Sunday 17 February 2013

The Aftershock Of Narcissistic Abuse



“If you're reading this because of problems with someone you know now, the chances are excellent that one or both of your parents was a narcissist.  Narcissists are so much trouble that only people with special prior training (i.e., who were raised by narcissists) get seriously involved with them. Sometimes narcissists' children become narcissists, too, but this is by no means inevitable, provided stable love was given by someone, such as the non-narcissist parent or grandparents. Beyond that, a happy marriage will heal many old wounds for the narcissist's child. But, even though children of narcissists don't automatically become narcissists themselves and can survive with enough intact psychically to lead happy and productive lives away from their narcissistic parents, because we all love our parents whether they can love us back or not, children of narcissists are kind of bent -- "You can't get blood out of a stone," but children of narcissists keep trying, as if by bonding with new narcissists we could somehow cure our narcissistic parents by finding the key to their heart.



Thus, we've been trained to keep loving people who can't love us back, and we will often tolerate or actively work to maintain connections with narcissistic individuals whom others, lacking our special training, find alienating and repellent from first contact, setting ourselves up to be hurt yet again in the same old way. Once narcissists know that you care for them, they'll suck you dry -- demand all your time, be more work than a newborn babe -- and they'll test your love by outrageous demands and power moves. In their world, love is a weakness and saying "I love you" is asking to be hurt, so be careful: they'll hurt you out of a sort of sacred duty. They can't or won't trust, so they will test your total devotion. If you won't submit to their tyranny, then you will be discarded as "no good," "a waste of time," "you don't really love me or you'd do whatever I ask."   ----- Joanna Ashmun   How To Recognize A Narcissist

I would not be writing this blog if my NFOO were the only narcissists to infect my life.  Wouldn’t that be nice? To be done with these pernicious creatures at the age of 18; clean-up the aftermath of their abuse and move forward with my life, narc free.  No such luck!  My narcissist family of origin was pretty much obliterated by the time I was 18, which means I have been out of that sick and twisted system longer than I was in it.  But did I walk out of a world dominated by narcissists into a kinder, gentler one free of narcissists? Hell NO.

Transitioning from a NFOO into adulthood was like surviving a devastating car crash, and wandering away from the scene of the accident in severe shock and with a bad head injury. I entered adulthood traumatized, and I didn’t even know it.  Trauma is not a good foundation in which to build a life. Trauma is not the basis of practical choices and wise decisions. I entered into adulthood with my navigation and response systems compromised, and all my safety mechanisms corrupted. In short: I was brainwashed, with no boundaries and set to fight or flight mode. I had the narcissists to thank for erasing everything in me that would keep me safe in a dangerous world. I was groomed by wolves to be attractive to wolves.

Growing up in a “family” dominated by narcissists is akin to being raised in a cult. I wrote about this in the post Narcissistic Abuse is Soul Murder where I compared it to being imprisoned in a police state a la Big Brother. There is absolute control, invasion of privacy, brainwashing, punishment for original thought, isolation, silencing, secretiveness, group think, fraud and dictatorship to name a few.

Being raised in a NFOO is also like being combat soldiers on the front lines of war:  facing the enemy without back-up, running as bullets fly and ducking for cover as grenades are tossed, and always living in a state of fear and apprehension as we nervously wait for the next bomb to drop. We could never relax.  We were never safe from harm. We were hostages fighting to survive in a war that we didn’t sign-up for. Yup, we ACONs were thrust out into the world brainwashed combat vets and POW survivors with post-war trauma. But no one would know this just by looking at us. Except of course, the enemy… other narcissists.

This most insidious aspect of narcissistic abuse is this: we were groomed by predators FOR predators.  It’s like the trafficking of human souls.  Are all these evil fucks in it together? Is the cult of narcissistic abuse a form of organized crime?  All I can say is; the narcs that trained me have blood on their hands. I was their human sacrifice to the world of predators and they are in collusion with every evil, sick fuck that ever harmed me. My narcissist parents shoved me out into the world with a map directing me toward a life of traumatic events and abusive relationships.  

Having personal boundaries repeatedly trampled by N parents and siblings to the point where the lines of me and others no longer exists, is utterly selfish and cruel.  The narcissist parent TRAINS the child to ignore the warning signs of danger so THEY can gain access and violate us without any interference.  When you make boundary trespassing “normal” you just set the child up to be exploited. Because isn’t that what boundaries are: an early warning detection system to keep out intruders? Yup. Those N parents are as merciless as they come. In addition to the abuse at THEIR hands, the N parent primes the child to be abused by the rest of the world and sets them up for a life of hazardous relationships. And because life among the NFOO is so dangerous, we essentially enter the world alone, as orphans with no support system. We are first rate narc bait without a safety line. We ACONs are simply irresistible to predators. Yum, yum.  Let the feeding frenzy begin.

A few years after I had fled to the opposite end of the country to a city where I didn’t know anyone, and with only $200 bucks in my pocket, I had a long distance chat with malignant narc mother.  I told MNM about a couple of shitty experiences I had starting out in the big city, but there were tons. She became incredibly hostile and snapped, “Why do these things always happen to YOU?!” I remember saying, “I don’t know. Bad luck? It’s not my fault. Why can’t you give me the benefit of the doubt?” She screamed back at me, “I would NEVER give YOU the benefit of the doubt!” It wasn’t long after that, that I went no contact for good. I have not seen or spoke to the vicious, psycho, malignant monster in 22 years. Looking back at that conversation I think of things like, “Yeah ‘mom’ why do these things always happen to ME?” I was fucking set-up by YOU and the other narcs! That’s why! Interestingly enough, malignant narcissist sister has never been exploited and abused as an adult. Want to know why? Because she was trained to be a PREDATOR. 

And as far MN mother callously lacking any and all concern for my wellbeing - what the hell should I expect? She’s a malignant narcissist. Malignant narcissists train you to bend-over for abuse, and then despise you for taking it. It truly is a Catch – 22. 

Even before I discovered malignant narcissism and was FINALLY able to slap a label on the “family” freak show, I was fully aware of N parent’s extreme limitations.  Friends that I made in the big city I fled to were always perplexed by my background. They would ask me, “Do your parents know where you are?” I would answer, “No.” They would ask, “Do they wonder where you are?” I would answer, “No.” They would ask, “Don’t they care how you are?” I would answer, “No.” They would ask, “Why?! Why?! Why?!” My stock response was, “They’re not capable of caring.”  Funnily enough, I even had an N friend say to me, “In all the time I have known you, for the life of me, I can’t figure out why your parents hate you.” I replied, “Maybe it’s not me, maybe it’s them.” And incidentally, I never told anyone my parents hate me. I guess they just equated their indifference with hate, which is not a stretch as indifference is the opposite of love.

So, as you can see; I was no fool. I was onto something. I went NO CONTACT for good with MN mother and MN sister in my early 20’s. I knew at a fairly young age that my NFOO was dangerous and that I was better off without them. But despite my survival instincts, I still got involved with narcissists because of my special prior training.

Being raised in a home dominated by narcissists is not just a case of my family sucks so I’m outta here, and that’s the end of the insanity.  On no. Not a chance. I really wish it was that simple. For me, it was a case of my family sucks and no matter how far I run they continue to suck and suck and suck and suck. Narcissistic abuse is like a gigantic leech that latches on and continues to feed.  No matter where you go, no matter what you do, the narcissist’s voice lives inside of you (that should be a dysfunctional family greeting card). 

Remember all those cults that sprung-up in the 1970’s, and how those poncho wearing, pot-smoking, and sometimes just naive teenage hippies had to be “rescued” by their parents? But the parents didn’t do the actual rescuing.  The parents had to hire people that were specially trained at removing/kidnapping people from cults and de-programming them. I remember seeing documentaries on the subject. The “deprogrammers” would snatch the kid, shove them in a van, and then take them to a hotel room where there were no outside influences – NONE - and the deprogramming would commence.

And therein lies the reason why the adult children of narcissists are not free from abuse simply because they have escaped their family of origin - outside influences; other narcissists. How can you deprogram if members of the same cult keep slithering into your life?  You can’t!  It is IMPOSSIBLE to mitigate the effects of narcissistic abuse if your life continues to be infiltrated by narcissists.
I may have encountered “lesser narcissists” after my NFOO, but they were narcissists just the same. And even if some of these “relationships” were only short lived, there was still damage.  It seemed I was always cleaning-up after these fuckers.  And when I finally got rid of one infestation, there would be another. I swear these narcs are like cockroaches: you can’t leave any tasty crumbs around for them to snack on. NOT A CRUMB. 

