't direct it at him personally.

    When it comes to narcissists, it's not personal anyway, it's just business to them. We humans are simply chess pieces. He never cared about you, and never will. One thing I used to say is that I would never commit suicide simply out of spite. I would never want to give the narcissists the satisfaction of winning. That's how they win: by destroying their victim. If you want to win this war/game the N plays then walk away and don't look back. Think of him as a cancerous tumour that has been removed... that's all narcs are anyway - a human cancer.

  21. Lisette, thanks so much for your response. This is the best advice I have gotten by far. Your words really resonated with me. I drove home tonight with the radio blasting and the windows down.... I looked into the sun and realized that I can someday be free from this asshole, and I have the power to break free.

    You may find it amazing that his new young NS is actually married (2 years) and has 5 children all under the age of 12. The youngest kid is 3 months old. I sent this naive gal a few articles on psychopathy and narcissism and tried to warn her. Her response was to give them to the MN (which made him despise me even more). She is too new to have witnessed any cracks in his mask of "fake-ness".

    I have a fantasy that she will one day wake up and realize that I was right all along. I anxiously await the call that says, "Oh my gosh, you were so right about him."

    You were also right about wanting justice. I just simply cannot understand why this MFN can go through life unscathed and never seem to reap any repercussions for his horrible, cruel, vile ways!? He seems to have certain key people amongst his "minions" that believe he is normal. He also hides behind the cloak of Christianity and attends church as often as possible and quotes scripture repeatedly. I so want to shake these people and make them see the light. I know, I was duped for a long time, so it is easy to see why they all are too.

    Thanks again for your response.... You have made me feel like I can win this game.... I will not let him defeat me.

  22. Anonymous,

    You're welcome, and all the power to you! "I will not be defeated." Thems fighting words - Right on!

    And the new NS sounds like a piece of work. Haha - those two deserve each other.

    MNs are masters of disguise. Most people aren't savy enough to see through their mask. I'm of the belief that many ACoNs have the most receptive bull-shit detectors out there. The detectors may not always be turned on... I sure never wanted to believe what I always instinctively sensed about Ns, but the key is to stay tuned into your radar. The victims of narcissists can become incredibly astute about people's motivations.

    I'm sure your fantasy will come true and the NS will contact you one day to commiserate. But most people don't believe this stuff until they actually live it... until then, they usually find the information vexing. So it's useless to try and explain to anyone what they will never understand until they learn the lesson the hard way. Besides, it's not your job to rescue her.

    Keep the light on yourself, the radio blasting, the windows down, and breath in that fresh fresh air of new beginnings!

  23. Lisette.... You are amazing! Every time I read anything you write I cry. Thank you so much for your wisdom, support, empathy, intelligence and inspiration. Someday soon, I hope to be able to write to you from the standpoint of a happy survivor who has made it through the eye of the storm and managed to come out on the other side of the spiraling madness. Keep on keeping on.... You make a big difference in this crazy world.

  24. I stumbled upon your website today, and I've really enjoyed the posts I've read here. I just have a tiny problem with this one - what about good therapists? I know they are out there, I have one, and at some point plan to be one. I don't think therapy should last forever, I think a therapists job is to help someone sort what they are unable to do themselves. If you follow that same logic, one should be unwilling to trust a medical doctor as well, as they have access to your entire body, not just your mind. Something I have learned is that N's will find any profession where they can be reveled and gloried. This includes any type of care giving profession. We know them though, as ACON's and we don't have to continue their services.

    I hate to see the baby thrown out with the bathwater, especially when therapy can be helpful to some.

  25. Anonymous,
    Really? As ACoNs we know them, and we don't have to continue their service? So we've stumbled upon a doctor (of any sort) and at some point we realize they're a narcissist. How much damage have they inflicted on us, up until the point of realization that their "service" must be terminated? What about other people who aren't ACoNs and don't know how these dangerous people operate? Should they blindly throw their trust, and their mental and physical safety into someone's hands simply because they are a doctor? My response to that is a firm no. Why should doctors be trusted anymore than an auto mechanic? They should be under much more scrutiny simply because they have access to our minds and bodies. There's a reason why there's a flood of websites out there where you can check-out doctors, and their patient's comments about them (positive, negative and everything in between).

    You wrote: "Something I have learned is that Ns will find any profession where they can be reveled and glorified." Isn't that what the doctor credential does for them automatically? Sadly, people believe that because someone is labelled a doctor, and they've sworn a Hippocratic Oath, that they will not harm them... "But he's a doctor.." Ha! "But she's your mother..." You see where I'm going with this?

    It's high time people wise up, do their research, shop around, and then make an informed decision about whose hands they put their health into. So if you follow that logic, yes one should be unwilling to trust ALL doctors. Taken further, one should be unwilling to AUTOMATICALLY trust anyone.

    I didn't throw the baby out with the bath water. I did say, a good therapist is extremely difficult to find. Of course there are good ones out there, but there are many bad ones so we must be vigilant about protecting ourselves.

    Therapy isn't for everyone, just because you found a good therapist, and it has been helpful to you doesn't mean it's going to be right for someone else. Hey, I have a really good astrologer! She always nails my monthly forecasts down to a T. She's helped me alot. You really should see an astrologer? I probably over did it on my point there... but I'm sure you get the gist of it.

    Frankly, I'm happy to hear that someone has been helped by a therapist, in the same way I'm happy to hear that someone has been helped by a wise grandfather.

    Society, the medical/mental health field etc. dictates that we should see therapists, and or, be pumped up with meds in order to solve (or put a bandage over) certain mental/emotional health issues. I don't hold that view.

    We have the right to decide who we turn to for help and what kind of help we receive. That's one of the points I'm trying to convey in this blog post. We have the right to do what works for us. We have the right to be especially wary of people who are in any profession that handles our most valuable posession - our health (mental AND physical). If anything, I'm advocating our right to self-preservation in any, and all circumstances.

    You have the right to your beliefs. I have the right to mine. That said; my beliefs are no more valid than yours... they just happen to be mine.

  26. I wasn't trying to invalidate your beliefs. Its true that we all have our own rights to decide how to move forward in our lives. I'm sorry if my comment was offensive to you. I wasn't trying to attack you in any way. I'll leave you to yours and find help in other places. Take care.

  27. Anonymous,
    I wasn't invalidated, offended, or feeling attacked by your previous comment - at all. You seemed to miss the point of the article (fair enough) and focus on the good therapist bit. My response was simply to drive home the point of the article.

    You wrote: "I wasn't trying to invalidate your beliefs."

    I wrote: "My beliefs are no more valid than yours."

    I didn't write no "less" valid than yours. I was making a point that YOU have the right to choose what you think and believe about therapy, or anything... just as I have the same right.

    You wrote: "It's true that we all have our own rights to decide how to move forward in our lives."

    Move forward in our lives? Don't know how that comes into the picture. I wrote about our right to self-preservation, choice, beliefs etc. "Moving forward" are YOUR words which seem to be attached, once again, to the issue of therapy.

    Your first comment wasn't offensive to me. If it was, I wouldn't have posted it. I thought it was valid. You have a perspective about therapy and you're entitled to it. I was trying to steer you back to the point of the article: my perspective on our right to protect our minds from narcissists, questionable therapists or ANYONE who is not safe.

    You didn't attack me. As I recall you wrote:

    "I just have a tiny problem with this one - what about good therapists?" I answered your question, and in light of your last comment, it clearly wasn't a "tiny" problem for you.

    Even after I took the time to respond to your comment - after you skewed the points I made in the article - you skewed the points I made in my response. Again, I had no problem whatsoever with your first comment. I simply wanted to clarify my point of view for you.

    However, your last comment leads me to believe...

    YOU felt invalidated, offended and attacked by my response. I also think you'll make a great therapist - you've got the projection part nailed and you lack clear comprehension of other's points of view. You're also very subtly manipulative.

    So long. And thanks for confirming (once again) that seeing a therapist - is more often than not - a useless undertaking. I wish you luck with finding help in other places. You might start by looking for a new therapist... you only seem to be learning their bad habits.

  28. I hate comments worded like that. I love the entry BUT i have one problem with this, i´d hate to see blerblerbler. "Now let´s all be reasonable here." Baby out with the bathwater eh?
    "I think a therapists job is to help someone sort what they are unable to do themselves."
    This is untrue. You do not help a person by deeming than incapable. In a profession that claims to "help people find themselves." The very statement drips with a certain arrogance, because when do you get to claim authority and judgement over someone´s brain?
    The other erroneous statement is "If you follow that same logic, one should be unwilling to trust a medical doctor as well, as they have access to your entire body, not just your mind." One, the mind is bigger than the body and more important. Therapists claim to have a monopoly over something that truly is to each his own. A doctor, a nurse, a whatever, is simple. They try to fix your body based on whatever they learned in med school. And really, its true, i dont buy into most medical crap either. You really don´t need a doctor unless you split your head open falling out of a tree or you get a heart attack. Then, yeah, of course, I need your help. It's a concrete problem with a concrete solution or help. But emotional well being, that´s higher than that. That´s yours.

