Tuesday, 22 November 2011

The Answer to the Problem of Evil is to Deter it

Here's a good, cut through all the bull sh** article by Kathy Krajco... gleaned from the pages of her site "What Makes Narcissists Tick."

The answer to the problem of evil in the world is to deter it. There. See? Did that take an Einstein? Every child knows this. If somebody punches you, make it cost him. If you don't, expect another punch tomorrow.

I have seen total idiocy among school teachers on this. They think that both kids in a fight are automatically wrong. What simpletons. They need their Commandments boiled down to a cheat sheet of literal dos and don'ts, because they have no moral sense and therefore can't tell right from wrong.

They create the perfect world for bullies. You know, like all the bystanders - who have nothing to say about the narcissist's abuse but condemn you the victim for anything you do to try to put a stop to it.

ANYTHING. They condemn you for hitting back. They condemn you for yelling back. They condemn you for countering the character-assassinating lies he is spreading about you - you must let him murder you this way without showing that he is lying by projection, for that would damage the poor little character assassin's good name! Yes, the holier-than-thous are that crazy. They condemn you for abandoning the poor, hurt little dear. If he or she is in your school, after they have condemned you for every other thing you might do to protect yourself, they seal the door to your torture chamber by condemning you for skipping class. In other words, they insist that you present yourself daily to your abuser for more abuse. AND that you submit to it without doing anything in your defense.

Ah, perversity is endless.

When I began teaching, I was shocked (but later understood) when an old colleague of mine said that he never ran to stop a fight. He timed his arrival to make sure the really angry kid got a few licks in. Why? Because he knew that the school administrators were idiots and that both kids would be punished equally with virtually no effort to find out and stop what had caused the fight. Therefore, those few licks were the only deterrent to the jerk who had started the fight by picking on the other kid till he just couldn't take any more (and feel like he had a spine).

In short, we need to speak up and shout down the idiots who keep preaching that self-defense is a sin and that justice is "revenge" and that you must "forgive" the unforgivable = an offense in progress, a denied offense, a continuing offense = an unrepented offense.

Some people, many people, are amoral. They have no moral restraints. Unless you want to be their victim, you had better teach them an object lesson to go find easier prey.

And no, normal people don't get carried away with the freedom to defend themselves. The control-freak religious rulers and social engineers would have us think so, but that is baloney. Normal people HATE conflict. They hate fighting. The only time they are even tempted to fight is when under some sort of attack. We are just like other animals in this. They snarl and snap at an intrusion or offense and two seconds later have forgotten about it.

Why? Because the purpose was DEFENSIVE - to back the other party off. Once that mission is accomplished, it's done. Getting carried away just doesn't happen when DEFENSE is your cause and goal. It's not even a temptation.

The abuser is the one who has other goals, offensive ones that he or she gets carried away with. It's the abnormal people, those who are predators, who get carried away. And what carries them away is a victim lying down for it.

Ironic, eh? Exactly what the holier-than-thous force the victim to do is what causes the victim to eventually snap and go ballistic. I say let people defend themselves. Then they will put an end to abuse when it starts, long before it escalates to such a point.

We need these sanctimonious hypocrites to stop making out people to be evil if they fight back. Or run away. As in divorce or skipping school. You cannot force people to submit to abuse. That is the Sin of Sodom, otherwise known as making someone bend over for it. It violates the Laws of Nature. And common sense.

Beyond that, all we need is for the mental health profession to do its job by making sure the public IS aware of how many predators are out there. Most people have no idea that predators are not rare and that everyone runs into them. If people knew this, they'd be a good deal more careful and would take warning signs seriously.

What a better, safer world it would then be.


  1. Amen, KK, may you rest in peace you brilliant woman!

    I especially love this little breakdown:

    "In short, we need to speak up and shout down the idiots who keep preaching that self-defense is a sin and that justice is "revenge" and that you must "forgive" the unforgivable = an offense in progress, a denied offense, a continuing offense = an unrepented offense."

  2. Upsi,
    KK was a brilliant woman indeed. I'm grateful for her legacy. That little break down is also one of my favourite pieces of the article. The insanity of the cult of forgiveness never slipped past her great mind.

  3. After reading this I randomly googled something about forgiving people who don't want to be forgiven. On a site some girl had asked how she can forgive her parents for the horrible treatment she suffered at their hands? This is one of her follow-ups. This is text book re-victimizing the victim.*******

    In my family, parents NEVER apologise to their children.
    they are PARENTS .. a high authority.
    we are just ... children ... know where we stand.

    when i read you ... i am ASTOUNDED

    1. by your arrogant attitude.
    to actually DEMAND that your parents seek your forgiveness.