The aftershock of narcissistic abuse has been more devastating to me than the original abuse. The "big one" hit in my NFOO, I survived it and walked away. What I didn’t count on was the ripple effect: numerous smaller quakes repeatedly hitting me in the same spot at unpredictable and random intervals. Narcissists on the outside strike like terrorists. At least in a N home, there is some predictability, and if your parent isn't a stalker, there is the possibility of a clean exit strategy.  But when N abuse becomes a part of your adult life - when you can't stop trying to get blood out of a stone - there seems to be no escape. It's never ending. You say to yourself "I guess most people are just like that." Or, "maybe something is wrong with me?" As Anna V said, the only thing wrong with us ACONs is that we tolerate narcissists. So please NEVER confuse being shell-shocked and brainwashed with a busted compass and non-existent security and support system as being damaged or defective. Only narcissists want you to believe that, and it is only narcissists that are truly deserving of the description: damaged, disordered and defective. It is the mutant narcissist who is lacking in everything that makes us human.    

So we ACONs are shell-shocked soldiers walking right into another battle. A battle that never ends until we figure-out the enemy. They say knowing your enemy is half the battle. This is true, especially when you discover it's not you, it's THEM - The Narcissists!  And the only way to win the battle is to closely study your enemy and know your own weakness; the ones that your N parents cultivated in you during narc abuse training camp.  Only when you truly understand the enemy and know yourself will you be properly protected.  That's what this blog is about.

So as I wrap up this post, I notice a fellow soldier has found their way here by asking the Google oracle: what does it truly mean to be narcissist free? 

To me, it means the war is my mind is finally over. It’s the end of battling the narcissist’s influence on my thoughts, feelings and behavior.  I'm happy to report that part of the war is over for me. DONE. Narcissists no longer have any influence on me. Well… except for pissing me off. And I am well aware that narcissists will always exist, they are out there and they are numerous, and there's a part of me that humbly accepts that I will always be vulnerable. The only thing I can do, that any of us can do, is know the enemy and know thyself. 

And while you're at it, throw loads of love at yourself and NEVER love anyone that can't love you back.            
                                  


70 comments:

  1. sigh. Yes, we are absolutely set up to be preyed upon by additional N Predators which has it's genesis within NFOO Family dynamics: Any attempts to differentiate or exhibit autonomy within the strangling confines of an NFOO are met with frenzied resistance in view of their threat to the stable instability of these Family Systems aka, the NFOO Regime. Growing up within these NFOO Regimes guarantees we lack confidence in ourselves/perceptions and most certainly have endured consistent violations of every conceivable personal boundary. Trying to launch into the Adult World without the most basic template or model for healthy, appropriate relationships becomes IMO a set-up for failure simply because we don't have any reference point for such.
    I also got as far out of Dodge geographically and as quickly as possible. Since there was no internet/PCs/"self-help" books this became a real "blunder-around-in-the-dark-alone" situation for me. Although I didn't know there was a term-"Boundaries"-I started setting some up in the interest of self-preservation from Psychobitch and Nsis. So I erected my nice lil' white picket fence of a "Boundaries" around my young adult self.
    Shortly there after, Huh, what's that sound? Holey crap, here came Psychobitch on a front end loader, crashing through my pretty fence, put 'er in reverse and backed over it demolishing it and digging a hole into which she buried the remains. And then she took off in a cloud of dust and diesel fuel with a satisfied smirk.
    Okaaaay. So I rebuilt my fence only this time with concrete reinforced steel and made it about 6' high. There, that'll work! The "Experts" told me so. The next night I awoke to this funny whistling kind of sound followed by crashing and explosions. I peeked out momentarily to assess the situation and saw Psychobitch with that trade-mark smirk up on a small rise launching an artillery attack right through my walls and the Flying Monkey Minions were lobbing grenades over the top of them. By the time the attack was over, my Boundary Fence was in wreck and ruin. And the yard around it was pock-marked with craters. Now what? I cleaned up the mess and gave the Boundary Fence one last try: A much taller, thicker, more re-bar in the concrete Boundary Fence, topped off with razor wire which I was told by the "Experts" would withstand ANY attempts to assault. (This entire Boundary operation was becoming ridiculously expensive.) I then retreated to the safety of my underground bunker. A few nights later, good gawd! I heard huge explosions, my bunker was caving in and my cat was in Acute Feline Distress as was I. When there was a lull, I looked out briefly to see....Drones. She launched a precision attack right over the Boundary Fence and had that same maniacal smirk on her face as she flew off.
    After Action Report: Boundaries don't work with MNs despite what the "Pros"/Experts tell you. No, you're *not* doing them "wrong." No, it doesn't matter how hard you try, what you "use" ex: meticulously crafted letters explaining your feelings, requests to be treated with Dignity and Respect etc. as an autonomous human being.
    MNs don't give a shit about you any more than they know you. They do not adhere to the "normie" Geneva Convention of Peaceable Co- Existence, the UN Resolutions on the Rights of Children/Non-Combatants despite the MNs having signed on when they had kids/families. In my experience, Boundaries for ACs are viewed as Targets of Opportunity by NFOOS. But go ahead and try 'em anyway: The Retribution and Retaliation Campaign will absolutely confirm your beliefs re: how entirely screwed up these NFOOs truly are and remediate any possibility of lingering guilt or doubt. Ultimately, Boundaries will function to set you free on the Road to NO CONTACT.
    It'll be damn expensive in every way but will pay off exponentially in *every* way for the rest of your life.
    TW

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    1. TW, thank-you for the visuals of Psychobitch. As I was reading your post, I envisioned her as a demented comic book villain - "Psychobitch MNM Terror" on the loose and demolishing her daughter's boundaries... volume 5. The reality of the situation is not funny, but you gave one hell of a hilarious description of her! You illustrated perfectly her insanity (maniacal smirk) and the insanity of her actions. She bulldozes down your boundaires and leaves. So why does she run ripshod over your boundaries? Because they're there. I agree 100% that boundaries mean jack shit to a malignant narcissist or any other NFOO member. They see boundaries as just another part of us that needs to be destroyed. I also agree that it's a total waste of time to set boundaries with NFOO. No contact is the only way to stop the abuse, and sometimes that doesn't even work because as you can attest to, some MNs are stalkers. What I do believe is that boundaries deter other narcs. Narcs test people and if they can't bust in, they go away and find other prey. But I think it's useless to start setting boundaries once a narc has already gotten in. If you let a narc in, they think they own you, so boundaries just don't work for former Ns only future Ns. That's my take anyway.

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    2. Tundrawoman I love the way you have used these metaphors to describe the narc agenda to absolutely obliterate our construction of defences as part of our first attempts at escape from them. Also Lisette, this blog is particularly important IMO in the validation, support, description and perspective it provides. Together you and TW have really captured crucial elements of our former experience, captivity and programming. I utterly agree with "boundaries are useless once a narc has already gotten in". That's like the woman getting the puncture holes in her neck thinking of putting locks on the window. (It's surprising how naive so many professional advice-givers are on this issue). I know I really belong here when I read things as perceptive and true as what you have both written here. You are part of my liberation struggle which is a never-ending one. And we are in this together, which makes each one of us stronger still. And that's great.

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  2. I like that last line about not loving someone who doesn't love you back. You can't love someone who doesn't love you back. Love doesn't work like that. The thing is though you kind of need to do that in order to learn not to. I'm not so sure that what you call brainwashing and programming isn't really just love. "Programmed to love" or whatever. But nobody programmed us. We were just born like that. Because people...all people...ALL PEOPLE get burned. Right? But you don't think all people are ACoNs do you? So how can that be...all people get burned. All people live and learn. It's not brainwashing. I mean, I guess you could say it to a certain extent, like why would someone fuck with someone who's such a dickhead to them, but brainwashing makes it sound like the person is fucked up and doesn't know reality and is stupid. But who's to say they're not acting on reality? If you listen to your mom's voice in your head, does that mean you're brainwashed, or does that mean you're scared of her because you value something she can take away because you love her or want to love her? If you value it because you're brainwashed then that means everybody is brainwashed. If everybody is brainwashed, then who is brainwashed?
    You're not brainwashed because that means somebody had to have brainwashed you to love. But nobody brainwashed you. You were born like that.

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  3. Lisa! Nice to hear from you! Your comment has made me a little dizzy, but I'm going to take a stab at a response. First off, I believe people love other people all the time, without being loved back. I think I actually loved my Nparents at some point, and they never loved me back. I've also had unrequited love, but just because I wan't loved back didn't make them a N, it just meant they didn't feel the same way. So I personally have loved without being loved back. The post is about "loving" Ns, not normal people. Ns can't love anyone back, they use and abuse. So "loving" a N is a recipe for heartache and pain. Any kind of relationship with a N is a toxic situation. I believe we/normals are born capable of love, and the Ns brainwash and program us to tolerate people (them) who can't love. If I wasn't brainwashed or programmed or whatever the hell you want to call it, there is no way in hell I would have let any of the past Ns into my life romantic or otherwise. I am now repelled by narcissists. Come to think of it, I've always been repellled by narcissists, but that unconscious urge to try and get blood out of a stone was at play. I agree that everyone gets burned, but not everyone gets repeatedly abused and exploited by the people they befriend or have romantic relationships with.