    Thats why i don´t like sometimes when people say, in reaction to narcs, "Oh they seriously need therapy!"
    1. They say this like this is the biggest insult they know. Which it´s not.
    2. They don´t need therapy. they need the exact opposite. Therapy can´t help them. because what they need is to be in touch with THEMSELVES, to have access to their inner core, what they need, simply, is to take PERSONAL responsibility. But they dont. And therapy, which is just another thing that claims to have power over you, is just part of the same thing.
    3. Narcs arent salvageable and really, relating them to actual normal suffering people with issues is an insult to us and gives them 2 degrees of pity they don´t deserve.

    I'm not saying therapists are bad people. They just happen to have an imaginary job. Most of them are normal people with issues. But being a therapist doesnt seem to help them get past those issues and the therapists office is EXACTLY WHERE those issues can play out to the DETRIMENT of the patient. They need to take a step back and realize, shit, having a diploma don´t mean shit! We ARE equal people. I AM just a person. And the help of a therapist doesnt come from their job, their title, their smartness, their more whatever, it comes from their humanity (or their relative humanity to your crazyass fucking narc parents). But they will never ever replace you.

    1. You have put into words what I have discovered through experience with therapists. I very much appreciate seeing this articulated for the first time anywhere! Next time I am defending my opinion of therapy, maybe I won't be so incoherent with disappointment and indignation. Blogs like this have been so much more enlightening than the therapists I used to go to for help. Knowing and accepting (which has been a very incremental process for me) = the path to healing and freedom. Thank you for the work you are doing.

  29. Lisa,
    Yes! Yes! Yes! followed by air punches. Thank you for this comment! Your points are so well articulated. You brought up things that I wasn't able to connect with at the time, but thought about later.

    For example, you wrote: "One, the mind is bigger than the body and more important. Therapists claim to have a monopoly on something that truly is to each his own."

    Yes! It is sheer arrogance to not only compare medical doctors (who are REAL doctors that actually heal illness, and save lives) to psychiatrists who are nothing more than pseudo scientists who JUDGE our thoughts AND feelings based on what's going on in their own heads. Also, it is incredibly arrogant to think that they are ENTITLED to access our freakin MINDS just because they are a so-called "doctor". We actually need medical doctors, and if it's a medical emergency or disease then yes, they have, and should have (in most cases) the right to access our body to save our lives. If I was in mental or emotional distress, I would call a friend. I wouldn't walk into some head shrinks office. I already know I can trust my friend, and that they have my best interest at heart, and they are not going to place themselves above me as my judge. Judgment from an imaginary doctor on an imaginary pedestal is the LAST thing that someone with mental or emotional struggles needs. Love, support, kindness, nurturing, validation, belonging - that's what people need. That's the reason people who were raised in a family with love and support do not end up in a therapist's office. That said, it's the abusers who are keeping the therapists in business. And it's so narcissistic for them to think that they can "heal" us ACONs from a parental relationship - talk about assuming godlike powers!

    "Most of them are normal people with issues. But being a therapist doesn't seem to help them get past those issues...."

    Exactly. And all those therapist had to go through therapy.... proving once again, not only that it doesn't work, but that it's harmful.

    The medical doctors - the REAL doctors - don't think they have the right to get inside our heads and judge our "perceptions" and "feelings" about our physical health situations. So why should the imaginary doctors think they have that right? The best medical doctors are good at what they do, and are also ones that are known as having a good bedside manner - EMPATHY. Plus, there's been huge advancements in medical science in terms of the body, but there has been no advancement in mental health science. At least not in terms of therapy. It blows my mind they're all still stuck on Freud. I would say psychiatry is still at its anal stages. The only thing related to psychiatry that is moving at lightening speed is the production of psychotropic drugs because the so-called mental health professionals are mostly useless.

    Like you said, "The help of a good therapist comes from their humanity (or their relative humanity to your crazyass fucking narc parents). The truth with a twist of humour. My fave.

    Damn! You nailed it all to the wall. I love what you wrote! Thanks again!

    Ps. I forgot to thank "anonymous" the budding therapist (who thought they were in my head) for telling me how I feel - invalidated, offended, and attacked. Ha! And the arrogance to think that the comment would be offensive to me?! Senseless, contradictory, and naive - Yes... but offensive? No.

  30. One last thing: I hope one day the human race will look down on psychotherapy and meds as a primitive way of treating the mind, in the same way we now look down on the ancient practice of blood-letting (or bleedings) for curing physical illness. Hmmm. The patient isn't any stronger? Drain more blood!

  31. I love it! Yes! Double the number of leeches attached to the patients body. His condition will improve even if it kills him.
    If I could address Cynthia's comments about just getting shed of our N's and never looking back. This is a convenient and doable thing if the N in your life is a recently acquired romantic relationship (recent in terms of a whole life). I have always wondered about seeing see so much stuff on the net geared towards women and the narcissistic men in their life, but I see the wisdom in this now. They are two completely different interfaces with the personality disordered.
    It is not so easy to do with a parent. Just turning your back and never looking back when the N in your life has been grooming you to accept their abuse since before you learned to speak. I am not taking Cynthia to task. I am pointing out the difficulty of people with narcissistic parents. Our brain has been formatted to dovetail with their sickness and it takes an incredible amount of abuse for us to be fully aware of the toxicity they heap on us. The threshold is so high. It is all we know. Even after going no contact we struggle with guilt and feelings of obligation just about forever.
    About therapists. Need I point out they are a spoke in the wheel of an industry that wants to remove NPD from the DSM-V. I forget their rational. That it is too enigmatic to accurately diagnose I think. So of course if learned practitioners can not see it, it must not exist. Like in the 50 minutes you can hold a gun on these freaks and force one of them in front of a therapist, they will be swinging from the chandelier and throwing feces at the receptionist.
    Of course not. The therapist finally encounters the source of his patients mind bending frustration and finds them charming. Effervescent.
    Yes he concludes, there is such a thing as a narcissist. But the person you described to me would have been committed long ago.
    It's like asking a serial killer if he killed his victims. OH wait! Hold the bus. We were moving in to arrest the perp, but Sergeant Clancy here had the presence of mind to check with the person of interest and ask him of his guilt and he says he didn't do it. We gotta move on and back to the blackboard. We been chasing the wrong guy.

  32. q1605,
    Leeches is a good word to describe therapists. They leech off the misfortunes of others. Just like lawyers, they see us as "clients" and how much $$$ they can make off our "case". Lawyers drag out cases to make more money, therapist do the same. The only difference is the law is regulated, documents must be produced and matters must be resolved one way or another. What goes on in the secrecy of the therapists office remains there. Client/patient confidentiality actually protects the shrink. Therapist are operating unregulated and their so called "work" is nothing more than a crap shoot. They make stuff up as they go along and scrounge through the witch hunting manual in order to pathologize the injured party.

    My guess as to why NDP has been removed from the DSM is because they can't treat it, and they know it. It's like lawyers not wanting to go to court because they don't want to lose a case and have that on their records. Also, the powers that be probably recognize their likeness in the NPD description and refuse to believe there's anything wrong with it. They would rather label normal human suffering mental illness. Hell, there's big bucks in it.

    It's such a bunch of garbage. Every human brain is different. How the hell can the few modes of psychotherapy out there treat everyone. It's a on package fits all model and it's bull-shit! I had one MN psychologist snipe at me, "You're too complex! You'll always be tormented!" Ha! What a cop out. I was to blame for her failure at her witchcraft.

    The only therapists qualified to help others who have been harmed by narcs - IMO - are ones that have real life day to day face time with these freaks, not some flimsy text book understanding. Then they can educate and enlighten, and put the focus on the narcissist's pathology as well as the natural effects their crimes of humanity have on a person, thus empowering instead of taking away dignity.

    You made a good point about Cynthia's inquiry. It's a whole different ball of wax disengaging from the lifelong effects of an N parent then one you collide with as an adult. The N parent had our heads in "the paint can shakers" since inception. The human brain doesn't fully develop until around the age of 25, so even if you escape young, you've still got some deep rooted untangling to do. If someone hasn't messed with your head before the age of 25, consider yourself lucky. Then there's the whole social stigma thing attached to permanently severing family ties. I hope that stupid taboo someday get's tossed out the window.

  33. "They leech off the misfortunes of others. Just like lawyers, they see us as "clients" and how much $$$ they can make off our "case". Lawyers drag out cases to make more money, therapist do the same. The only difference is the law is regulated, documents must be produced and matters must be resolved one way or another. What goes on in the secrecy of the therapists office remains there. Client/patient confidentiality actually protects the shrink. Therapist are operating unregulated and their so called "work" is nothing more than a crap shoot. They make stuff up as they go along and scrounge through the witch hunting manual in order to pathologize the injured party."

    @Lisette - Fuck, that's so so true. Shit!

    Also, to the point @Q1605 and Lisette added on about psychos being removed from the DSMV, it's ridiculous considering narcissism is THE most textbook illness I have ever seen. Encountered a narc? You've seen how you can pretty much make a bullet point list of things they say. AND then they try to spend forever adding points and subpoints to catch all the 'shades' of human suffering. Well no duh that's not going to work! Cause it's all gray! The DSMVs doing the exact opposite of what it's supposed to do, or heck, what i THOUGHT it was supposed to do. Therapy don't work! It's a guise, it's a fake, it's a mask! Simple as that.