    2. IF you're blessed to be a parent, lets see how good a job you accomplish ...

    3. 5th commandment : HONOUR thy father and thy mother
    honour simply means RESPECT. How can you respect your parents when you expect them to seek your forgiveness ? in other words, YOU are higher than them ?!!

    i suggest you KNOW your place and seek THEIR forgiveness.
    They give you food, shelter, education ... but gosh .. no, its not enough for the queen ...
    the queen is hurt and DEMANDS forgiveness.

    umm ... why don't you ask your parents to kneel before you and say : sorry, we hurt you and did such a terrible job .. bla bla bla . I am sure you'll get a curse from God just for this.

    Oh yeah? Well F you jack!
    And the horse you rode in on!

  4. q1605,
    That's frightening. There's a reason why that abusive, religious fanatic parent is on that particular site. Disgusting.

    Let's read between the lines...

    I am "blessed" to be a parent. As a parent, I am HIGHER than you, and I must be bestowed with HONOUR and RESPECT because of what I am, NOT who I am. I DEMAND and EXPECT total compliance. Don't you dare question my AUTHORITY... for if you do, you will be CURSED by me ALMIGHTY GOD!

    Talk about forcing the victim to submit themselves to abuse... all in the name of God - aka The Abuser.

    Looks like a place in hell just opened up.

  5. q1605, Wow, I wouldn't be able to communicate with that person cause I'd think they were joking all the time. Then I'd be like, oh, you were serious.

  6. Unearned respect isn't respect. IT'S coercion.

    Lisa. I wouldn't be able communicate with someone like that because someone would have to pry me off him with a crow bar.

  7. q1605, WOW, just.....unreal.....don't know where that site is and don't wanna know...."a waste of a crowbar" indeed!

    Deterring evil in terms of utilizing Mental Health (just speaking to my own experience here) would be feasible IF the Courts, Probation and Parole would ACCEPT the recommendations proffered at the request of these same entities. On more than a few occasions I've written letters that have said in part, "There must be significant negative consequences (in response to these criminal activities) before any mental health intervention can even begin to be of any meaningful assistance to this individual. The Mental Health system is NOT in a position to incur such consequences. The Criminal Justice system is in fact the only reasonable recourse to such behavior for the safety of the community at large. There are the treatable and the untreatable. This individual clearly fulfills the latter as demonstrated by (this, this, this etc.) Consequently, mandating treatment for (Mr./Mrs./Ms.) is not only an act of futility but further indicative that criminal behavior does in fact "pay" and their next unsuspecting victim will also pay-perhaps with their life."

    We as individuals absolutely have the right to fight back and society at large does need to become far more aware of the predators among us-regardless of their "title," or position of authority (parent/teacher etc.) Their behavior most likely will never come to the attention of the authorities. Nonetheless, these pds are still predators, abusers and bullies of the worst kind who depend on our very best human qualities (respect, love, empathy, compassion etc.) to work their inhuman evil.

    See that nice, old granny over there? She's gonna terrorize the living shit out of her grandkid(s) just as she did to YOU.....yet these parents seem to think as long as they "monitor" the visits their kids will be "safe." WTF? If YOU as an adult aren't safe around the bitch, how-in what kind of rational, common-sense "reasoning"-could you possibly think your child is "safe" just because you're physically present? What, you're gonna put a gag over granny's mouth? Handcuff her to the chair? All offered in the rationalization that the adult kid thinks their kids "NEED a grandmother/ grandfather/aunt/uncle/"extended family." Talk about total collusion in the on-going cycle of abuse, from one generation to the next....
    Yeesch..........the assumptions that are made are beyond belief insane. And I bet if the parent even asked the kid if they wanted to "visit" the answer would be a resounding "NO."

    And quite frankly I don't have a whole lot of faith in the Mental Health System in any event. Every profession has "The Good, The Bad, The Ugly" and the just plain incompetent. For what ever reason (and this is simply my own observation) this field seems to attract some really, really dangerous "practitioners." That door to the office closes and what happens in the next 50/60 min. can absolutely be a nightmare of invalidation, re-traumatization, "imperatives" from a "professional" who hasn't made any effort to get their own head-set on straight before they start f'n with someone else's. Yes, there are very, very competent practitioners, but "buyer beware." You start to get that "same old feeling?" May be your T is a MN or Personality Disordered in some way. You've already 'paid' for the abuse at the onus of a MNparent-why pay a "professional" to do the same in the name of "Therapy?" IMO, RUN. NOW. And file a complaint. The Mental Health profession needs to be held accountable the same as ANY profession for the damage they inflict and purging this field of the incompetents will give this profession a far more respectable reputation over-all than they have currently.