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  4. Lisette, please don't feel obligated to post this comment, OK? It's just some IRL experiences that confirmed your Post and are examples of my previous comment. Yep-keeping the "Future Narcs" out of our lives. Our "training ground" in NFOOs actually gives us some advantages at N-spotting once we learn to have confidence in our perceptions etc. And what a haul that whole "confidence" challenge really is so we're bound to screw up initially, having been well-trained to deny our own reality.
    The above comment was a metaphorical take on my trip down memory lane. My first step behaviorally was getting an unlisted # and lying (gasp!) to her by telling her via snail mail I couldn't afford a phone. Here comes the front-end loader: This resulted in a snail-mail bombing on a daily basis, pages and pages of demands that I write to her every day, call her from pay phones at certain times on certain days etc. At that time my life was work-school-library-apartment, rinse/repeat. I did not comply and instead NC'd.
    Within weeks of my lil' 4 line note telling Psychob I did not wish to have any further contact with her, she launched the Artillery Attack complete with Flying Monkeys: Cops beating down my door at all hrs. on a "Wellness Check" instigated by her, snail mail from people I hadn't heard from in years, "She's your MOTHER!" blaa-blaa-blaa. All ignored. Since the cops were required by law to do these "Wellness Checks" I put myself on Parole and called the local police agencies regularly to forestall any further "Wellness Checks," I was fine and please *don't* show up. They were very appreciative actually as they saw how crazy she was and her lack of concern about using them for BS and retaliation tactics. Her own behavior made the cops "true believers" without my late 20-something yr. old self having to explain much about my "biological mother."
    I was recruited into a position prior to completing Undergrad, moved several states away, got married and was deeply committed to my DH, my career and excelled at work. Life was really, really great for a few years until the Drone Attack. I was not aware she had called my Agency's District Director whom I had not yet met (I was out of the country working at this time) and totally trashed me. I had been ambushed at my temporary work-related "home" a few months previously so I should have known she wouldn't stop there. sigh. Months later when I received my Performance eval (which was again "Outstanding") I inquired about a request for a transfer closer to home I had applied for and was still waiting to hear about. It was then I learned about Psychob's repeated calls to the DD. Although I certainly could not be fired, having *any* hint of "mental instability"/"I can't believe you allow her to be ARMED!" particularly by one's "Mother" compromised my Security Clearance and foreclosed any opportunities at the Agency where I was employed. With a very heavy heart and after lengthy discussions with my DH I turned in my resignation.
    "Not everyone gets repeatedly abused and exploited" unless they're dealing with an MN or their ilk. I had some horrible "relationshits" in my younger years for which I am entirely responsible: I made those choices to put up with the abuse because that was all I knew, that was my self-worth, lack boundaries, of confidence in my perceptions etc. IMO, we were all "well-trained" by MNFOO-lishness. NC+time/distance is an AC's only ticket out of hell, out of allowing future Predators/Perps in our lives, allowing ACs to bloom and grow into the people they really are rather than the compliant mess the NFOOs prefer we remain. Oh-and yes, the MNs *will* support your abuser-even if they couldn't stand them before: Abuse by Proxy in action. (Yeah. What kind of parent DOES this shit??!!)
    TW

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  5. TW, thanks for the metaphor... that's the word I was searching for. You handled MN Psychobitch in the best possible way. It's just a shame that the crazy evil MN had any influence on anyone, let alone your employer. It just goes to show that the slander and abuse fest of a MN claiming to be a "concerned" mother is swallowed-up by many. Even if these people don't really buy what the MN is selling, the seed has been planted and the victim is fucked. The most evil MN I ever crossed paths with (more evil than MNM but equal to MN sister) did the police "wellness check" on me too. She and her MN husband were managers of the building I lived in. Of couse they did the "wellness check" when I was away for the weekend, and I couldn't defend myself. And I didn't find out about the police entering my apartment and snooping around until I sued this woman and her flying monkey husband for harassment. They actually tried to use this call to the police as a show of "concern" for me in their evidence. A show of a concern for what exactly? Like you said, it's a MN retaliation tactic: slander, slander, slander. In my case, I was in the process of exposing the evil MN and her husband for violating the privacy of me and other tenants. Ironic, that her response tactic was to invade my privacy even more. Anyway, I got those two sick evil MN fucks fired and they left their glorified jantitor jobs disgraced and with a cash pay-out to me. These MNs always pull from the same bag of tricks. The fucking "wellness check" is classic MN. MN sister is always on the offensive doing a "wellness check" on me via asking N father (who I have LC with) about me. One of the MN's biggest fears must be being exposed as the bat-shit-crazies they are. I would love to see them all locked-up in the same sanitorium.

    I never tolerated overt abuse in my relationships. And I certainly never "chose" these MNs or went out of my way to maintain a relationship with them. They seemed to choose me, and unfortunately I let them into my world. While most people were put-off by these MNs, it was my "training" that made me ignore my own perceptions AND tolerate them. I blame MNFOO for that - the training. Particularly in regard to MN sister and the way I was trained to take care of her and be her friend even though she was nothing but an envious, selfish, hateful bitch. I'm not a push over, or a whimp and the MNs that got in, got the heave-ho within weeks or a few months and complete no contact. That didn't stop a couple of them from stalking me though. I just regret having had anything to do with them AT ALL. I was trained to be a kind sap to the last people who deserved it. I generally tolerated the passive-agressive, covert N abuse longer than I should have: the neglect, extreme selfishness, self-centeredness, childishness, shady behavior, lack of empathy, unsupportive, dismissive, critical etc. These Ns can be very subtle and their behavior is very insidious. I remember always feeling bad around some of them, but I would repeat the tape of MN mother: "You're so damn sensitive!" So I ignored my instincts becasue of my training. I did have some good friends, but when I fled across the country at a young age, they were 1000s of miles away. It seemed as the years went by I got rid of these Ns faster and faster. I just regret that they got in at all. I blame my training. By the time I had discovered NPD, there was only one long distance dangling narc left in my life. That narc dangles no more. Now that I know what they are, I am responsible for keeping them out. I'm no longer stumbling around in the dark. Just wish I was given the flash-light long ago.

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  6. So true that once we trust our own perceptions our NFOO training ground gives us advantages at N spotting. I consider myself an expert. I've encountered so many Ns out in the wild, I know one when I see one. I've always had the skill, it's just that the N training, and being surrounded by Ns is a total mind-fuck. Like I said in the post, we can't begin to trust our own instincts and perceptions while we're still being told by Ns that they're right and we're wrong, that there's something wrong with us, not them. I think isolating actually helped me. I was alone with my thoughts and could process my experiences without N influence. That's how I started to get rid of them faster, and faster.

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  7. ^AMEN. Exactly to both of the above.
    TW

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  8. It took me 40 years and my brothers suicide to "SEE" that my mother was gratified by our pain. I never wanted to believe (nor would any kid) that my mother had "munchausen by proxy" she actually said she thought I was gonna kill myself. So I guess she just decided to ignore me because that was easier than liking me and missing me if I accidentally died. lame.

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  9. I'm glad to see you're back at it, Lisette. As an ACON who will always be in recovery, I can say that posts like this give me the tune-up that I seem to need every once in a while. It's really nice to read about what really happens to those of us who manage to escape the grips of our MN parent(s); why we continually seem to be such magnets for other Ns.

    Based on life experience, I can say that everything in this post is true, even down to a point of wondering what was wrong with me. Sometimes I felt as if I had a stamp on back that said, "Calling all Ns! Come shaft me up the ass with no lube and I won't say a word!"

    The fact of the matter is that I continue to be a magnet for disordered people because I put up with more shit than a normal person would. You are right - the average everyday person probably runs into just as many walking Cluster Bs as I do, but they'd be appalled by their behavior and wouldn't have anything to do with them. Nope, not me.

    I was just sitting here wondering why I don't recognize the Ns right away. I have had a lifetime of experience dealing with their shit, so I should see the red flags rather quickly...I think I do, but one additional side effect of being an ACON is that I don't trust my own judgment; I frequently second guess myself, and that brief moment is all that a skilled N needs to infiltrate my life. Next thing I know I'm spinning my wheels trying to figure out how to get rid of them. Wash, rinse, and repeat.

    I've been NC for a 1 1/2 years now, but will probably never truly escape this bitch. The effects of her sadistic abuse will continue to haunt me for the rest of my life in one way or another. *sigh*

    What a digression! :) This comment was only supposed to consist of a welcome back and thank you.

    ANON

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    1. ANON! It's so good to hear from you and thanks for this comment... I'm glad you digressed. I wish that stamp you felt you had on your back could be tatooed on every MN, then I would like to see them shoved into the "recreation room" of the hardest prisons and see how they like it!