  34. Lisa: I am grateful to read this comment:
    'they make stuff up as they go along and scrounge through the witch hunting manual in order to pathologize the injured party'

    This way of thinking is nothing short of revolutionary. We've all been duped into the madness of therapy and therapists, who are teaching us simultaneously that they are superior beings who know what we need. What in their education has taught them this? Nothing! Isn't this the role of friendship? Community? God? When people have been crippled by bad families, it should be recognized as a kind of crime! My brother was severely abused and neglected by my family, and eventually had to be hospitalized for depression as a teenager. I was five. The talk at home was all about what was wrong with my brother. But there was nothing 'wrong' with my brother. My parents and other brothers had scapegoated him. They are criminals! They should have been put in jail for the abuse they heaped on him. It was too late for my brother. He eventually left this world too young, only 40.

    I've spent most of my life trying to understand and then escape from these people. Reading Lisette's blog helps so much.

  35. @Anon - Oh, Anon, that whole paragraph was actually me quoting a giant chunk of Lisette. Sorry, I didn't know how to make it clearer. But I'm glad you liked her quote.

  36. Well,

    I have been in therapy years ago and the therapist was kind of irritated that I never talked about his car (something like this, it wss years ago)Furthermore he stated that if I can't be helped by him, nobody can (again something along those lines). With the result that I was banging myself on the head why I was not interested in his car, and second I have lost years with starting to search for another therapist, because well, if only he could help me...
    Now I see he was certainly narcissitc.
    Btw I am 53 now and actually recently understood my (step) father a narcissist. So many puzzling things falling on its place.
    But I never forget how far he had me 'deranged' or whatever you want to call it.
    When I first went to see a therapist, because I had attempted suicide, I was convinced I was going somewhere where they will open my skull and fix my problems! so far off was I! I was convinced I was completely rotten and subhuman.

  37. This was therapy in itself for me. I'm sick of N's getting into my head. From this day forward, my brain is closed to anybody but myself. Amen

  38. Wow, BRILLIANT!!! I just figured out in the last week or so that my Mom was a MN, but it was insane b/c throughout my whole life.. she painted my DAD as the MN, when she was the CRAZY one!! Makes me so mad that she distorted my head like that for almost all of my life, but not only that.. that my stupid self made friends with other MNs, b/c of her. Oddly, I picked up on MN men, which I don't understand b/c it's a female-to-female relationship. But I see it in the sense that she totally Manipulated and controlled my Dad, who was a Narcissist, but also a co-dependent one as well. (so he did want to make her happy too). THANK you for this post, I know now to protect my head!!! Irene from California

  39. Hello Irene... from California,
    My MN mother also scapegoated my N Dad as the cause of all the family problems and I believed this for years!! He's an alcoholic so his dysfunction is obvious and I went to ACOA and AL-ANON thinking the family weirdness was ALL because of his drinking. But then I thought. Hmmm. The drinking wasn't really the problem... there was more to it. I gave-up on that 12-step stuff, and eventually learned about NPD. N Dad is an alchy, but the lesser N. MN mother and MN sister are full-on EVIL and CRAZY. For me, I attracted MNs and Ns into my life. But when I figured out they reminded me of my mother, father or sister they got the heave ho. I was a N magnet all around.

    It's great to hear you know how to protect your head. Those Ns are mind violators!

  40. This was epic for me to read. I am in a support group for those who had narc parents. It is nice to understand their experiences to understand mine better, but I don't think it is for me. For me to recover I don't need to get all personal with some stranger and then let them give me their advice like "you should...". Getting my OWN mind back is what I am after more than anything after being raised by a MN mom. I want to chart my own way out of the effects of her horrifying abuse with my MIND, MY way and that is what I set out to do so why would I want someone else telling me (therapist, support group people) HOW to go about it as if they know better? Shouldn't I know? It is MY mind. I get to choose exactly how I will recover. What I mean is I don't want advice/direction... just tools. This is like business, not personal when I look for help unless I intimately know the person. Am I missing something? I should be in control of it. I want to be respected and taken seriously. I just feel repulsed when people who try to help come off as know-it-alls. I am sick of them all. Like I am supposed to just follow their lead cause they know what I don't. What?! How is that so? I can't operate without my own thoughts. I just get trampled over and over again by know-it-alls. I approach getting help by spilling my personal life to strangers. I now know after thinking this through it is the wrong way for me to get help at this stage. I realize it is a trap for know-it-alls to take me for a ride into their minds. What about MINE?!! What about me. Am I here?

    I have more knowledge now to continue to pursue having my own mind and NOT feel as guilty and confused about it.

  41. Anon. No one knows the Narcissist you are dealing with better than you. It's astonishing how the underlying pathology of the personality disordered make them seem carbon copies of each other. But their little mo's make them snow flakes in the sun.
    They instinctually know just how to bend their victim around their own twist. Any one telling you what to do based on their experience with their N is ....bogus. It would be like playing whack-a-mole with a rule that allows you to whack in only one spot.
    Dealing with an N is a think on your feet challenge. That's why so many of us go no contact. When every encounter with your parent is a prolonged verbal chess match, it's just not worth it any more.

  42. Lisette - (well., one nice thing your MN mother gave you was a beautiful name.)

    I'm divorcing a seriously dangerous MN... and I feel lucky, at this point, to still be living. I can't stress the edict of NO CONTACT enough for those of us who have, unfortunately, misstepped into this trap. Of course, I feel, that to be attracted to an MN, we probably have had MN parent(s.) Though I've been too busy trying to stay semi-alive to have pondered this"tiny" detail, now that I have a little mind space, I'm having a long string of Aha's! and OMG's! and it's freaking me out. I mean, I keep rubber-banding between: I'm a dumb ass not to have noticed this pattern of abuse: and, wait, if my parents were Narcs (just like yours, MN mom, N drinkin' dad, head up own ass sister.) um, then how did I, how did we. escape the fate? OR did we? Anyway, that's the state of my mind as I navigate the horrors of divorcing an abusive MN.

    Oh, and BTW., for those of you considering Protection Orders and No Contact with MN-- Even though they are imperative to obtain, the MN gets REALLY pissed off. And though they are too cowardly to break these orders directly. they insinuate themselves into your lives by turning you in to the IRS turning you into Human Resources for writing emails on company computers ... etc... leaving you alone with a child and then savaging your income, quitting their jobs 2 days before divorce proceedings so they won't have to pay Child Support, etc..

    Mine entered my house whilst I was away and stole every valuable item, then returned things one by one (broken) through third parties (he was, however, kind enough to leave a hand drawn picture of a stick figure devil giving me the finger), he gave my car to his girlfriend (leaving me and our special needs daughter immobile, stranded me in mid-flight home by canceling my ticket, took our dog and broke her tail in two places (also returned her via third party,) forged my signature on a second mortgage, .total destruction goal. And now? A silence so eery that it's worse than the assaults, because I KNOW he hasn't just gone away nicely. (BTW, he left me for a new NS, not the other way around, which would be more understandable (but then, we are dealing with an MN, so it does make some convoluted sense).)

    So, yes, it is good advice Lisette has given, don't let them into your head. That, however, for me, is easier said than done once they've set about destroying you. I'd like to say: Don't Let Them Into Your LIFE to begin with!! Hopefully you'll be smarter, luckier, than I was and run like Hell when you first meet these"people" Good luck to all of us, and thanks for this blog Lisette.

  43. I had gone to a therapist early on in recovery. She was wonderful, a lot of work was done and progress was made. That was until there were real signs of recovery. Then one day she started to gas light,she was trying to undermine the progress with lies and double talk,she hinted in round about ways that the progress made was somehow a mistake and unfair to others that also suffered and somehow I should feel guilty.

    1. It's interesting how she went from wonderful to abusive. Hmmm. Maybe she had a few more payments to make on her credit card and didn't want to lose the income (YOU). Those therapists are con artists and crooks and the relationship is unsafe, period. I hope you called her on her crap and quit therapy.

    2. You make a good point. She was always jetting around the world every couple of months. The thing that got me is she had me believing that she respected me and was taking me seriously. I did call her on it and fired her the same day.

  44. It's amazing that after all this time of nc that every now and then the old tapes will play in my head. "you're a loser," "maybe they were right,it's your fault not theirs," "am I just imagining things" or "is this for real."

    Stupid abusive narcissitic B*******!!!

    1. oh Gosh ! YES YES YES. That tape is constant in my head toooo!!!!!! Can you believe how long this Sh@#$%!T stays with you?
      That sad thing is that we beat ourselves up and our N.'s parents aren't even thinking about it ------ At ALL.
      All these postings are correct you have to just let it go ! Because they want us to be upset- then they win!

      Let it GO !!!!

    2. Anonymous,

      You say the tape is constant in your head too yet you're preaching LET IT GO!!!! WTF? YOU haven't been able to "Just let it go!"... have you? For fuck sakes. You're on a blog about narcissism writing about how the narc tape is constant in your head. Obviously it's not a matter of "just letting it go."

      You say the N parents aren't even thinking about us yet you say they want us to be upset. Hmmm. Another massive contradiction. I thought they weren't even thinking about us. And if we are upset then they win?! Gimme a fucking break. First of all, if you are NO CONTACT then the Narcs won't know if you're suffering or doing happy dances on a daily basis. If you are NC then they know nothing about you so how could they win. Sure, if you allow a narc to remain in your life and you allow them to hurt you then you're giving them exactly what they want. Your choice.

      It's utter bull-shit to preach that having a voice and venting on a blog or even replaying a negative tape from a narc is letting the narcs win. Narcs demand silence from their victims. Narcs demand compliance. Narcs demand that you JUST LET IT GO.