  8. Here's why I don't like therapy. I realized it once again when I started thinking, you know, if I had a teenaged son and he was sitting in some room with some douchebag who was telling him how he was "ego-centric", I would not be able to stand it. I'm not going to have my kid sit around in some room being objected to this 'higher-up's' bullshit about telling my son what the hell he's thinking and "who he really is". I would yank him right on out of there.
    Therapy follows the exact same dynamics of a witchhunt. Doctor says, "Oh, I can get that evil out of you." Your crazyass parents offer you up, say "Yes, yes, of course! Go right on ahead!"
    The other thing about therapy is that it's alllll about the patient. The patient does everything. The patient pays the damn doctor a hundred bucks an hour, the patient drives to the doctor's office on an hour that is convenient for them, the patient gives of himself to the doctor, and the doctor gives nothing back. The patient opens up his soul, the patient takes things out of his head and lays them all out on the table for the 'doctor' to examine, and things that really the doctor HAS NO DAMN RIGHT TO in the first place. The doctor FEEDS on the patient and demands more and more.
    I've heard of doctors psychoanalyzing the patient to death, telling 'em, "Oh, it's 'cause your mother abused you that you think this and can't believe this about yourself, bler bler bler." Why doesn't the doctor ever wake up and say, "You know what? It's because people like me and others have told you you're unhealthy that you keep coming here. No, you're healthy. You don't need me. Go be free!" The doctor feeds off the very thing he supposedly sees other people doing to you, the very thing that he can so 'keenly' observe other people doing, he is doing the exact same thing. Why doesn't he wake up?

    Friends can make the same mistakes as doctors. BUT the doctor will never apologize, will never change, and will never forgive. Friends can come pick YOU up when you need a ride, friends can come over when YOU need them, the doctor, by very title of his job, has the excuse to abuse you and be a shitty friend. A friend can do all these things but a doctor is "professionally bound" not to. That is their very profession.

  9. I’m of the mind that the only thing the so-called mental health profession should be allowed to do is educate victims and inform the public about these predators. Under no circumstances should they be entitled to prod, poke, analyze, and label the victim. They should educate and empower the victim: explain to the victim that they have been violated by a PD and this is how they operate: projection, brain washing, pathological lying, delusions, manipulation, mind control, gaslighting, bullying, slander, character assination – mental and emotional TERRORISM/CRIMES. Then the effects of their crimes should be explained: fight or flight mode, damage to the sympathetic nervous system, cognitive dissonance, Stockholm syndrome, dissociating, chronic fatigue etc. etc. And THAT’S IT. Then it should be up to the victim to decide how they want to repair the physiological, mental and emotional damage caused by the perpetrator. You can’t heal psychological and emotional violations with MORE intrusions.

    Abusers ARE the mental health industries bread and butter. What you won’t hear out of the therapist’s hole is… “You’ve suffered severe mental and emotional attacks. You’ve been injured psychologically and physiologically… There is nothing wrong with YOU as a person.” I wonder if trauma specialists label victims of rape as disordered? I wonder if doctors tell depressed patients who got hit by a bus and are left with a disfigurement that they’re sad because momma didn’t love them enough??? I see dangerous exposure to evil as no different than dangerous exposure to toxic chemicals, being in a car crash, or living through a war.

    The PD among us should be viewed by society as a major health concern. They cause trauma, anxiety, addictions, depression, suicide and chronic illness to name a few. But, they also keep the so-called mental health industry and pharmaceutical companies in business… so where the hell is the incentive to educate the public, OR the victim. The victim is their cash cow NOT the abuser. The abuser won’t set foot in a therapist’s office. Besides, there’s no help for them because they cannot be treated and all those quacks know it. So where does the money lie? What’s really going on here?

    The so-called mental health industry is colluding with the abusers.

    I see the involvement of mental health professionals in courts of law as utterly ridiculous, unless they're supporting the EFFECTS the CRIMES have on the victim ($$$ Compensation for damage caused). Otherwise, who the hell needs them? The only way someone is put on trial and convicted for their crimes is through hard EVIDENCE – something the mental health profession sorely lacks. Sure, some quack can have a few sessions with a criminal and take the stand and give the diagnosis of psychopath, but so what? The only reason they know they’re a psychopath is because of documented EVIDENCE that prove the perp’s actions and behavioral patterns. In other words, crimes ALREADY committed.