      Damn, you got me thinking when you said, that brief moment when you second guess yourself is all that a skilled N needs to infilitrate. In my experience, this is so true. I consider myself fairly perceptive and analytical, but the thing is, I'm always at war with my own good judgement. It's like a constant back and forth and that's when the N slips in. I doubt a non-predator would even pick up on my conflicted thinking, but these narcs just seem to have a six sense for that kind of thing.

      Another thing that got me into to trouble with these narcs was feeling sorry for them. Growing-up in a "family" with 3 full-blown narcs, I always had an overwhelming sense of pity for them. Yes, they were abusive and cruel, but they were also sad and pathetic, and instead of truly embracing my anger and hatred for them, I pitied them. In fact, they trained me to pity their pathetic, miserable asses. Narcs love pity. It's a great way to manipulate people. The moment we pity someone, we drop our guard, and BAM, that's when the predator gets in. So a lot of these narcs I met outside the NFOO, I felt sorry for. While most people were put off by how repugnant they were, I thought they were misfits or had no friends, or didn't fit in and so I felt sorry for them... just like I did my NFOO, particularly MN sister.

      ANON, I agree wth you that "recovery" from these evil narcs is a lifelong endeavor. I'm glad to hear you are NC with your sadistic bitch of a mother. I'm sure you'll never doubt your judgement on that despicable monster.

      Thank-you for the welcome back and the comment!

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    2. I just remembered something else about allowing these Ns access to me. A therapist once said to me, "You better watch it, people are going to take advantage of your good nature." I thought, huh?! Good nature?!Me? All my life I was told by MN mother projection machine that I was: manipulative, too sensitive, mean, selfish, had the devil in me blah, blah, blah. So if I was to set a boundary, or reject someone who clearly repulsed everyone else, I felt like I was being mean. That it was selish and mean of me not to accept abusive predators into my life. Fuck! If only there was one normal person in my FOO! Having to be nice to a crazy, evil MN sister who had no friends set me up big time.

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    3. I am new here. I am entering week three of no contact this time. I want to stay strong. He has been creative in his method of causing me pain remotely. As if bedding someone i used to like nd then sending them my way to disappoint me would break my heart. They all suck.

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  10. " I consider myself fairly perceptive and analytical, but the thing is, I'm always at war with my own good judgement. It's like a constant back and forth and that's when the N slips in. I doubt a non-predator would even pick up on my conflicted thinking, but these narcs just seem to have a six sense for that kind of thing."
    You nailed it right here. I also consider myself perceptive and analytical, but by far the biggest war that I'm fighting is the one that involves my own good judgement. I know damn well what these people are all about, yet whenever I run across one, I almost feel the need to consult with others just to confirm what I already know. Crazy, right? If I could somehow find a way to trust my own instincts and feel secure in my own judgment, half of the battle would already be won.

    "A therapist once said to me, "You better watch it, people are going to take advantage of your good nature." I thought, huh?! Good nature?!Me?"
    You aren't alone here either - I had the exact same reaction. Good nature? Me? No way! It was drilled into our heads from such a young age that we were worthless, hypersensitive, mean, selfish ect. that hearing something like this is almost a shock to the system. It took me many, many years to accept the fact that I am a good person who is worthy of nothing less than love and respect.

    From my dealings with other ACONS, I can say with 100% certainty that they are some of the most amazing people who I've ever had the privilege of knowing. Generally speaking, I find them to be kind, caring, highly empathetic, and honest. The added bonus here is that almost all of them have this dark, twisted sense of humor which I really love...I kind of think we needed this to have even survived a N's bullshit.

    "Fuck! If only there was one normal person in my FOO!"
    My thoughts exactly!!! I also had not one single sane person in my FOO. As a matter of fact, there was no sane adult figure in my life period. With all of the crazy as an example, I have no idea how the hell I even turned out to be halfway normal...Maybe what saved me was the fact that I knew from a very young age that I never wanted to be anything like my mother, so I fought it my whole life.

    As a fellow ACON who had no stable adult figure around, what do you think saved you?

    (You don't have to answer this if you don't feel like it. I'm just curious because we seem to be a minority...Most ACONS that I've spoken with had at least one somewhat stable person around.)

    ANON

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    1. ANON, this is a really nice post. Thank you! I especially like what you wrote about ACON's kind nature and their dark, twisted sense of humour. Sometimes I think humour saved my life. In my darkest hour, I could usually see the absurdity in any given MN situation. MNs pull the kind of shit that you just can't make-up. It seriously is the stuff of fiction. We all grew-up in bizarro world, with parents that barely passed as human, and some of the stunts they pull are truly mind boggling. I remember a comment on the blog where you wrote about offering food etc. to your mother, and instead of accepting your help, she jimmied the lock to your house, broke in, and pulled a cat burglar stunt and STOLE food etc. How can we not have rich senses of humour when our parent's insanity borders on entertaining. What they do is cruel, evil, and just plain weird. In some ways they are fascinating monsters. What blows my mind is how they get away with all the crazy behavior.

      You asked: "As a fellow ACON who had no stable adult figure around, what do you think saved you?"

      This is a good question. I had a therapist say to me, "Growing-up you must have had at least one kind adult in your life or you wouldn't have turned-out so well adjusted." I guess that's debatable, but I honestly couldn't think of anyone, no relative, grandparent etc. So she asked me if there was a teacher or a neighbour. Then I remembered my next door neighbours. The lady next door loved me, and so did her little kids. I would go over there after school and play with her children and she was always so happy to see me. I was sort of like a babysitter except that I was still really young too, around age 6 - 11 I hung-out there, until we moved. I remember doing arts and crafts with her kids in the kitchen, and she would be cooking away and would talk to me like a human being. She would ask me about school, and my friends, she had an interest in me and my life. Also my best friend's family pretty much adopted me from age 6, and I spent a lot of time over at her house well into my teens. It felt good to be in environments where I felt like I existed and mattered and I wasn't treated with callous indifference or contempt. I guess those back-up families helped me.

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  11. Your memory is quite impressive - I completely forgot! What's strange is that I had to read it like three times for this to sink in that this is my life, and my crazy-ass mother who did this. When I originally told the story, I thought it was stupid, but reading as you wrote it back to me, I can clearly see that this was totally insane...And hilarious! LMAO Who could make this shit up?

    What would we have done without senses of humor? I can't even begin to imagine. In my case, I can say that I don't think I would have survived without it. I remember my mother having a hissy fit because one of her husbands was flirting with another woman. This crazy bitch had a full blown temper tantrum, screaming, cussing, and picking up the back end of a car, with the grande finale being that she tossed a couple of large green dumpsters over like they were nothing (big, heavy, full of trash - the kind you roll on wheels because nobody can pick them up)...I was scared as hell, but knew not to say a word or I'd receive whatever was left of her rage. I stayed quiet until we got home, went to my room and ended up drawing a cartoon of a cross between her and the incredible hulk tossing dumpsters in the air - the fear melted into giggles.

    It sounds like that neighbor made a world of difference for you. People like this will probably never understand what a difference they made in our lives by merely taking the time to do what our parents wouldn't - treating us like human beings. (I almost felt badly for asking this question because you already give so much of yourself to write this blog, yet here I am asking for more. Thanks for sharing.)

    For me, I think it was a couple of teachers. My third grade teacher in particular took to me - I think she sensed that something was off. I was like a 30 year old social worker stuffed in the body of a nine year old; either that, or the school counselor had alerted her to the fact that I had been sexually abused. Either way, she was very kind, and actually talked to me like I mattered. Up until that point, no one else had treated me this way, so I was really crazy about her, and quite sad when it was time to move to the next grade...I'm sure she's either long since retired or possibly even deceased by now - sure wish I could have thanked her.

    ANON

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    1. Okay. I had to read the Incredible MNM Hulk story a few times because it is so well written and so damn funny! Geesh, the rage in that woman... and over a little flirting?! I can only imagine how terrifying it would be to be a child at the receiving end of that temper. Lifting cars and tossing dumpster?! I love that you drew a cartoon of her. Can you imagine what The Hulk would have done if she had found it? Anyway, you should consider taking those MNM Hulk stories and those drawing skills of yours and creating a graphic novel. Could be dark, disturbing and very comical.

      "My third grade teacher in particular took to me - I think she sensed that something was off. I was like a 30 year old social worker stuffed in the body of a nine year old..."

      Thank heaven for these teachers, and random adults that entered our lives and noticed us... and cared. Even if it was only for a brief period, they made a difference in our lives. It was if finally... FINALLY we had an example of a good/nice adult and we could compare them to our parents. Thus confirming what we always knew... our parents were effed-up beyond all imagination.