      Fianlly you say, "All these postings are correct you have to just let it go!" Who the hell is saying that you just have to let it go? I don't read that in any of the postings. Oh wait a second... YOU are the only one saying just let it go.

      Tpyical narc. You are sooo full of shit!

      Why don't you just GO!?

    3. If I could let 'it' go I wouldn't be on here. Sweet apples, I used the wrong expression! If I could let it go, I would be happy, I wouldn't hear their voices and micro-managing in every thing I do in 'my' daily life, 'my' life choices.
      Yes I believe my parents don't 'think' about me. I meant to say that they 'think' about me in a superficial way. They don't 'think' of me as another human being that deserves respect and love. They 'think' of me like if they were to step in a pile of dog s*#t, and think 'what an inconvenience, it smells, looks bad, and on top of it is useless.'
      I should have clarified my words, I reacted to that tape playing because I now know there are others who have gone through the same systematic abuse that I have.
      I believe my parents don't 'think' about me, I believe that they have been evil for so long that their delusional world of abusing me and my older sibling (also a girl) is literally 'their world.' THEIR world IS 'the world.' They don't think that they are being evil, they think that they are right!
      Over the last four years I am starting to wonder if they have any conscience. I try to point out abusive actions towards me that go against 'fundamental normalicies in the civilized world' and they just don't understand. They are so FUCKED up that they don't realize basic shit like. HEY don't scream at your 40 year old daughter at a restaurant on her birthday and tell her she is fat, lazy and useless because it is humilating and not nice.
      My parents systematically abused and micro-managed me since I was a child. I honestly wonder some time if either parent 'realizes' just how fucking awful they were. They have been doing it for so long, and so verbally abusive, that sometimes I think it is so ingrained in their DNA and that now there are extreme 'hightened times' when I can tell they are really getting pleasure from it. My father's eyes practically role in his head like a shark and he gets this grin on his face, enjoying his 'kill.'
      I never said 'preaching on a blog and venting is letting the narc win.' It is the opposite. That is why I am here- I moved far away from my n' parents at 15- I have kept them out of my life as much as possible - Lately, it is very hard for me because they are in their 80's, I am mourning the loss of never having had parents. Never having had someone 'think' about me in real loving terms. I live 1400 miles away from my parents and have recently cut them off completely. My father is dying and he knows it and he believed he was going to be around forever. He leaves messages on my machine literally picking my life apart, every single thing I have done in my life, calling me a failure.
      Trust me if I could let this shit GO I would. I was speaking in dialectal terms, you can never let 'Go' of the abuses, memories, the screaming, you can let 'GO' of it in what some philosophers call the 'authentic' way: Only by 'remembering it' by realizing how awful the treatment was, how those people didn't see you as a 'fully human.' By knowing, remembering, one can 'let go' in an authentic manner, 'you can never let go.' It's dialectics, Martin Buber speaks about this in his 'I and thou.'

  45. Thank you Lisette for this Blog.
    I wish that I could say that I am the only person in the world who has been affected/neglected/ abused by an N. These stories are brutal - it helps to know that I am not alone. I am so sorry for everyone here who has had to live in the Narc 'hell' created by these types of people.
    I am just delving in deep into figuring out that I have been in a haze the last '40' f-ing years. Everyone here is helping so much, all the abusive actions and words inflicted on me by my Narc. parents were minimized by them- they believed they were perfect, my father referred to himself as 'god,' no joke- the struggles, the pain, the constant screaming, the memories, everything is still so fresh.
    I was just going to relate my therapy story:
    Growing up, Ugh, such a f-ing nightmare. I was treated like a slave in my house, my parents are northern Italian. Everything they did and said was so completely schizo. They expected me to do well in school, but really they never spoke about my studies, never knew what grade I was in, never said I would amount to anything, my father would tell me to 'become a dental hygienist' (nothing wrong with that but I am terrified of the dentist) so not such a great choice for me, they had no clue at all of my interests. They thought when I studied I was being lazy. They couldn't understand that 'studying' meant having to sit still with a book in front of you. They had me cleaning consistently, when I cleaned or did active work was the only thing they valued, that I was useful for : Polishing my dad's fucking shoes every night, ironing his f-ing clothes, socks ! underwear!, cleaning the house, cutting 2 acres of grass every other week, raking the grass by hand, watering over a hundred trees each night, tending a 40'x40' vegetable garden every day. IT WAS ENDLESS.
    I was never allowed to speak, if I did, my father would just put what I said down. I was stupid, didn't know anything. Our 'family' dinners where my father sat at the head of the table and my mother and I looking across at each other. I would get to listen to my father's achievements every night (I was basically an only child, my two siblings are 10+ years older,---I was a mistake.)I was never allowed to speak. I was allowed to get his wine, his cheese, his bread, what ever he needed. We had to clean the table off immediately when he finished, or he would scream. He would scream anyways, he did every day, violently, it was so fucking appalling. I was terrified growing up as he would be violent for anything: I didn't scrap the plate clean enough, I didn't load the dishwasher properly, he kicked me constantly for not doing things properly, his way, if I dropped some water on the floor for making tea!
    Anyways, my point is that I never had a voice: Even today I am still affected by it. When I was 19 I started having horrendous panic attacks, terrifying. I still worked, went to school (I moved out of my house at 15 - I finished high school early.) These attacks were debilitating. I was convinced I was losing my mind. All those 'family' dinners when my father would sit and talk to my mother about 'her lazy, un civilized daughter' (when I would be sitting right there!.) I would dissociate ( or depersonalize.) I didn't know what disassociating was at the time, but I would basically 'leave' because that is the only way I could be there and not completely break down, I would do this for long periods because the abuse was constantly.
    When I was 19 I had a complete break down, I literally checked my self into the hospital- I thought I was losing it, becoming schizophrenic. I was convinced. I wasn't hearing ((to be continued.))

  46. voices or anything, but I literally couldn't perceive my surroundings as objects, I was so sensitive that a leaf blowing was overwhelming for me, it was horrifying. It was like my surroundings weren't real, overwhelming. I also had a seizure in a repertoire cinema, and was rushed to the hospital where I found out I had a heart problem along with my fucking anxiety - I grew out of it, but it happens rarely now. My heart problem made my heart take off racing at any time and at speeds that were the equivalent of people on cocaine. God what a horrible time. The people at the Canadian mental hospital were so kind to me. They realized I wasn't shizo. and set me up with a psychiatrist who happened to deal with children.
    I saw that guy for 5 years! Four times a week! I have to tell you that he saved my life. I had tried to commit suicide twice, when I was 12 and 14, trying to leave the situation. I had no voice when I went to see him and I had never had someone to speak to about these things. I had close friends but they didn't understand, they couldn't believe it even when they saw it. It was the first time in my life that I spoke, that someone listened to me. (I know that sounds nuts but I wasn't allowed to speak.)
    The therapy worked for me. I struggled for years to avoid taking any drugs, my therapist never pushed it also. I worked out, ate well, tried to 'cure' my severe anxiety and depression with health. I finally went on zoloft at 29 (so I could drive on the highway again) and I never looked back ! Good health has always been important to me but the zoloft allowed me to live with out struggling every second of the day.
    Anyways, therapy was really my life-saver. I do believe that it can be awful if you get a terrible person (which I did encounter a couple of times when I had to go off to school :-( )
    It took me months before I said anything to my therapist. I literally would go in and lie there for an hour - It was a struggle for me to trust them. Gradually I believed that I could and it was really effective for me. I realized that I was not so defective and unlovable. I know therapy isn't for everybody, here in the states it is so expensive. I don't think that I would have gone on to become a professional in my field (not therapy,) had any sense of being a person who deserved anything without this therapists help. The therapy, was psychotherapy, gradually I learned to speak, to talk. I was so shut down until this time.

  47. I wouldn't go to group therapy for Adult Children of Abusers or Narcs because I have a sociopath sibling who plays the 'abused child' card but this sibling was much more abusive and worse than either parent. This sibling needs the attention and will get it in any way. This sibling didn't experience abuse as this sibling was the golden child. (I'm withholding the gender for better anonymity.) Because of this I no longer trust people who say they're victims of abuse because I don't know if it's a sociopath using it for manipulation/attention or if it's real.I used to believe anyone who said they were abused until I saw the abuser saying he/she was the abusee.

    1. @Anon - I agree about so called victims, or the poor me types. It took a long time to learn my lesson. Anyway, I am no longer playing the rescuer or co-dependant role. It's really hard to ignore someone who seems to be hurting and needing help/advise, however, based on past experiences I am witholding my sympathy for people I know very well or charity groups that I support.

  48. This blog has ripped off the nice guy mask that my memory tries to put on the now departed 3 year Narcissist. Thank God we didn't live together. Daily compliments and "I'm a very faithful guy"and "I'm a one-woman man". WHO says that every day? Now I find that I was his stable island,well under control, while he had two or three ladies all ages, any appearance, on the go as conquests. After three weeks without him, he started to try to seduce me like them and twice I fell in but didn't dream of getting into relationship again. Finally, when I declined a third seduction a nasty other personality slid out from behind the handsome baby face and good manners. Dark stuff! A real Shape Shifter. That's when I slammed down on him, let him have both barrels of truth (he called abuse) and said "any further contact, and my son will be asked to punch you OUT!" End of Narcissist contact. However; he has a psychic hook in me which keeps me awake at night. Have been advised to find a Master Reiki Practitioner who can cut that cord. A whole year of dreams turned out to have been intuitive warnings which he'd insisted was me being mentally sick. Off I went to the Psychologist. Useless.