    The “diagnosis” is insignificant. Beside, these shrinks wouldn’t be able to figure it out on their own without actual undisputed evidence. The psychopaths who are studied are the ones who are ALREADY incarcerated or awaiting trial. So do ya think these idiots would be able to label some little old granny who “appears” the model mother and grandmother as evil? The proof that the victim presents to these so-called mental health professionals is regarded as hearsay. It’s dismissed. Yet, they’re quick to analyze, diagnose and label an innocent victim without any evidence what so ever. I would really like to know how they prove that anything in the DSMV actually exists. Why did shyness - which is just someone's nature - suddenly become "social anxiety disorder"?? Because Paxil was coming down the pike and they needed to sell, sell, sell!

    The natural EFFECTS of dangerous people and threatening circumstances are not pathologies they are natural human reactions. Sadly, pathologizing the victim is big business. It’s where the money is.

  10. As for letting one’s children remain around someone who is extremely dangerous even to the ADULT - all in the name of “family”??? Well, it just goes to show that blood is thicker than water. And some blood is poisoned beyond logic.

    On lives the family pathology… and on, and on, and on.

  11. Oh, and you wanna know what a lifelong malignant narcissist would probably say about all of this? He'd probably say:

    my god u people r completely paranoid.i bet ur all conspiracy theorists as well. just live a little .i do and as a lifelong malignant narcissist i can only say that ur bleeding hearts prove us right every time

  12. HAHAHA! oh god, I can see it now! Fuzzy wind-up dolls in a little shirt and red tie, pull the string and he says:
    my god u people r completely paranoid.i bet ur all conspiracy theorists as well. just live a little .i do and as a lifelong malignant narcissist i can only say that ur bleeding hearts prove us right every time
    For everyone who's ever wanted a malignant narcissist in their life!

  13. Hilarious! Fuzzy wind-up malignant narcissist doll in a little shirt and red tie. Hahaha!

    I wonder if we can get some manufactured just in time for Christmas?

  14. MN dolls for everyone who's ever wanted a malignant narcissist in their life!

    Marketing genius!

  15. Or never had a choice. How easy it is to identify the "child" or adult child as the genesis of the 'problem.' Sadly, many of these adult children are fine just as they are but buy into this stuff because it's "offered" by another authority figure (or some "self-help" book.) And we all know what good boys and girls we are and how we've been trained to accept the (scapegoat figure) authority role without question or saying, "Hey, wait one. Did YOU grow up in THIS crazy? Do you have a clue that all that glitters is NOT gold?"

    You can be sure it's "marketing genius" especially if the 'identified patient' has insurance and especially if there's PRIVATE insurance involved.

    Worse yet, your struggles and reality will appear in some "Professional Journal" or article that will enhance the resume/publications of the said T without your knowledge or consent. When you signed that release your name may not be used but your experience/reality will be leveraged not because it's in YOUR best interests AT ALL. You're a "publish or perish" entity minimally or a great "case study" to add to the "Curriculum Vitae" without your truly informed knowledge or consent.

    IMO, a truly good T whose priority is their client will ASK the client about presenting/writing a professional article etc. and if the client wishes to engage in such. In writing, have the CLIENT read the entire article-and make changes as they see fit-and in concert with the T. Transparency is a necessity IMO in these relationships: Without such, some one's gettin' used and abused/re-traumatized all over again (and it ain't the client.)

    If you're confident in your skills, PARTICIPATE IN YOUR OWN T PRN you have a very fine-tuned reality into you own sense of self, your own 'blind spots' and your own sense of what it means to be human and LIVE in this world.
    Just my take, FWIW.

  16. This comment is in 2 parts because of it's length.

    Or never had a choice. Exactly. It’s all fine and dandy to be spouting off to adults: fight back, defend yourself, flee… But, we as children living under N rule never had that choice. For me anyway, it was just about survival. And isn’t the scapegoat groomed to be the perfect little lab monkey for the “therapeutic” profession? We’re taught from day one that something is inherently wrong with us, and so we go in search of help to get “fixed.” I’m the only one in a family of 5 that ever sought “therapy.” Narcissists think they are Gods so there’s no “fixing” that which is already deemed perfect and above reproach. But we’re HUMAN, and humans are flawed and make mistakes and this is what the N uses to manipulate and brain wash us into thinking we’re not good enough as we are.

    I wasn’t permitted to question the deranged “authority” in my FOO. But I knew what I knew: that they were WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. I grew-up surrounded by frauds and I could easily spot them on the outside. So beyond that sick “system” I questioned everything. I searched for answers for over 20 years and I processed more garbage than the city’s solid waste management facility. You name it; I’ve read it or tried it. But all along the way I questioned it because the same old theme kept on popping-up: It’s your fault. There’s something wrong with you! Wow. Marketing genius is right. Even that little troll Eckhart Toll preaches that, and don’t get me started on the co-dependency magical thinking parade, creepy John Bradshaw, that narcissist Chopra, trauma bonding bull-shit 101, or Al-Anon 12 step rubbish that tells you your “defective” and must make “amends” because of this. Maybe people should do a little research on the creators of these cults before they buy into it hook, line and sinker. I was happy to terminate “therapy” with a counsellor who recommended I read the Bowen Family System. I found a counsellor who was on the ball enough to know that that piece of propaganda was written in the 50’s when woman had no rights. And on went my search for answers.