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  12. Lisette, this post resonated with me so much! Just a few days ago, I thought of how my Narcissistic Malignant Mother had trained me to be prey to the world out there. She really did me a disfavor, and turned me into a defenseless adult. But I coudln't put my feelings into words, and you have come along and put in writing how I was feeling but couldn't express. You are brilliant, what you write is absolute gold! Please know that I'm a big fan of yours, and I read everything you have posted. Often times, I even print what you write and reread it before I go to bed, it's really empowers me and helps me fight the good fight against Narcissists. You are a beacon of light amidst all the insany out there! Keep fighting the good fight, because you inspire me to do the same against these Ns. Susan

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    1. Susan, thank you for this. I know how much bloggers like Anna V and Kathy K helped me so if I can do for someone what they did for me, it makes fighting Ns the most worthwhile battle. I like the idea of reading and re-reading post for strength and to get that tune-up we always need. When I find myself getting a little too soft about these predators, all I have to do is read posts by my favourite writers on the subject. That gets my anger juices flowing again, and ensures I will be on the alert for Ns. Sometimes all we need is taste of N bootcamp to maintain our defences against these predators. It's great to hear you're fighting the good fight. Truth to power!

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  13. As I was copying this link to send to a friend of mine, I re-read the post, and in the process had a little bit of an ah-ha moment.

    It only just now occurred to me why I really am a magnet for Ns - Not only was I trained to put up with more shit than most, but compared to my MN mother, a run-of-the-mill N wouldn't initially seem that bad. I really do have a problem recognizing the lesser Ns because they don't seem as evil as my mother.

    Back when I first escaped the family home, I had ridiculously low standards. I was susceptible to the charming ways of Ns, and unable recognize the abuse, actually thought they were nice...All because the abuse was less than what I suffered at the hands of my mother, and all because these people actually seemed to be nice in between - something that my mother rarely bothered to do unless she had a reason (her thing was mostly get the hell away from me/don't bother me, then abuse when I didn't comply).

    I don't know if this will resonate with anyone else here, but wanted to share just in case.

    ANON

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    1. ANON, your post resonated with me big time. You articulated my experience EXACTLY. When you go out in the world with low to no standards then the lesser Ns seem okay, even nice at times. We may think we are with "better" people, but they are just a milder version of the same old N.

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    2. I can relate to what you posted, anon. The "nice in between" use to trip me up all the time.Now I look for people who are nice all of the time and show compassion for others.These type of people are hard to come by.

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  14. ^Anon, your "nice in between" also articulated the hair-splitting I engage in between "Garden Variety" Ns and MNs. Thanks!
    TW

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  15. Hi there all,


    First this, I cried a little (crying is very difficult for me).when I read the article, especially about the
    lonliness. In my youth I always felt very alone and have never understood that, until recently that is.

    Nice article and believe me I can relate to this all.
    I was adopted at age 1 or 2 or so and raised in an N-family. (so much for screening).
    I recently found out my stepfather was an N N N N N N. what a relief! And I am 54!
    what did I know?
    I wasn't allowed to meet my biological mother, and more like that.
    Anyway, I don't know how I do it, but I do it! Now I have a extremely nice girlfriend who was raised by narcissist and I know now, because I have seem them operating up close. Creepy isn't the right word, but more of an eufism. Life has been hell for her and she didn't see it! To be hurt was the norm and being nice to each other happens only on distant planets acording to them. Unbelievable to see.
    But what is worse, I have studied psychology for a few years and seen lots and lot s of 'counselors' and THEY DONT GET IT!!! They really think you can talk and have a dialogue with a N. Impossible!!
    (I know there are very rare exceptions). But they nearly all advice the client to talk and talk to the N.they don't understand an N won't really listen.Now that I have said that,I also found out that in the so called alternative health field there are more people who understand this better than any psychologist or psychiatrist (don't let me start about psychiatrists!!!). Anyway I found out the best way, to observe the very toxic N family. If my girlfriend had only told me, I probably hadn't believed everyhting. Now I know it is even much worse than you can Imagine!

    May your readers heal in positive and transforming ways.

    Namaste!

    Martho
    Holland

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  16. "I was adopted at age 1 or 2 or so and raised in an N-family. (so much for screening)."

    Martho, so much for screening is right! But who can screen for them when no one knows what to look for?! Like you said, most of these so-called professionls DON'T GET IT. I find the only people who do, are the people who have lived it. It's only those with a "text-book understanding" that would advise talking to a N about their part in a relationship. Talk to a N about feelings? I can't think of a more frustrating endeavor. Plus, when you expose your "feelings" to a N, you just provide them with more supply/ammo. NOT a wise thing to do.

    I'm glad you and your girlfriend found each other. When we have people in your life that "get it" it makes things a lot easier to deal with.

    Namaste!

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    1. Lisette

      Thank you. Now, today my eyes were opened more and more about the MN!!!
      I had my ideas about them but today I've really seen the Malignnent in the N and
      now I am changed much more in attitude towards the monster! No more sympathy!
      It's gooooooooooooooooooooneeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. the little that was left.
      I am talking about my father in law. This is what happened today.
      We were at my brother in law's house and we had a good time and relaxed time with the newborn baby. So far so good.
      Entering the MN (father in law). My mother in law was there also and she did and does really a lot of things and I am talking a LOT of things like cooking, cleaning, washing , taking care of the baby and what have you. Now she is sitting on the couch and I am reading the tv guide.My stepfather sits down at the same couch as her. Then, completely out of the blue, he starts ranting to her that she has to clean the house,mop the house, walk up the stairs , walk down the stairs, help my brother in law by doing all sort of things and he even said that she is not on a visit , but here to work!. In the meantime he hadn't done ONE THING in the house or for her. NOTHING. I was a bit scared and my mother in law said nothing and went to the kitchen. I also went to the kitchen and asked her is she was ok, but she diverted the whole thing by talking about the babymilk. Now I don't know if my point comes across here, but when I went home I cried (as I told earlier it is very difficult for me to cry), and I said to my girlfriend that I just have been watching how someone was psychologically stapped to death! I even compared with the feeling one get from a sick horror scene in a horror movie. It felt if I have just been witnessing that someone was cut in half with an axe or something like that! Unbelievable!!!!! When we went home I just couldn't give him a hand and I ignored him. Later I also felt a bit guilty that I haven't said a thing, but, in my defense, at first I didn;t even know what was happening and couldn't belive it! My god! What a terrible monster he is! Again, if someone had told me I probably hadn't believed it. As I said before it is much worse then what people can imagine. On a brighter note, This kind of things let me understand my girlfriend better en better and I respect her very much for surviving a home like that.
      I know I couldn't have done that. No way!
      (I am from Holland an hope my english is good enough to understand)

      Kind regards

      Namaste!

      Martho

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    2. Martho, your english is very good. I can understand you perfectly. It must be difficult to be in the presence of this horrible man, and to feel helpless to defend the women he's abusing. These MNs put the fear in all of us. They create a very tight "family" prison system that few can penetrate. There are rules that have been set in place long before you arrived on the scene. The only way out is to escape. Go no contact. I hope one day you and your girlfriend can leave that monster behind and bring the mother with you, but I don't believe that is realistic unless you want one hell of a fight. Your gf definitely is a survivor, I hope she breaks free of the horrible system she's been imprisoned in, and you can start a life together far, far away from the MN.

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    3. Lisette

      Thank you so very much for your reply and yes you are right. Best thing to do is no contact.
      And yes that 'family' is very closed and difficult to penetrate. However, at the moment it is
      also unrealistic to go no contact, because my girlfriend is improving the relationship with her mother. And to be real, her mother is very disturbed at the moment and in an enormous denial about it all. But, in all fairness, she is working on herself right now, so that is a good thing. My girlfriend also hints a lot to her about the 'monster'.
      But when we go to her home the monster is always there. But If she choose to leave we will indeed risk a hell of of a fight, but we will help her. Nobody, and I reapet nobody deserves to be treated that way!!
      Now, there ar some more problems here and if someone has a helpfull idea.
      His son, my brorther in law, is also very narcissistic(can you blame him, with a father like that?). And as I have written, they have a new baby. All very cute and well,
      But I think you people can guess my concern regarding the baby.
      First , I think the son of the narcissistic father does his best, but I can see already psychological problems.Especially when I hear how 'good' the baby is. Here they are saying how good the baby conforms!. My god. Then I here them say that it is no good to spoil the baby! Excuse me, spoil a baby????And "they have to keep their distance to the baby" so the baby won't get used too much and doesn't cling to much?????? Excuse me?
      I though babies are supposed to be near her mother and supposed to cling.
      What's wrong with the picture here?
      And now for something else. Seen what a monster the father is, I am very very afraid to let him , and especially him alone, too much near the baby.
      I know it will be treated like dirt. But what to do??? I feel very powerless about all of this.
      But they even don't listen to me about 'normal stuff, so I don't even try about this.
      But I am really very afraid of what will eventually happen to this baby.
      What I can see now is, that I can wait till the baby matured and if she need help we willl be there for her.But it is also possible that she can , by that time, being damaged too much already.
      And, maybe, all this, is none of my business at all.