  49. This article about how to never let the narcissist into your head has made me feel safe for the first time in my life. I slept like a baby last night, knowing I can control the narcissists in my family. Now I know some methods to deploy that will keep me safe. Thank you for explaining the steps specifically.

  50. I don't know about you, but for me...growing up with 2 narc parents...that...just getting myself to live creates so much hate in me for having to deal with this that I just don't care anymore...the social anxiety and trust issues which make me stutter and act like someone who is under investigation when meeting people...Just like you are with your narc parents all the time...maeh...and I fear that...no...I know that I will hurt others even if I try my best not to just by my emotional distance and defense mechanisms. Especially women, cause my sister was a malignant narc and I think every woman is always up to something. Can't enjoy relationships, can't open up. I can't for the life of me enjoy sitting at other people's family dinners no matter how nice it is, cause in the back of my mind I think the whole thing is an act, just like my family's dinners. The abuse has turned me into a rock with bullshit censors, a 30 foot fence, nightvision scopes and anti-personal fragmentation mines. Which then makes me a cold-hearted weirdo in their eyes. If they only knew what cold-hearted actually meant. I feel like just going into the woods and building a shed or something.

    1. I think it is really hard to be 'natural' or 'normal' with others many times when you have grown up with parents who are Narc.'s. If your narc parents were like mine they LITERALLY critized every single one of my actions or words. Undermiming <-sp?, critical, name-calling, I never could do anything correctly. I totally understand the fear of talking when you have been told (I was) that I was lazy and an idiot, that I would never amount to anything.
      I just wanted to tell you that I have been doing writing exercises to help with this. I have started reading this book called 'children of the self-absorbed: A grown-up's guide to getting over narcissistic parents' by Nina w. Brown. (I have read a number of anxiety books but I never could figure out why I couldn't really click fully with the content of the book.) This book is great and it is fricking time consuming to do the excercises (if you had s*%t bad n parents) but totally worth it.
      It made me realize why I stopped speaking, why I have the 'hate' and 'rage.' When you are a kid and never allowed to show any f'ing emotion other than obedience it is hard to figure out where all the hate comes from.
      Anyways, don't be so hard on yourself, the fact that you call your self a cold hearted weirdo makes me believe that you are a kind sensitive person who has gone through a lot and is weary, I think it is normal to question it.
      I don't know! I am so scared and I am so terrified that I am my parents that I will be like them (sometimes when I react in a way like my n parents would I shut down completely.)
      I found that book is teaching me how to love myself, how to care for myself and allow me to not be perfect or obedient.
      Sometimes I want to build a shed too far away. Take good care.

  51. Hi Lisette,

    I've been reading your blog and have found it and similar blogs helpful. I am an ACoN and a therapist and wanted to give my two cents on this post. I have been in therapy myself, off and on, and see a therapist currently. I think I can see both sides ( therapist and client) and there is inherently a power differential involved. It took me a while to get my current therapist to understand narcissism and why I chose to go no contact. She admitted she was biased in favor of maintaining contact, with strong boundaries, but came around to my point of view, and now supports it. I have not had success with some of my past therapists with this, and the therapy failed. It was a good lesson in my own work with clients to not assume I know what's best. It also speaks to the vulnerability clients have in this type of relationship. My first instinct was to stop seeing her, and give up on the idea of therapy again. I think a lot of ACoNs go to therapy in part for the validating aspect of it. But, this type of abuse is hard to describe. If you weren't molested, or beaten, or taken away and put into foster care, other people, therapists included, have a hard time comprehending the soul destroying nature of this abuse. I asked my therapist to read some things online that better described MN than I could and she did. That in itself was tremendously validating. But, it's hard to be in therapy if you grew up in an N family. You are right to be wary, and there are bad therapists out there. And all of us make mistakes. Putting yourself in a vulnerable position after being tortured by people who were in charge and supposed to help and protect you almost seems foolish. And if your therapist doesn't know about MN they can do some damage. I assume everyone reading this is familiar with the impact N parents can have. And that is powerful. These blogs and websites are so helpful to so many because they validate our experiences. After being told that nothing is wrong, these resources and survivors refute that. Bottom line, therapy can be good or bad. If you go into it with the knowledge and power that naming MN has, and if you have a competent therapist who can admit her mistakes, her biases, and act in a way opposite your N parent (s) did, it can be healing. You can be slow to trust and have firm boundaries with your therapist, and if something doesn't feel right, say so. I hope everyone has at least one person in their life who can fully support them as they heal from this abuse.

    Thanks for listening

  52. I too am the victim of a Malignant Narcissist. I had no idea these people existed until I got accosted by one. He took my mind away and left me an empty shell. He controlled every aspect of my existance. I am fighting to get away now permananetly. It is funny how they suck you back in. I live in fear every day. He is a liar, a cheater and evil. He cares about nobody but himself and boy does he think alot of himself! Really kind of sickening. Wish me luck and I wish every woman out there trying to get away from one of these devils great luck. What doesn't kill us makes us stronger.

  53. EXCELLENT! You sure you don't know my mother? I only realised the other day that one of her friends is also possibly a narc. I called this friend, and she is actually a PSYCOTHERAPIST!!!!! and she thinks my mother is WUUUUNDEFUL!!!
    Anyway I called this lady in LA about my mothers illness and she unexpectedly got into my my head by pressing me into telling her my feelings about it, 3 times she tried to knock me off balance with this. Replying that I felt just like any son would, was not letting me off the hook. So it moved on to what I was going to do about it. Again, I wasn't forthcoming, so she sent an email warning me that what I decided might have consequences on my own children. This lady is childless ,but I now pity her dog.

    1. Ha, yes, birds of a feather flock together.

  54. I want to thank you so much for the educational experience you just gave me.You see my husband had just came out of a 10 year roller coaster ride with a psychopathic narcassist that he was under complete control of and finally worked up the courage for the exit plan to get his life back.This is when I started doing the research on mental conditions related to personality disorders.I found that sitting through court sessions watching this woman he was being abused by physically, mentally, emotionally and legally fit every description of a narcassist.He described to me the most horrific nightmare I could never even begin to imagine living through that he wasted 10 years of his life on.The abuse, manipulations, loss of self worth and every ounce of self esteem and respect for himself still has me lost for words.She literally sucked every ounce of life out of him his weight was 123 pounds from malnutrition brought on by the major depression he was suffering from due to this vulture. He was working delivering pizzas at night after working 8 to 16 hour shifts as a chicago union laborer with the wages of 38.00 per hour for his skills to keep up with her financial demands for her clothes, makeup, jewely, and whatever else she decided he would work his self to death to pay for why she sat on the internet day in and day out dictating to him what he was going to do for her next. She refused him sex for up to 8 months at a time. He walked in early from work one day to find her riding another man in his bed not to mention how she hung up pictures of other men she had previous sexual relations with all over his bedroom that is supposed to be sacred in a marriage. She had stabbed him, busted him over the head with metal objects for forgetting to record her t.v shows kicked him in the middle of a deep sleep from working in his genital area because she wanted to go spend his paycheck at target, walmart, and kmart and he was to exhauseted from working. He was unable to go anywhere or do anything he wanted because none of his interests mattered only hers. His hair had to be cut to her expectations as well as shaved daily and only was able to wear the clother she allowed. He did all the cooking, cleaning, working, tending to the children that he also had no decision in making. She cut a hole in the condom with the first child to hook him into marriage and the second child she crawled on top of him and forced sex with him in the middle of a deep sleep 30 days after he caught her in his bed with the other guy. I guess that was her way of making herself believe that he would still stay and not try to leave. She knew his major weakness was his children as thats the only thing that kept him there at all. When he had attempted to leave her in previous times she used the children as a weapon filing falsified restraaining orders against him to refuse him contact with his children trying to force him to come back and even landing his child in the hospital with malnutrition to get him to feel sorry for her and come back. She told him the kids were getting sick because he wasnt there to take care of them that they needed their dad. This is a very dangerous sick corrupt individual we are dealing with right here. I am working endless hours to protect my husband from this scum. She will NOT win in her sick games to financially , emotionally, or mentally abuse my husband ever again. There is NO contact with this scum only through very vague e-mail for his children. We love the children with all of our hearts. Unfortunately these types of people are extremely deadly as they rank #1 in acting as well as manipulating court systems just as they do their primary victims that fall into the hands of these vultures. My husband was given visitation rights to his children that we very faithfully exercise. ALL transfers are done at the police department!! NEVER EVER appraoch these scums EVER without witnesses or law enforcement to witness all proceeds and protect you!!

    1. My exhusband is a MN, and he lost his rights to his children. The thing is, you are right. the courts will give them the benefit of the doubt in the beginning. Courts are corrupt, and filled with lies, and its assumed that everyone is a liar, until proven otherwise. So as the the trial goes on, MNs ALWAYS hang themselves with their own rope, because most of them leave behind evidence that is too inconsistent. Hang in there. Judges know this, police know this, lawyers know, this, you just have to play the whole thing out. After two years of trial evidence, my ex was faced with jail time, or termination of his rights. Whats funny, is that he ended up in jail from another estranged woman, and child about 10 years later. MNs can only take the power they are given, that is it. I hope your husband gets custody of the kids. Having you by his side, you definnitely paint a better picture for sole custody.