    I got a tip from a doctor who worked at the same University as Robert Hare about the book “Without Conscience” and read it about 17 years ago when it first hit the book stores. That one book alone helped me more than all the other crap I let in and out of my head. I learned that psychopaths look like the rest of us, and aren’t all axe wielding maniacs.

    FINALLY, I could see that there was something inherently wrong with my abusers – NOT me. That book was the first “protective” measure I was ever offered… before that, it was all about YOUR “defective.”

    So I continued to learn… discovered malignant narcissism, got mad as hell but was happy to know that my “instincts” were right on the money. I only wish the internet was around 20 years ago… would have saved me a lot of grief and a ton of cash.

  17. One thing that ALWAYS disturbed me about these books written by “therapists” was the case study chapters on the victims. I usually would skip those parts. Even “The Sociopath Next Door” has case studies and I can’t bear to read them. It angers me that these so-called doctors are publishing books filled entirely with material garnered through information confided to them by the vulnerable – “the designated patient”.

    These “therapists” are getting rich, and in some cases famous from the “study” of victims. And, again the victim is treated as a lab monkey. Talk about a profession that turns innocent human being into “specimens” for study. Talk about the “doctors” placing themselves as a higher authority than us mere mortals, AND exploiting that authority. It really sickens me to no end.

    It’s an inhumane practice. And it’s a horrifying thought that whatever some "mental health professional" dreams up that YOU are, is put into the “system.” False diagnosis, labels and one's so-called "case study" can follow a person for their lifetime. And in most cases, the "identified patient" is oblivious of what has been "recorded" about them.

    Hmmm. I wonder what they’re writing on their little pad? I once asked a quack, “What are you writing down?” He didn’t answer me. I asked again. He didn’t answer me. Hmmm. Talk about an imbalance of power. But I guess he expected me to know my place: the lab monkey has no right to question the mad scientist.

    Bust the bad ones out, file complaints, go online, and warn others. Or, just stay the hell away from a predatory practice that will abuse and exploit you EXACTLY like a narcissist.

  18. Oh yeah, been there. I went to counseling starting in college at the campus 'health center' cause, "Gosh darn it, now I have social anxiety disorder!" Read a giantass book called "The Anxiety Workbook" the size of my head. Cognitive behavioral therapy anyone? Then I went to "group" where I met a bunch of other lame students like me and we sat in a circle and forced conversation out of our asses while two therapists sat and 'observed' us. Met a bunch of crazies along the way, therapists and patients alike buy into this shit with the biggest shit-eating grins.
    Then I started getting these panic attacks so I was like, "Damn, I guess I need to start going to the therapist." I went there and basically told him what happened and he was like, "Yeah, it can be pretty freaky, huh?" I was like, "No shit, Sherlock." I told him some stuff about my big crazy psychotic bitch best friend in high school and I was like, "I felt hurt," and he was like, "So how did that make you feel?" like he was expecting more. The fuck? This isn't rocket science here. She was a psycho bitch. Thus, I hated her. What more is there to say? Then he seemed upset that I wasn't all pleasant and normal just like he was. I swear, these guys are all crazy.

    As for my anxiety, I read this little book once called "Everything Might Go Horribly Terribly Wrong." It basically said it's not your fault. I thought, all right, if that's what you say you're saying, shucks, I'll believe you. I took it to heart, read it once, and said, "All right. Let's do it." And now I'm here.

    I've always been a fan of the patient, the underdog, the person going through this bullshit. There's a reason why I was infatuated with "crazy" people when I was fifteen, people who went to therapy or were forced into therapy, people who had eating disorders, people who cut themselves, or depressed people, just people who were unhappy in an unhappy as hell situation. These are my favorite people. These are my heroes whom I've always cheered for. These are the people I believe in the most and that I can relate to. I have always loved the patients! They are my favorite people.