      Kind regards

      Martho

      Holland

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    4. ok, I reply to myself now, but what the heck. ;)

      Anyway, last sunday the baby from the N-family was to be baptized,
      (I completely disagree with doing that but well, that's another story).
      I wrote about the 'monster' ( the father) in the family, and sure enough he gave his holy speech at the baptism. How we have to love each other and bla bla bla. Sickening!
      But how about this? Before the baptizing the baby was hold by her father & mother etc,
      So far so good, After the baptizing te baby was laid down in the corner on a crib or something like that, and now everyone else did go their own way. There she was, the baby in the corner, all alone now, and father and mother where interacting with the adults.
      Maybe I am too negative here, I don't know, but it felt like the baby was cast away after the baptizing. They had her used for their narcissitic suplly.Or am I exeggarating? The thing is with this people that sometime I start questioning my own sanity.

      Kind regards

      Martho

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    5. Martho, we all question our sanity when it comes to these monsters. Their behaviour defies everything that is normal. But we are not so much paranoid as we are vigilant, and we must be vigilant because they are not to be trusted. I think it's great "The Monster" is being watched and he is unaware. Study his evil ass and always stay one step ahead.

      Delete
    6. Hi Lisette,What a great blog!!I found it today,Ive been searching the internet since 1 1/2 years now,as a victim of narcissism(28 long years)'
      I'd like to say something to Martho too(I;m from Holland too),there's not much we can do,except show other victims we are there for them.No,you are definately not negative or exeggarating,you bet they use children as supply,they all do,that makes it so much harder,almost impossible to live with.If you like,you can get in touch with me.My cousin and another friend of her(both victims)are setting up a foundation,especially for the victims of Narcs,psychopaths,in this country,so we are looking for many other victims,to share their stories!
      We have to let the world know what monsters they are.

      Kind regards,

      Anonymous(for now)

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    7. It's great that you folks from Holland found each other. Anonymous (for now), your foundation sounds really interesting, and if you are able, I would love to learn more about it. I'm glad you are here!

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    8. Hi Anonymous from Holland! Nice to meet you.
      What a great idea the foundation! Keep me informed.
      I know it will also be needed by one over 20 years or so.
      Offcourse I am referring to the baby.
      I think you are right about me not exagerating, but
      I find it extremely difficult to swallow and sometimes
      to be in denial feels safer ( I know it isn't).
      I can tell you that it is bizarre in the extreme to see
      how they handle their baby! And I feel so powerless
      because I can't do a thing!

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    9. Anonymous from Holland, how can we come into contact with one another?

      Kind regards

      Martho

      Delete
  17. I am glad Ive found this site and I hope it helps me...I am truly lost. I was completely trapped by a very crazy man since birth..I was a direct insult to his manhood by being born female and I paid, big time. ,He died when I was 45. I have no husband or children, that was something I didnt deserve. Now making a decision is a nightmare, all my decisions were over ridden so now I second guess myself, alot. I have no idea of how to do common simple things like, Im ashamed to say, how to sort the garbage. I am seeing a therpist but that wasnt an easy thing to achieve at all and Im not sure its helping. Im trying hard to figure this all out, reading all I can find but...WOW. I managed to out live him, my only way to escape but I didnt escape, I cant get rid of it. Thank you for providing me something that might help me cope.

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    1. Anonymous, is the man you speak of your father? Do you believe he was a narcissist? What do you mean by you were "trapped"? Did you live with him until his death?

      Even though he IS dead, the effects of a lifelong relationship with a crazy person will not go away over night.

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    2. Hi

      Please don't be ashamed. I know it doesn't work that way, but still.
      HE should be ashamed and it seems you are carrying his shame.
      Have a LOT, and I mean a LOT of compassion for yourself because
      you lived in and through hell. My girlfriend has also a lot of issues but she is working on them and it always saddens me when she is angry or ashamed at herself. Because I know so much of her background I have a lot of patience with her and that helps her.
      As far as I am concerned you can see yourself as survivors of concentration camps.
      Maybe even worse because of all the confusion. At the camps you knew who your enemy was!
      No kidding here!


      Take Care!

      Namaste!



      Martho

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  18. Just wanted you to know that I sent this link to a good friend of mine (an ACoN), who then forwarded it to another friend of hers. I doubt that either one of them would be comfortable enough to comment (although I did encourage my friend to jump in), so I'm going to comment for them: They loved the post and think that you're brilliant!

    Just wanted to pass that along. :)

    ANON

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    1. Well, I'm glad you did. There's no need to comment, flattery will do. ;)

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  19. Lisette,
    Since I started reading your blog a week ago or so -- I've now read every post, some twice -- I'm finally losing the guilt about going LC/NC and I'm not as angry and I even find myself laughing about some of the crap my Ns have pulled. The MNs and Ns in my life had me feeling suicidal for years, but now I feel happy to be alive and more in control of the situations in my life. I feel SO validated! Thank you to all the commenters here too because you've helped me by courageously sharing your stories and heartaches and incredible insights as well.

    I know that doubt and anger can easily slip back into my life but now I have resources to turn to like this one and I finally have a gameplan that I feel confident about. - Jean Jeanie

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    1. Jean Jeanie, this is so good to hear. Thank you for your post. It's also great to know that you're getting a good laugh at the N's expense. You sound very empowered and I am happy for you. Truth to power!

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  20. I wonder how many ACONs never went through normal teenage rebellion because it wasn't allowed.

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  21. Normal teenage rebellion?! Ha! I wasn't allowed to be a damn child. I was "trained" to be a mini adult at all times. No joyful exuberance or vitality in my N home. By the time I was a 11 I felt like a geriatric, and I looked like one too. I remember a photo of me around that age and I looked like a little old lady. I had the weary eyes of someone who was carrying the weight of the world on her shoulders. I think I had my teenage rebellion when most people have their mid-life crisis.

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    1. Interesting your comment about your age!
      I felt , when I lived with my stepfather, like I was 40 years old while I was in my twenties,
      wrinkled face and all!
      Now I am 54 but I look (and feel) much younger than then.
      I think, looking back, that it was unbelievable heavy and no idea then why, so I had lots of complexes and issues. I agree that people who live though this kind of hell are exceptionally strong!

      Namaste!


      Martho

      Holland

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  22. "Teen-age Rebellion?" I would have been too terrified to even consider it-are you kidding? My mere existence was enough to spark a rage and all I had to do was breathe. Why would I intentionally poke the rabid dog?! I was just tryin' to survive, fly below the MNarc-Dar and barely hangin' on as it was...
    TW

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  23. Teenage Rebellion? Hell no, I was inflicting a kind of super-self-punishing-perfectionism "I must be absolutely perfect at all times" so that people I came into contact with wouldn't realise that I was an inherently defective person without worth as I had been trained to see myself. Unfortunately most of those people recognised my desperation to please others at all costs as my begging for approval and acceptance (which it was) and they took huge advantage of me. Rebellion came later, in my mid-thirties, when I began to speak the truth. There isn't any greater form of rebellion about Narcs than speaking the truth about them and what they do, not delayed 'normal teenage rebellion' at all, because we were fighting for our lives and minds and sanity, not pushing boundaries to find out where our own were, not exploring our talents and which talents defined us best - we had no chance to spend our teenage years in service to the developing Self. We had to suppress our Self to stay alive. We weren't out there having fun hanging out. We were trying to teach ourselves how to live. I didn't even know how to laugh. Like you Lisette I must have looked like a little old lady. Teachers would say things like, "you aren't a normal 12 year old, you have such an old head on young shoulders." And one of them said to me out of the blue one day, "You will escape. You will survive. Don't let them kill your belief in yourself. One day you will be free." I was absolutely mystified, I didn't the faintest idea what he was talking about. Of course we were "old" Lisette, we parented ourselves in any way we could from the beginning. Looking back I realise that I had "sad eyes" as a child for any adult to see if they wanted to. Two of the teachers obviously did see, and one was critical of my "extreme self reliance" in a school report, which I thought then was a criticism of me, but later realised it was a very pointed comment about the neglect of me. Overall she was quite a strict teacher to other children but went out of her way to be kind to, supportive of, and encouraging to me for the whole year I was in her class at 9 years old. She remains in my memory all these decades later as a great turning point in my life, the foundation stone onto which I would one day start to construct the healing of my Self. She was the first person who looked at me with the warm loving eyes of approval. People were scared of my powerful family especially
    my vicious malignant narc mother but this teacher took her on a couple of times for sending me to school when I was extremely ill,(medical care was considered wasted on me), writing letters of rebuke to the NM who paraded herself as a pillar of society and saviour of needy children (her charity "work", which I had to do for her after school, door knocking to sell raffle tickets and raise funds, which the NM then took the credit for), while she and my golden brother gorged themselves at leisure on their treat foods. For us, telling the truth is our rebellion against the monstrous lies and evil we witnessed and endured, and we do it not only to set ourselves free but in the hope that others will find that freedom earlier and easier to access than we did. Trained to serve others, we could at last serve others in the service of the truth, and validate our own experience too.