  55. Wonderful post. Much insight and wisdom - your clarity is so helpful.

    Still, the idea of lumping all therapists into one group, as with any bias, subtacts from the veracity of your other observations. Credibility lies in the demostration that you practice what you preach. Paranoia would not allow and may suggest self-righteousness.

    Some therapists are also survivors of emotional abuse. These folks are, absolutely, in a position to recommend skills that aide in the eradication of the infestation that results from someone having gotten in your head, even to a small extent.

    One might recommend moving away from emphasis on hostilily or victim-ness and moving to a place where residual 'power over' is released, because retaining hostility is still allowing 'power over'.

    But your insights are so strong and comforting.

    1. Did I lump all therapists into one group? If so please back-up your claim with some proof. I've always maintained there are some good ones out there. Like any profession there are people who are good at their job, lousy at their job, and everything in between. But most professions don't feel ENTITLED to invade one's most private and sacred posession -their mind.

      "Some therapists are also survivors of emotional abuse. These folks are, absolutely, in a position to recommend skills that aide in the eradication of the infestation that results from someone having gotten in your head, even to a small extent."

      The survivors of narcissists are also in the position to offer information and insights as well as recommendations to keep people safe from further harm, be it mental or emotional. Ever heard of NO CONTACT? And they don't charge for it, or claim to eradicate it. Only a deluded, arrogant, narcissistic shrink type would claim "eradication." AND the survivors of narcs don't try to get inside other's heads in the process, which is precisely what you are trying to do. The survivors/victims offer their information and recommendations for free on blogs and forums: Kathy Krajco and Anna Valerious to name a couple. So don't tell me people need the so-called professional therapist, because they don't.

      "One might recommend moving away from emphasis on hostilily or victim-ness and moving to a place where residual 'power over' is released, because retaining hostility is still allowing 'power over'."

      Blah, blah, blah! Spoken like a true mental manipulator. You don't fool me you slippery fuck. Aka - therapist so desperately defending your "profession."

      How's that for retaining my hostility? Makes me feel 'power over' your thinly disguised agenda. Righteous anger, or what you like to term "hostility or victim-ness" is very motivating, liberating and can save lives.

      And like all you idiots who to try and slip your shit into other's minds, you always try to hide it with backhanded compliments: "Wonderful post...." then you go on a passive-agressive rant. "But your insights are so strong and comforting."

      Here's an insight. I think you are dangerous and full of shit. And here's some more hostility: FUCK YOU! I hope victims of narcissists avoid you like the plague because you are just another form of mental infestation adding insult to injury with your new agey 'power over' garbage.

      But thanks proving my point about the dangers of letting slippery creatures of any stripe, especially therapists into one's head.

      Oh, and Ps. Your opening sentence completely negates your next paragraph. You are a hypocrite.

      Go to hell. Oops there that darn hostility again. Hostility I reserve for condescending narcs, btw.

    2. And another Ps.

      Seems clear to me that we victims are RELEASING hostility and that to me is very liberating and empowering. Only some quack would claim our power is "residual." THAT is a disempowering crock of shit.

      You're suggesting people should spend time, energy and hard earned cash through the BS process of therapy so they can move to a place where their "residual" 'power over' is released. HA!

      Our power is ALWAYS accessible. Human beings are well aware of what lies within them. How dare you claim to say you know better. But I guess you gotta make a living, no matter how unethical.

  56. A number of years ago in psychology today magazine there was an article that stuck in my mind and has been my cornerstone when interviewing therapists. The article was about why do therapist become therapist.The magazine did a survey of therapist. They discovered that seventy five percent of them became therapist to solve their own issues. The next question asked how many of those therapist were successful. The answer was ten percent.That was an eye opener.Those are frightful odds when looking for a therapist,if they can't solve their own issues how on earth are they going help anyone else. I personally suspect that most but not all of the rest are cluster Bs who use their power over others for N supply and to finance their facades.I must say out of all of the therapist I have personally seen only one didn't have a twisted personal agenda.

    1. Anonymous,

      Thanks for this. Those are definitely bad odds for finding a "good" therapist. I can also say, I came across a couple of Ts that didn't seem to have a twisted personal agenda, but they were incompetents rather than dangerous.

      Perhaps finding a "good" therapsist is equivalent to finding an actual good person in any setting in the world. It boils down to integrity, empathy, wisdom, honesty, strongth ethics and values and a sincere desire to do good and not harm to others.

      When it comes right down to it, that is hard to find on any level. Never mind shelling out cash and putting unearned trust into the hands of someone who you really don't know what their agenda is, and if they have your best interest at heart.

      The one on one therapist thing, is to me, too contrived to be trusted. I would trust a person on a park bench more than I would someone collecting checks in a stuffy office. That said, I've gained more wisdom from folks on a train, plane, bus, or bench then I have with those charging for a sit down on an ugly sofa.

  57. Thank you so much for the detailed explanations of the MN trying to get into your head and how and why they do it. Like you said, they are warped, and when met with someone who doesnt want to play their game, THEY SNAP! THEY RAGE! But this doesnt keep them from trying.

    My mother in the MN. My father, I really dont know how to describe him, very mentally weak. Well, early in my adult hood, I kept in contact with my MN, just because of my father for about 10 years, but then eventually, I went no contact on him too.

    Pretty much every encounter with my NM was a conversation like you are describing EXACTLY. If she wanted to insult me, for example, she would ask insidious questions, like, "are you combing your daughters hair?". Instead of just attacking me outright, "I think you are a bad mother", she does it sideways by asking stupid questions.

    Finally, I said, "why do ask me these stupid questions?" And she says, "they are not stupid!!! YOU have a problem! " and she starts yelling and screaming..

    I said, "yes, they are stupid, not only stupid, but very insulting, and this, by the way, is the reason why I dont come around, and why you havent seen your grandchildren.. You dont see the insult in that comment?"

    And she snaps, "NOPE!"

    I say, "well, thats very unfortunate for you. " And there was dead dead dead silence. That was the last conversation I had with my MN mom.

    And ever since then, she's taken to one way contact, leaving horrific manipulative messages on the phone, writing to me about the WILL, creating false online profiles of me inviting me to events, ( so I guess she can see me off guard, and get information out of me).

    I truly understand my moms petty nature, and your post somes it up PERFECTLY! My mom doesnt care about me or her grandkids, but she needs information so she can run back and talk bad behind my back. Thats all she does. Even if I dont give her any information, SHE will talk bad about someone, and probably report back to them that it was me that said it.

    Others on the receiving end of my moms information have got to know there is something wrong with her. Normal people just dont going around slandering people, all the time, each and every time you see them.

    But your post is right. It highlights what gets the MN going. They have no lifes pursuits, no love or passion for anything, so they literally get their jollies of what they perceive themselves as "controlling the world".

    My mom is signing me up for all these online groups, they email me, etc, in her attempt to have a chance encounter and see me to get information. This is ridiculous. All her communication is sideways. Its passive aggressive, manipulative, and just down right stupid.

    The last straw was when she was calling my daughter racial slurs, and then denying it, all because she said it "side ways".

    Really, I think the reason why MN communicate that way is so they can always have an out, and twist the story around like they really didnt do anything. Its a better sell than just out right lying.

    But what they dont understand that with lack of integrity, which they have none, no one beleives them. Yeah, they may get a few people, trick them with all the theatrics the first time, but over time, it all gets old and draining.

    I dont think my mother will ever stop stalking me. I remember a ex-friend of hers, that stop responding to my moms correspondence. my mom did not give up, until the friend died. In fact, because of my moms stalking behavior, I am wondering if the friend told her husband to call her and say she had passed just to get her leave her alone!!

    The friend stopped talking to my mom, and all my mom could say was, "oh, she is going through something, etc. ". Thats exactly what she said about me too. It had nothing to with her horrific behavior, and how no one wants to be around her, ever, and how happy everyone is when she is not around.

  58. You know whats really funny? Watching an MN interact with someone that is autistic.

    My husband in the early years of our marriage, (we've been married 16 years now), showed signs of autism. Only now, do I understand that his inablity to interact with his world, had more to do with protection and isolation, and not necessarily anything neurological.

    It started with watching how interacted with his mother. He just didnt. He ignored her, and protended she wasnt there. He would sit in the corner and stare off into space, while his mother raged, complained, made demands, insulted him, etc. Honestly, I did not understand why we even endured such visits.

    After the grandchildren were born, she became out of control, and I just told her off, and cut her out of our lives. She was pretty easy to get rid of. Granted, she smeared us to other family members, and had them beleiving her lies, etc.she sent her flying monkeys, but never did she ever try to get her son. Never called him, or anything.

    she sent my daughter a ragey email complaining about us, and lashing out, but thats it.

    I think my mother in law always knew that she couldnt get to her son. When we cut her off, she didnt even try to contact him.

    He's never acted autistic after that. Once mother was out of the picture, he matured alot, and was a lot happier person. I think he acted like that out of protection of his moms viciousness,and he is real conflict avoidant, so he would never turn a visit, although he tried, "ie, I dont have money for gas, sorry" and stuff like that.

    That is one arena where MNs lose. When they are dealing with those that are autistic, and dnot get their sideways insulting comments.