  19. Lisa, your comment made me think of my favourite poem. I have it framed and it sits above my desk.

    “This is what you shall do; Love the earth and sun and the animals, despise riches, give alms to every one that asks, stand up for the stupid and crazy, devote your income and labor to others, hate tyrants, argue not concerning God, have patience and indulgence toward the people, take off your hat to nothing known or unknown or to any man or number of men, go freely with powerful uneducated persons and with the young and with the mothers of families, read these leaves in the open air every season of every year of your life, re-examine all you have been told at school or church or in any book, dismiss whatever insults your own soul, and your very flesh shall be a great poem and have the richest fluency not only in its words but in the silent lines of its lips and face and between the lashes of your eyes and in every motion and joint of your body.”
    ― Walt Whitman

  20. I was almost frightened to come back here after having admitted I'm professionally "one of THEM." (Retired now.) But yes, it IS an "industry" that does a fine "intersect" with the pharma companies. Just take a look at the genisis of the DSM and the narcs involved there and the current "Working Groups" who are gonna tell US, normal human beings what's "wrong" or the etiology of our "problem(s)." Then research ALL THEIR TIES to the PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES. Pretty scary when you see every last one holds majority shares, sits on the Board, has invested in drugs that will do major screw jobs to your neurotransmitters and of course, in the US we have the FDA (or as I call them the "Foolish Drug Administration.") All those "clinical trials" sponsored by the pharmaceutical companies because the FDA has no $$ to run their own? Do ya think the 'outcomes' are biased in any way?
    Yes, it IS an "Industry." YES, Ts are so poorly trained by and large it's frightening. Let's look at Exhibit A: Woody Allen....who goes on to pontificate on some TV talk show, "My analyst says...(blaa/blaa/blaa)" while he's screwing his adopted daughter. Hey, thanks Woody, apparently you got one over your adopted daughter and your therapist didn't report your shit?
    Truly, I'm ashamed of the mess called "Mental Health." I've spent my life working primarily with Combat Vets. Yes, their neurotransmitters and cerebral structures have been changed/altered as a result of their exposure to the trauma of war. We also have suffered through our own kind of "war." But give me THESE men and women any day. They own their stuff.....these pds? Ain't gonna happen folks. Not in this lifetime and don't look to the Mental Health system or Practitioner to "get it" because the old, traditionally trained still have their heads up Freud's ass, and the rest have less formal training or "mandated" involvement in their own therapy than the average dog training program you see advertised on TV.
    And I'm not considered "radical" personally or professionally. Just your T that was required by my program into my own T as a REQUIREMENT. This doesn't seem to happen any more. Now they do "Internships" and shadow some MSW on their "rounds." They learn the names of drugs, the names of their clients, close the door and watch the hell out. PDs are barely touched upon nor are they likely to show up in T unless mandated or through the back door of depression/anxiety. "Woe is ME" cries the pd. Until you have them sign releases for previous treatment. I kid you not-I received records from one of these from the ER and read a colleague psychiatrists's notes and have NEVER seen such honesty from another professional when they dictated, "Then the client began to bewail their fate." Yep. EXACTLY.
    "Buyer Beware." Again.

  21. Anonymous,
    I didn't pick-up that you were a T. Except this confused me:

    IMO, a truly good T whose priority is their client will ASK the client about presenting/writing a professional article etc. and if the client wishes to engage in such. In writing, have the CLIENT read the entire article-and make changes as they see fit-and in concert with the T. Transparency is a necessity IMO in these relationships: Without such, some one's gettin' used and abused/re-traumatized all over again (and it ain't the client.)

    I was going to ask you if you had made a typo re: (and it ain't the client.)? I thought you might have meant "and it ain't the therapist."

    Still a little confused. You've had to "treat" the untreatable - PDs? And, you were required to go through therapy? I'm getting the sense that as an ACON this was not a good thing because of the traditionally trained still having their heads up Freud's ass.

    I saw a Freudian psychoanalyst VERY briefly (he was a MN) and it was one of the most destructive experience I've endured as a person - particularly as an ACON. Turned me anti-psychiatry over night.

    I remember when that story broke about Woody Allen and his underage adopted daughter. To be sure, there's a hell of a lot of sycophants in the therapeutic profession who "treat" the rich and famous and protect their golden goose above all else. Morality doesn't enter the picture. Woody paid someone to tell him that what he was doing wasn't wrong. Well. If the therapist says it's okay then I guess it is. He probably got some "Freudian" justification for his vile behaviour. Poor Mia.

    It's really interesting to hear the views of someone like yourself who has worked on the inside of the mental health system. Particularly because as an ACON you could spot an N a mile away and the "industry" doesn't get it, and aren't likely to get it anytime soon.

    The question is: why are they all wearing blinders when it comes to NPD?

    Scary stuff. Buyer beware indeed.