    I looked so old when I was young and when I was older and in possession of the truth of my experience, I began to look younger! Part of our looking so old perhaps was also trying not to put ANY look on our faces, year in, year out, because we knew it was asking for more trouble. Lisette, we didn't have a childhood, but "baby, look at us now!!!!!!!"

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  24. Anna, I love your posts! They always send me deep into thought. There's still a couple that I want to let percolate before I reply.

    "Baby look at us now!!!!" Oh yeah! We've got the Benjamin Button thing going on. I was told by adults when I was a pre-teen and teen that I looked "wise." All the teachers commented on my report cards that I was "conscientious." Yeah. Hyper vigilant and watchful of my environment. I wonder why? And I had a teacher in elementary school and one in high school both say that I see things that other people don't see. "I see dead people." Actually the blackened dead soul of my "mother." Now people call me "youthful." Go figure. Yes, we are experiencing the greatest form of rebellion of all: speaking the truth about narcs!

    "There isn't any greater form of rebellion about Narcs than speaking the truth about them and what they do, not delayed 'normal teenage rebellion' at all, because we were fighting for our lives and minds and sanity, not pushing boundaries to find out where our own were, not exploring our talents and which talents defined us best - we had no chance to spend our teenage years in service to the developing Self. We had to suppress our Self to stay alive."

    TRUTH.

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  25. I rebelled as a teenager. Of course that just gave nparents more amo to use against me as the scapegoat.

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  26. Thank you so much to all regarding teenage rebellion. My spouse is an adult child of a narcissist. I say adult child because he, too, was old beyond his years. As a child, he was the only adult in the family, which is not a childhood at all.

    We're now raising a teenager, having cut all contact with my spouse's narcissistic family. I see teenage rebellion in our child as a sign that we have cut the ties with that intergenerational dysfunction. It's a good thing.

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  27. It is a good thing. It all stops with you and your family.

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  28. I am honored to have found all of your life experiences. You begin to mention that there was a person in your life that gave you hope and seen the good in you - either a teacher neighbor or parent of a friend - i am one of those and am looking for advice, guidance maybe some hope. Two years ago i met a you d man via a daughter they were both just turning 15 - this boy was amazing and i could see that he had a bright future with goals and dreams - he told me that he and his sister had only been living with his mom for 2 or 3 short years but had been raised by his very normal father within the first year or so he told my daughter and described the very things you wrote about "There is absolute control, invasion of privacy, brainwashing, punishment for original thought, isolation, silencing, secretiveness, group think, fraud and dictatorship to name a few." As a mom that could never imagine treating my babies this way I came to love him like my own. Now mind you he would tell me how him and his sister would sit in their room and talk about the bizarre things happening in their home, he would tell me how when he turned 18 he was leaving and never looking back.

    Less then 8 months ago he came to me and asked me to help him. He told me his sister was being abused by the step dad - I made the call and she was quickly removed.

    His N mom went crazy removed him from school cut off all contact from me, my daughter, his sister and friends, it was a quick whirlwind of craziness and of course all the complaints to the police and cps ended with bad parenting is not against the law - the sister is safe and in therapy but the boy is still there. Every time I saw him he told me his mom was out to get me and my daughter, she went as far as calling my job, but that didn't work either.

    N mom is in the process of losing her rights to daughter due to she believes her spouse didnt do anything- daughter is a liar as he just pled guilty. At this point I believe she has told the boy the sister is a liar bla bla bla and I don't know where to go from here - does he believe his mom? Do i need to get him court documents that state otherwise? I have to save him. Is he really blinded by mom or does he know and is waiting it out he will be 18 in October.

    I talk to the sister who says he will come around, she knows what it is to live in a house were they tell u what to think and when to think. I'm at a loss for how to help him, will the truth set him free?

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  29. He went to live with his NM about 4 years ago in his early teens, from living in a benign situation with his father, so what happened to his father?

    You wonder does he believe his mother? Why would he? He already had a frame of reference for her behaviour, and he was the whistleblower about his sister's abuse. He may not have realised how far this would go, but he did break the silence. His NM removed him from school, I assume, to punish, silence and isolate him for whistleblowing to you and to try and prevent him from extending this. His sister knows the situation from the inside out, and says that he will come round. It sounds like he already knows the truth and hasn't had any illusions about the situation so far.

    Is he effectively being kept a hostage until he turns 18 in October? Does anyone outside have contact with him? Can he contact outside agencies? So what is the situation with the father?

    His first need is not reality so far as I can see - seems he has that -it's safety, a safe place to recover from the psychological and emotional battering of living with Narcs, the way they exhaust your body spirit and soul with their foul lies and parasitical attachment to scapegoats.

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  30. Lil more history. Sorry I was so excited to find a place that could possibly guide me. Mom has been married 3 times and has at least two kids from each, brother and sister were left with dad cuz she was moving on to the next money bags before the two could walk. Bio dad is in his late 70's mom early 40s - bio dad says he sent the kids to her because they wanted to know their mom, he said the day he put them on a plane to her it was the worst decision he could have ever made. Dad has been in contact with child protective Svcs but mom is using her fake tears and yelling he's to old to raise the kids. However he is part of all the daughters court proceedings via phone. As for the boy yes he has been isolated from everyone, however I just heard that he has gone back to school ( I think cps asked wtf) it's my understanding that he has a completely different group of friends ( not bad ones just not the same) Idk if he believes the N or is just going within so he doesn't have to be the target. Before all of this he absolutely knew his home was not normal. He ran once and ended up at my house with the cops right behind him. Her attorney is just as N as she is - he told him that they would file charges on him for being incoragable, the school just listened to him but made no attempt the police just said CPS was in charge and they say bad parenting isn't against the law, he went as far as writing letters to the DA, but again they were concerned for the sister, so the reality is he has had know one to support him and all his roads ended in dead ends.

    N just went to therapy with daughter arrived 15 mins late, yelled at daughter for 15 mins and walked out but before she did she left her brothers phone numbers, when cps called the numbers they were disconnected... Imagine that, when cps called her on it she wouldn't answer their phone call...

    It's sad cuz I know he won't contact us because he believes mom would do everything in her narcissistic power to hurt my daughter and I - do you think he is ok and understands whats going on and how to play the game or is he mentally lost forever
    Thoughts....?

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    1. The Accountant9 April 2013 at 04:30

      "do you think he is ok and understands whats going on and how to play the game or is he mentally lost forever"

      From your story, I'd say he'll probably be all right. I too am worried about what his mother is doing to him right now, but consider this: Most of us here were raised by narcissists for all of our childhood and didn't realize what we were dealing with until well into adulthood. If we were not "mentally lost forever", your young friend has a good chance of not being either. He has a great head start in that he was raised by a healthy loving parent for most of his childhood, and he knows right now that his mother is not a healthy and safe person. I hope he escapes when he turns 18.

      In the meantime, can one put pressure on CPS as to why the daughter has been taken away from the mother, but the son has been left with her? NMother's performance at the therapy session could be a good argument for that. Another possible way to help him would be through school.

      Take care,
      TA

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    2. FWIW, I agree w/TA: "..he'll probably be all right." Unfortunately, when CPS tells you they can't remove a child because, "...bad parenting isn't against the law" it's a sad but absolute reality. If you wonder, "HOW can this be??" take a look at the history in the US of "Child Welfare" and you'll understand how these laws came into effect and why it's damn near impossible to get a kid out of an abusive home with a biological "Mummy" with primary custodial rights. Believe me, I do hear your frustration.
      Many of us chose the *only* recourse we had, which was, "Fly under the radar as much as possible" until we could get out. Even if you could procure a hard copy of the Court proceedings (which "legally," you can't, ;) he's a minor) it wouldn't make any difference and in fact, may make the stress he's living under even worse. The last thing any of us needed was someone else pulling on our arm so to speak when we already know what the deal is and we're biding our time until we're 18.
      Look at what you HAVE accomplished and please, please don't minimize this: You have provided an "Enlightened Witness" (Alice Miller) to both of these kids. You have no idea how it feels to have a "grown-up," an adult who hears us and validates us. This had life-long implications for me and many other ACs I've come across. I know-no, I assume and please correct me if I'm wrong, OK?-from your Comment you feel you were successful at "saving" the girl because she was removed from the home. Everything "worked" for her, including her own internal resources to speak the ugly truth to several unknown, not trusted adults besides you-who she clearly trusted. That's a huge deal when you're a kid.
      Listen to what the daughter is telling you: "He will come around." I believe as well he will and I don't believe he's lost sight of you, reality or what he needs to do in the meantime. His strategy is "Duck and Cover until I'm 18." He doesn't have a GAL and as a non-family member, right now there's nothing you can do as you have no Legal Standing. Respectfully, I wouldn't continue to call CPS only because it will appear you have some sort of vendetta against the mother (which she'll play to the hilt) AND when they go to investigate, she'll pull the whole MOTY thing in their presence, but as soon as they leave, the whole Rage-Offload will fall on him.
      Thank you so much for caring. You've done what you can at the present time. In the event you have absolute, irrefutable evidence of abuse, please use the STATE 1-800 hotline, OK? But only if you have absolute proof of physical abuse. As dismal as that sounds, you can be sure MN "Momster" has upped her game secondary to loosing physical custody of the daughter. Believe me, unless they actually catch her with her foot on this kid's throat, their hands are tied. Of course, the mind-fuckery flies below the radar and since you have no Legal standing here it's not like you can get a Court Ordered Psych Eval including an MMPI-2.
      The end of this story has not been written by any shot, Little One. You have given both of these kids far, far more than you yet understand. You have NOT "failed." Now, you bide your time- with lotsa Mylanta and Maalox ;)
      From the bottom of my old widow lady heart and practical experience, thank you, thank you, thank you: How I wish there were more like you!
      TW

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    3. Well said TW. Yes, the adult who witnesses, cares and does not add to the trivialisation, discounting and denial - that in itself is a rare and very precious gift to the soul of an NM captive, and will not be forgotten when freedom is finally achieved.