  59. And thing about therapists.. This profession is known to attract Ps and Ns. Much like the corporate world attracts psycho path bosses that like to control others, there are bad teachers that attracted to abusing children, cops that enjoy beating the crap out of people, etc. And like the psychology profession, and the general population alike, like you said, MOST of the good ones are not the norm, say 10% of each profession. The good psychologists are hard to get to.

    I have found a lot healing in talking with other people that have been in my predicament, and reading a lot. I think the psychology profession is at its best when they are publishing information for the general public, but one on and therapy sessions? I dont think they are interested in any type of healing. That would be bad forbusiness.

  60. Kudos on this entry! You did a great job explaining the subtlety of how they gather and use information against their target. And I love the name of the blog, perfect for what it's like to deal with people with NPD!

    I had an eerie experience when I was still in contact with my likely Narcissistic mother. I went to take care of her after she had surgery. I knew it was going to be a difficult time, so I made sure to pack exercise clothes/sneakers, bring my mp3 player and give a heads up to some close friends that I might need to call them for support. Walking and listening to music or calling my friends for support was very helpful in dealing with the stress.

    I didn't want her to know I was calling for help, so I would wait until I got almost a block away. I would delete my call history so she couldn't snoop on my phone. Bit of background, she used to search my room when I was a teen and read my journal without permission, supposedly under the reasoning that she suspected I was on drugs. I wasn't. I did well in school, watched my younger brother after school and often evening when she wanted to go out. I did much of the household work as well.

    Despite those precautions, she told me she had a dream I was on the phone complaining about her to my friends. The only thing I can think of is she insisted on sharing the guest bedroom with me the first few nights in case she needed anything. Perhaps I talked in my sleep? Or she just guessed? It was bizarre.

    I've had an uneven experience with therapy. Part of the problem is it took me until about 3 years ago (I'm in my mid 40s) to realize I was dealing with someone who had a Personality Disorder. It was with my previous therapist I realized I was being scapegoated. I had to change therapists (long story). And I specifically looked for someone who listed PDs as an area of expertise. The one I selected has had personal experience with being on the receiving end of N behavior. So far, so good.

    But I agree a lot of therapists don't recognize descriptions of PDed behavior or have issues of their own which haven't been sufficiently resolved.

    One thing I realize from my experience and what you've written here is that I have a tendency to tell people too much. Or I go to the other extreme and trust no one. It's really quite a delicate balancing act.

    Also, I liked your blog entries on Ordinary People/Million Dollar Baby. My therapist (sorry, know you don't like that phrase) recommended re-watching it. I hadn't watched it since I first saw it when it came out. I caught bits of it on YouTube and I'm going to rent or buy it because it hits so close to home. And from what you've written here, I'm adding Million Dollar Baby to the list too. What's weird is my mom's likely NPD is co-morbid with addiction. Plus I had a previous estrangement from her in my 20s, so she realized she couldn't get away with the more blatant stuff. So it's sort of like I had Earline for a mother until my early 20s, with bits of Beth interspersed and then Beth from my 20s on.

    I'm looking forward to checking out and reading other entries in your blog. You really capture the essence of what it is to grow up in this kind of environment. I'm sad you had to deal with 2 NPD parents. One was bad enough, I can't even begin to imagine what 2 would be like.

  61. Lisette, in my experience, your article is bang on;
    totally accurate. I was raised by two MN's as an
    only child, and spent years on the couch so to
    In all my time speaking to various therapists I have
    met only two that I would consider emotionally
    honest and only one who was both honest and
    truly competent.

    I have gone to her mostly as I would go to a trusted
    family member (most of this stuff is too heavy to
    discuss with friends). We don't really do much
    "therapy", I vent and she reminds me in practical
    terms to stay the course. No diagnosis or
    psychobabble needed.

    I would most definitely agree that the vast majority of
    therapists are more in need of therapy themselves,
    and can be really dangerous to someone who is
    suffering the terrible devastation of a relationship
    with a N.

    Forewarned is Forearmed. Thank you, Lisette for
    another great article!

  62. It's all about control with the Narcissists. They use control and power over others to dominate and suppress the victim and get their way. It's their way or the highway. No other way. But God says when I shut my mouth and walk away, it doesn't mean you've won. It simply means your sorry a** isn't worth anymore of my time.

  63. Lisette, powerful stuff. I'm teary-eyed right now because I've lived this for decades. I must tell you that your purpose in this lifetime (as you may already know) is to write about this topic because you are helping a myriad of people. We need your blogs and your assistance. You give it freely and we are so grateful for it. My second journey has recently begun and it involves NC with the majority of my NFOO and their Flying Monkeys. The only regret I have is that I didn't figure this out years ago. But I keep reminding myself that God has blessed me immeasurably now - so I can FINALLY leave this crazy, toxic family behind and never look back. I also keep reminding myself that AT LEAST I figured it out in this lifetime and can live out the rest of my days in peace, harmony and dignity. Thank you for all of your efforts. You may never truly know just how many of us you've helped.

    1. Anonymous, thank-you for the kind words. I just wish the internet had arrived 20 years earlier. It wasn't until I discovered blogs written by people who lived it, that I could really make sense of all the N insanity. I too am grateful for finding the information, it brought me a great sense of relief and validation that I had done the right thing by staying away from my NFOO.

      I'm glad to hear that you have gone NC with the Ns and their monkeys. Leave them all behind and keep-on looking forward to better days ahead!

  64. I think that your brilliant in what you write Lisette and I am so grateful on my first night of reading what you say about these people, because its almost as though you have lived my life... I am having to mourn my parents as if they have already died, and my brother and sister are both narcisstic too, using and then discarding me as though I never existed. It has been such a painful time for me, and to read it written how it really is can only help in my recovery progress. I don't know why I was born into such a dysfunctional God hating family, but if there is one thing I do know, its that despite all the pain that its caused me, I am so grateful to God that I'm not like them...

    1. Welcome, SiennRose. I'm glad you found your way here. I understand what you mean about having to mourn your parents as if they had already died. Once I learned about NPD, I pretty much had to mourn every relationship I had ever had (with a N) because I saw them all as lies. I too feel as if I was used and discared by my NFOO as if I never existed. And in their eyes, you don't exist unless you are supporting their self-serving agenda. They put about as much concern into our existence as a paper cup they're about to crush. The reality is harsh. I'm happy for you that you are able see one positive at play: that you are not like them... and you never will be. I believe that's something you should also thank yourself for. Again, welcome.

  65. Imo, the most important item in your blog is that "weak" humans could/would end up as "suicide".

    Thanks to your blog, you have given "fuel" to an actual litigated Claim in a court proceeding. Yes, someone hung himself, dead, and I am alleging that the Narcissist in question, knew, or ought to have known, that this was going to happen; and, that the Narcissist felt guilty enough at his funeral, to say, "I should never have left him", according to the deceased's brother.

    One of his friends alleged that she used him "like a slave" and then left him, "without hardly nothing" even though they were both on title in the matrimonial home, and the statutory division of assets is 50/50 in their jurisdiction.

    There seems to have been an unequal balance of power between them: She, with an IQ of 155, a masters degree, and a prof at a college; he, a construction labourer suffering from depression, possibly low self-esteem, limited financial means, and uneducated in divorce property rights.

    The present court proceedings allege that she committed adultery against her next husband and uses illegal drugs, in addition to her use of MAOI and addiction to nicotine (cigarettes.)

    This narcissist claims to be Bipolar II, but she has a Psych Honors degree.

    The court proceedings also allege that her bipolar symptoms are faked (malingering) for the purpose of receiving "sick pay" (disability benefits) from her employer's insurance company.

    The court proceedings allege that her actual diagnosis is Narcissistic Personality Disorder, not Bipolar. (See Sam Vaknin's excellent Youtube lectures on how all these disorders are now grouped as one disorder in DSM V, including NPD and Borderline Personality Disorder.

    Would anybody out there care to comment on their similar personal experiences, from both "victim" and "perpetrator" views?

    Anything that would help in the present litigation against this Narcissist would be appreciated.

    Robert Anonymous

  66. 10 years ago i spent a month in a mental hospital after an attempt at taking my own life, it is difficult to talk about suicidal thoughts because other people dont know how to deal with hearing it and get freaked out,
    ive been on and off antidepressants since then, i dont think they make a blind bit of difference but i took them to please those around me,
    i came off them of my own accord last july.
    oh boy, i felt like i was on speed when they were leaving my system, but i was just returning back to normal, i realised how sedated i had been whilst on them,
    i woke up to things that were going on around me and objecting.
    my family objected to my objecting and told me i needed to go back onto medication.
    i realised the medication is not for my benefit, its for theirs, i am far easier to deal with if im sedated and dribbling in the corner!
    reading blogs like this and discovering narcissism has really cleared up "why" for me, i believe not understanding was the cause of my emotional turmoil,
    the work you are doing is so important to raise awareness, i wish i'd have read this years ago, thank you xx

    1. Helen, I relate to everything you've written. The narcs really do not wish us well. They prefer us sedated and dribbling in the corner because it makes them feel good, powerful, smug etc., and we are easier to abuse, control and manipulate when we are in a fog (fear, obligation, guilt, meds whatever). They really do feed off our pain and suffering that's why we should stay the hell away from them or NEVER show any chinks in our armour when we are near them.