  22. Thanks, it WAS a typo.

    Look, I'm just here as an ACON whose Professional world happened to intersect with this post. I am no more qualified than you or any poster to address the issues you've raised. I didn't end up in this world of T because of my experience as an ACON. I ended up there because of my interest in Traumatology as Vietnam was my generation. Much of what we know today regarding exposure to trauma is thanks to the willingness of Holocaust Survivors and Vietnam Vets to participate in research. This field has grown exponentially in the last 40+ yrs. because of these 2 Survivor Groups. I'm not a pro on PDs and I don't pretend to be. The willingness of you and other posters to share has informed me in more ways than I can tell you and thanks to all who participate. I don't care if you're a "tinker, tailor" soldier or shrink. You all add to the discussion. Again, I'm just like you, an ACON so please take my perspective with a grain of salt or FWIW.

    Why do they (shrinks) wear blinders? Great question and multi-faceted in response IMO. In part, it's the over-loaded Criminal Justice System. We'd rather believe (and hope to hell it will cost less $$) to "treat the offender" than recognize there are the treatable and the untreatable. Further, the likelihood of an N or any Cluster B coming to the attention of the shrinks is about as cold as the proverbial snowball. Despite the Ns Criminal Behavior or any other Cluster B being prosecuted there is the collusion adult children play here as well and NO, that is not in ANY way an indictment of the adult kids AT ALL. Its just life for an ACON and the concept that what has been done to them from childhood is beyond belief prosecutorial minimally or morally/ethically beyond "acceptable" doesn't register. Because IMO, that's your life. It doesn't register for a whole bunch of reasons.
    The "blinders" end up being a form of collusion with the ACON. Please be very aware, I am NOT "blaming" the adult kids AT ALL. Their "normal" is what they know, it's their history and often they feel there is no hope for them into the indefinite future. Clearly, they believe the "problem" is THEM.
    What saddens me beyond belief is when they show up with anxiety/depression, PTSD or c-PTSD (which is not yet recognized by the DSM.) And they feel they are flawed. In every way. If only they "tried harder" or were a "better" adult son or daughter everything would be "OK." If they sacrificed their soul, their partners, their kids it will be fine because somehow they're "lacking." The training "at the foot" or onus of an Nparent(s) starts in the pre-verbal stage.
    Without the N (or Pd individual) signing releases so you can speak with family members etc. you're stuck with self-reporting. And we KNOW how reliable "reporters" they are. Please be advised this is NOT an issue of different perspectives, but rather a "pervasive pattern of interaction" and without family members to step forward, you may buy this for a few sessions. If they're not willing to sign releases for their adult kids there's a huge red flag, IMO.
    I've a bunch more to share about this but it's not my blog and I'm turning into a hog. It just really breaks my heart to see the adult kids struggle, deal with all kinds of guilt etc. never mind their own symptoms. Trauma is trauma and we grew up in war zones that were not of our making, not in any way under our control. Living with the results creates its own kind of hell for so many. Trauma alters structures in the brain, neurotransmitters and the Endocrine System in a variety of ways that are both fundamental and enduring.
    And that's been obvious for years.

  23. PS: I remember your blog about the Freudian idiot-saying something like you were a piece of shit. I do hope you didn't pay for THAT session and kicked that incompetent N to the curb.

    This is EXACTLY about what I mean when I say the door closes and the T gets to abuse the living shit out of another hurting human being who's looking for assistance, who is truly believing the problem is them and minimally a bit fragile. We ALL have periods like this in our lives, regardless of how "charmed" life may have been-or not. Minimally, you as a client deserve respect, some sense that you're heard and a few sessions to see if you can work well with that particular T. The "fit" between T and client is a positive result that emanates from trust: The respect is a NECESSITY.

  24. Anon, I'm a little confused why you are acting defensive. I didn't know you were a T and I liked all of your comments, especially the middle one. I thought Lisette's response to you was nothing but straightforward and sweet and she had some legitimate questions about what you said unclearly so I don't know what you are talking about when you say "take with a grain of salt." We are merely taking you on your word! She even said she found your pov interesting so I don't get your defensiveness about being a T. You can't treat the untreatable. Therapy is rarely the answer to anything. I don't remember anyone here attacking or criticizing you. I couldn't care less if you're a T or not. To me, we were just pointing out some really obvious things and the Ts are to blame for the damages they cause. If we are such poor self-doubting ACONs, why do you come here acting like we are wolves about to eat you up? We pointed out the obvious black and white about our abusers and you come in here acting like we're scary monsters for it when we are the victims. ACONs are NOT colluding with the therapists. You cannot collude in what you don't know. You cannot call it colluding when someone is taking advantage. You cannot say that someone is willingly taking part in their own abuse, even if you want to use all your psychology bending-over-backwards terms to claim that "their minds have been warped so badly they hurt themselves, cluck, cluck." That is retraumatizing/dis-empowering/disrespecting/and dismissing the victim. You cannot say that. Every single person is capable.
    I'm still confused a bit about what you say as I guess your own history as a T makes you a little defensive in this case. But like I said, I don't care.