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    4. I don't know how to thank you all for sharing your knowledge and kind words. You brought me to tears because I do feel like I failed him. i love him like my own and miss his smile and laugh. He is a very smart young man and I know he will come back around. I just don't do process very well - I am in contact with their aunt who is now the guardian for sister and she keeps me apprised of everything that is happening. She says that CPS does know that "ruthless" is an N and they are just documenting because she is still under investigation for neglect. Intuition tells me in the end they will get her for knowing - since she said she's known "Everything" happening in her house (what i call the house of pain) in front of a therapist sent in by cps.

      Again thank you for all your support and validating what I have believed yet need confirmation with. Everything for reasons right? This will make him stronger, he will pass another life test :) and his sister is on her journey to being healthy and will be spending the night with my daughter and I this weekend.

      Here's praying for the next 7 months to fly bye...

      With much peace and respect

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  31. Today I have been re-reading People of the Lie after many years. (Shocked to realise that Peck wrote it in the first half of the 1980s, and though he put it out there, almost 100% of the 'therapeutic' community have taken almost no notice at all, what does that tell us...). This paragraph fits the aftershock of narcissistic abuse so clearly:

    "To come to terms with evil in one's parentage is perhaps the most difficult and painful psychological task a human being can be called upon to face. Most fail and so remain its victims. Those who fully succeed in developing the necessary searing vision are those who are able to name it. For to 'come to terms' is to 'arrive at the name'."

    Another passage which seemed so apt for us as HOM survivors was: "the child can only emotionally survive by virtue of massive fortification of its psyche - these fortifications are essential to its survival in childhood yet inevitably distort or compromise its life as an adult".

    Personally I think that undoing the damage cited in the second quotation is an even harder task than the first, and that it is an individual soul journey, ie a different experience for each soul, though the beginning point for everyone, I suspect, is the same: the self trust to believe in the integrity of one's own feelings and that deeper sense of intuition which enables us to sense the presence of evil.

    If someone had given me this book when I was 17, I don't think I would have understood what Peck was describing as relative to my experience, even though MNs had been my daily experience since infancy. Because I didn't trust my own perceptions then. Peck was much criticised for not providing a definition of evil in this book, yet he did indeed supply one (p107): "Evil is the power to destroy the spiritual growth of others for the purpose of defending and preserving one's own sick self". The main critics were, not surprisingly, the 'therapeutic community'.

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  32. Hello again friends

    What an incredible weekend it was with the daughter who I will call J. That I have mentioned in my previous messages. What an incredible young woman. I would like to buy her a book that will help her understand more about her N mom. Here are a few things I heard her say while she was with me for two days. 1) she feels everything is her fault. 2) she somewhat understands that she will never have a real mom who will nurture her. She knows she has a long road of healing, she knows that she will never live with N mom again. She is 15 and I think her reading something that speaks to what she has lived could be very helpful. There are tons of books but I consider you my experts, so if you have any guidance you could give it would be much appreciated :)

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    1. 2) she somewhat understands that she will never have a real mom who will nurture her.

      I hope she understands that her mother is not capable of nurturance and this has nothing to do with her. I was able to understand this at a very young age, and sure, I felt unloved, even hated, but I didn't think it was all my fault. I truly understood that my MN mother was bent. With that understanding came acceptance and I never had expectations of her, or felt disappointed. Hurt? Yes. But I knew I couldn't get blood out of a stone. That's probably why I was able to go No Contact in my early 20s - I knew she was never going to change. What I saw was what I got, but that didn't mean I was stuck with her. 22 years No Contact and counting.

      I'm really glad you were able to get some helpful feedback from HOM readers. As far as books go, I can't think of any off hand. But maybe someone else has some ideas. My first suggestion would be ACON blogs, but they are written by adults and can be pretty hardcore. She's probably not ready to hear her mother is an evil bitch... at least not yet. Just a little ACON humour. ;)

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    2. I'd ask the Aunt to ask the T she's working with for age-appropriate reading material so every one's on the same page and she's getting a consistent message. "Will I Ever Be Good Enough?" is PC and really speaks to N "mothers." The "Stop Walking on Eggshells" series may be OK, but that's more along the Borderline stuff and a "How To" if you want to remain in a relationship with a Cluster B and gawd knows, you don't want that!
      Yk, giving birth doesn't make you a "mother"-It makes you "Post-Partum" period, the end ;) What you and Aunt are providing her is just invaluable. Thanks so much!
      TW

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  33. Lisette, thank you for this blog. Having lived the 15 first years of my life under the same roof with a narc grandmother, I find your words so cathartic. My mother managed to get me out of that house of horrors but not before much damage was done. How much I had not realised until my recent victimization of another predator disguised as a friend. I feel so stupid and worthless because of her constant abuse, especially when I hear family members and friends shrugging it off saying that "it's nothing much" or "it's your fault, you're too soft". You're really helping me, thanks!

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    1. Olina, sometimes I think the only thing worse than narcissists are those who make excuses for them. Thank you for letting me know that I'm helping you. I always appreciate hearing that.

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    2. I blame their ignorance not them. You know those freaks can hide their true colours pretty well when they want to. I went NC with grandmonster 7 years ago and I currently try to enforce it with the "friend" and boy is she persistent. Never gave her an explanation I don't think she will listen anyway. She must be furious she lost her little narc supplier coz I didn't see it right away but I had to make sure. I go back and forth about talking to her one last time just to let her know that I uncovered her ass or threaten to expose all the slandering she did to our common friends and gloat at the look on her face. It still boggles me how it seems like others don't know what she is. Fills me with doubt sometimes, other times it enrages me.

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  34. Yk, Olina, the "look on her face" will either be one of contempt with that slight smirky smile because she accomplished what she set out to accomplish:
    - She hurt you and MNs are sadistic as hell.
    -Attention even of the negative kind is still attention and they gotta have it ALL.
    -Drama which they absolutely thrive on, a veritable feeding frenzy for MNs.
    Or she'll melt into a puddle of histrionic tears, weeping and wailing about how she "didn't MEAN" to be mean, "didn't KNOW" and various other excuses for her various abuses: What ever works to keep you around as Supply is her goal and she'll switch up tactics in a heartbeat as a probe for your vulnerabilities.You bet she's furious-and you're about to ensure your point is well made just as you did with grandmonster.
    The only recourse I've found that's effective is totally ignoring them/absolute NC. And the others to whom she's slandered you? Once she can't feed off you, she'll likely target one of them next. As long as you're not having contact with her of any kind you're not only protecting yourself, you're not giving away your strategy either. If you NC'd grandmonster, this monster is no less deserving of your hard-won knowledge re: How to deal with MNs in their various "personas." All that BS/experience with grandmonster will pay off for you now-you're waaayy ahead of the average "ignoramus!"
    Work it, Olina! ;)
    TW

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  35. Are you still around Lisette? I am an ACON
    I am stuck in my family still and need to get out

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    1. Yes Lana, I'm still around. Unfortunately, I've gotten behind in my writing and replying to emails because real life is busy and taking precedent.

      I'm not sure what you are asking of me: "I am stuck in my family and need to get out." Your statement is very broad and could mean anything. If you have a direct question, feel free to ask in the comments section and maybe I or other readers can give you a response. Please remember, I'm an ACON too and living with my own struggles and I do not have the time, energy or credentials to counsel anyone privately.

      Feel free to post whatever is on your mind.

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  36. Do I ignore, confront or carry on speaking to a malignant narcissist who lives in my appartment. I wiil be moving soon...so is it worth any added stress. but she insulted/projected onto my baby daughter something rather sickening. Please help.

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  37. Why are sociopaths so verbally wounding. I am petrified!!!

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