      "reading blogs like this and discovering narcissism has really cleared up "why" for me, i believe not understanding was the cause of my emotional turmoil"

      I feel the same way: not understanding was the cause of my emotional turmoil. When I discovered an ACON blog and learned about NPD my perceptions about my NFOO and people like them were validated for the first time in my life. Learning about NPD and reading about other people's similiar experience gave me tremendous confidence in my perceptions of reality and the truth. The narcs use all kinds of tricks to make us doubt our own perception and deny reality. The last thing they want us to be is strong minded and clear headed. I'm a questioner by nature, but after learning about NPD, I started to question everything. Things really shifted in me. I guess the best way to desrcibe it is that I became very grounded in reality. I too wish I had learned about this stuff years ago. I always say that I wish the internet had been invented 20 years earlier.

  67. Sounds like they still have access to you?? They'll intensify their games to try and recapture control of you if they have. Helen please don't get hooked in to trying to prove that you were right to them. It's the most dangerous thing you could do. Evil has only contempt for Truth. Think about whatever you have to do to wipe them out of your life.

    It seems to me that the nature of and reason for suicide attempts are very well understood at House of Mirrors (one of Lisette's great gifts to this healing community). IMO Suicide starts to seem like the only option ONLY when we that all they have completely hijacked your faith in your own power (you temporarily experience it as having been destroyed and gone forever). Blinded to your rightful ownership of power (of "agency" in one's own life, of being able to use one's power to act in one's own interest to use our soul to engage in the world). To be induced to abandon ownership of your power is to be totally reduced to a puppet, a thing.

    Antidepressants freeze people in suspended powerlessness. They are a primary tool of silencing, not healing, not even "managing your depression". Depression in that context "being pushed right down, being subjugated to lies, by a process of lies". If we find ourselves telling ourselves "I am so depressed" at any time, suggest use that as a cue to discovering "What LIE am I being told and am I buying into right now?"

    For in the darkest of places because despair is a quintessential doorway to the process of healing. It is in the times after we have passed out of these abysses of despair that we discover what our Soul is really made of and the Self reflects that growing discovery in thought, feeling and action.

    I need to add the qualification here that I always have to remind myself that my truth may only be true for me, not others. We are not carbon copy souls on carbon copy journeys. I only know what is best for me and what worked best for Me in my struggle to liberate my hijacked self from the captivity of Narcs. However you achieve that, I recognise that what works for you is right for you although it may not sound like it sometimes.

    1. hi anon, thank you for your words,
      i am currently NC with foo and extended foo - my mothers side of the family, i was alienated from my father and his side at 4 years old, after a bitter divorce. i didnt meet him until i was 29 years old.
      my mother was the oldest of 5 girls, after her divorce she dumped me on my N grandmother and alcoholic grandfather, there were no boundaries, my nan was my mum, my aunts were my sisters,i'd see my mum for an hour in the evenings and on weekends, it was all abit messed up, i bonded with my nan, not my mother
      this caused alot of jealousy between my aunts and alot of spite came my way, i was told that they were justified for acting and behaving like this towards me, i was very spoilt thats why they were jealous and i had to be understanding.
      long story short after years of terrible treatment 2 of my aunts, kicked me out of my nans house, a month after I'd turned 18 - it was like "hey we did what we had to now jog on".
      i've been NC with N grandmother for nearly 6 years, after she upset me on my 30th birthday, i decided then i was going to be a "moth to the flame no more", i decided to use those tears of upset to grieve for her, i can honestly say i have no feelings of hatred towards her or love, i dont feel anything, it is as if she has died and i'm over it, and its great!
      although my N mother was not involved with the upset on my birthday, she decided if i wasnt speaking to her mother then i wasnt speaking to her, i didnt have contact with her for 3 years, but oh boy did i get sucked back in.
      i was pregnant with my 3rd child, 2 weeks overdue and needing a lift to a hospital appointment, my sisters father (mothers boyfriend) jumped in to offer and i greatly accepted.
      at the hospital i was told i had to go straight to the delivery ward and be induced, i phoned my ex husband to see if he could look after his 2 children, he refused so mothers boyfriend arranged for my mother to have them, i had no other option.
      after 3 years of no contact, the next time i see my mother she walks into the hospital, i'm laying there a right mess, fit to drop, i cant question her, i cant ask her where she has been, i just have to lay there and be grateful for her saving the day.
      when i look back it makes me feel ill, i truly belive the sole purpose of her boyfriend giving me a lift was to try to find any little crack or opening he could to worm my mother back in and oh boy didnt i just give it to him on a plate!
      this guy is a real work of art, my mother and her partner have a daughter, my sister 22, and they have been seeing eachother for 28 years, this guy lives full time with his wife (who doesnt know about my mother)and his own children but thats another story.
      ive been NC with my mother since about August last year, i tried for 18 months it was just after that i stumbled across narcississm, it was like my life was a 1000 piece jigsaw and every piece just fell into place!
      my sister turned up at xmas just after a really bad split with a horrible man who is in and out of prison. she has N tendancies, very low self esteem from being "the product of an affair",
      i let her stay with me since xmas but she left after we had a fall out on sunday,
      i did my best to help her through a rough time, but i am glad she is gone, she relays snippets of info to me about my mother and what she is doing and i really dont want to know! it really affects me, i just want to live my life in peace without knowing anything about them, so, im in a position of NC with all foo at the moment and its the best i have felt in a long time

  68. That's what TRUTH is like isn't it? Your description of the 1000 piece jigsaw with every piece just falling into place before your amazed eyes of recognition, and you think YES, it is like a sudden blinding light that actually enables you to see everything at once, a hypersensory experience. It is the point you come to in your life where there is no going back - unless you are willing to face self-destruction at their cruel spiteful wicked hands and minds - this jigsaw experience you so well describe is the first major Door of Perception we go through and on the other side we discover we are a completely different Self from who we thought we were, and we begin to see their Evil through the perceptions of the real Self.

    It's our Road to Damascus experience when our consciousness is suddenly awoken to the reality of it all and the confusion is swept away leaving us the vision of our experience in dazzling clarity. You can find more acceptance and understanding on HOM in a day than they gave you in your entire life. There is a certain sadness in realising that, (so much loss because so much was missing) though the joy of it is a transcendent experience that when this finally happens to us, I suspect that angels exult!

  69. I don't know if "angels exult" as HOM deals with the secular, not the sacred and straying into this area tends to be very divisive to a world-wide and multi-cultural readership. There's a Link to Luke Ministries as well as Anna V's "Narcissists Suck" on the right side of the screen and there are many, many other sites devoted to discussions of this nature. What ever spiritual "path" aids in your journey is great! However, please bear in mind these types of discussions often result in a very polarizing effect on the conversation. Thanks for understanding the "spirit" in which this reality is offered! ;)

  70. I fully take your point Lisette. My fall back on spiritual metaphor could well have that unintended alienating effect, and I apologise to anyone adversely affected by it. Mea culpa.. creating alternative secular metaphors large enough to express these transitions will challenge me and that's a good thing. Our experiences have been so extreme that common-or-garden metaphors seem so inadequate at times. In fact your comment helped me realise that I rely on any kind of metaphor too much and too readily, to obsecure a reluctance to state the more painful stark reality of my experience. No offence taken at all. I am grateful for your comment.

    1. Thank you, Anna. You are very gracious and I know you only mean well.

  71. Thank you for this awesome post. It is so healing to read connecting to aggressions and turning them outside. I witnessed to N admitting what they're into. One sayd: "I like to destroy ppl's life" another one which used to be in my band improvized and exposed "I get them all into my trap." The problem is it's so fucking many of them out there.

  72. I came across your blog from the post on Evil Queen/Dorian Gray. They describe my parents perfectly.

    I'm glad to see someone gets it. When I was in high school and started to become more open in talking about the abuse I would get from my mom during her rages, people who seemed genuinely sympathetic would often say, "Well, have you tried talking to her about it?" As if it was just some misunderstanding! It just increased the feeling of isolation that either I didn't know how to explain things well enough or no one could truly comprehend my situation. Because I knew by then how important it was to not let her know exactly what I was thinking or feeling. It would just be something she could use to manipulate me.

    I remember once when I was in college, my sister was visiting me for the weekend and my parents gave us a time when they'd be back to pick her up. When we got back to my dorm room shortly before that time, we were surprised to see that they were already there talking to my roommate. We asked how long they'd been there and they said an hour. My roommate later told me she didn't know why they would say that when it had been more like 5 minutes. She told me that my mom had casually asked what I was like to live with. It's hard for most people to realize that even innocuous-sounding questions like that are just her way of trying to find out something to use against me.

  73. Enjoyed this writing. Thanks!

  74. Excellent article! I briefly dated a Narcissist a few months ago and when I realised what had happened I went from missing him, to being disgusted. I have worked on myself immensely since then and I am pretty proud of all I accomplished. I am going to run into this narcissist in three weeks time as he "conveniently" joined a group event I was in. How do I deal with him when he attempts to talk to me? I am doing everything I can to remain indifferent towards him but just hearing about him angered/hurt me today. I have no interest in having him in my life and apply the NC rule but want to make sure I do not feed his ego IN ANY WAY when I see him in person!! Any advice is very much appreciated.


    1. You're not over him. This article I wrote may help you. https://house-of-mirrors.blogspot.ca/2013/11/how-to-play-narcissist.html (How To Play A Narcissist In Robot Mode) it's under "Popular Posts" on the side bar.