    I do like your comments, anon.

  25. Anonymous,
    Thanks for your comments. I welcome and appreciate them. I'm grateful that people take the time to write, and are willing to share and add to the discussion. The idea that someone might be “hogging” doesn’t occur to me… especially since I tend to “participate” a lot in the comment section, and this here comment is a whopping three- parter.

    I don’t view what you have to say as being on the defense per say, but I can understand that it’s a double edged sword being an ACON whose professional background happens to intersect with this blog post and others on the issue of therapy. And, as the blog writer, my POV is not at all sympathetic to the mental health field… And, from what I see in your comments, you don’t appear to be all that sympathetic to the field either. In any case, the comments can be a valuable resource for many of us, so I hope they keep on coming.

    It blows my mind that despite all the research, PTSD and Complex- PTSD isn’t yet recognized by the DSM, AND that NPD is/has been removed?! What gives? I guess stuff like obsessive text messaging disorder is much more “trendy”. I wonder if the adult children who survived growing-up in God’s concentration camp will ever be given their due. We lived through a war all right, and the enemies were those who were supposed to love and protect us.

    We're all ACONs here, and for me as an ACON my experience with "therapists" has not been good. Lousy luck? Maybe. In any case, I found therapy at worst destructive and at the very least frustrating. I found by talking about my N family, and naming a problem, I quickly became "the problem." Please don't shoot the messenger. But that's exactly what happened to me. I could say my N parents/sibling did this, this, and that. And the therapist's position was hmmm. Well. YOU must be this, this, and that to have LET it happen. Yep. Blame the victim all over again. My HUMANITY – love, goodwill (HUMAN virtues) is what my abusers used to exploit me. Narcissists view natural human vulnerability as a FLAW, and this is EXACTLY what I discovered in the “therapeutic” profession and “self-help” industry – they too view vulnerability as a flaw to exploit.

    Here's a quote by Kathy Krajco that sums up my experience:

    “You must take responsibility for the hurt done to you. Narcissistic abuse hurt you only because you are weak and let it hurt you. You must pump up your self-esteem (which is telling the victim to do exactly what a narcissist does) and just "blow off" abuse and all other unhappy things so that you stop being guilty of ever feeling any negative emotion about anything. In other words, you must act like it didn't happen. Which is exactly what the narcissist tries to make you do.”

    Nope. I wasn’t buying what they were selling.

    As for Doctor Full-O-CRAP... the vile MN shrink that I mentioned on another blog post... Well. I wouldn’t call him incompetent. I’ve been to incompetent therapists. They may be a waste of time. They may blame the victim and justify the abuser’s behaviour and make excuses for them, but that’s abuse through sheer ignorance, and sometimes indifference. Yes, that too is a form of narcissistic abuse BUT, they’re not DELIBERATELY trying to cause harm. I WOULD call that sicko, and another MN psychologist that I had the misfortune to encounter, very disturbed, destructive, and dangerous PREDATORS.

  26. So yes, in less than 2 months I bee-lined it out of Dr. Frankenstein’s office and told my doctor what happened. I also got a copy of the letter he had written to my family doctor about me and my "case." I was ASTOUNDED. It was a work of fiction. It was written to her (after my first initial session) and it said he wanted to see me a MINIMUM 3 times a week for 5 years!! Ka-ching! And throughout the letter, if you read between the lines, you could see how he was protecting himself from “potential” accusations of abuse - all in the name of therapy. I had to point this out to my doctor, she was too dim to see it, yet she agreed wholeheartedly when she was made AWARE of it. Oh, and the last line of the letter, he asked her to please send him more patients. HA! Please send me more MONEY!

    My family doctor just pulled his name off a list of quacks taking patients (there's a reason why he was available). She didn't know anything about him. Here in Canada, psychiatrists are considered real 'doctors' and as such are covered on our medical services plan. A monthly fee pretty much covers everything. You can pay $60 a month and see a shrink, get knee surgery, a hip replacement etc. etc. all for the $60 blanketed monthly fee. So I saw a couple of shrinks because it was "covered" and let me tell you, if quacks were privatized, most of them would be out of business. If I was paying money out of my pocket for those sessions, I wouldn't have lasted more than one or two... because quite frankly, I found them creepy. That's where the danger lies in the system - medical insurance. The psychiatrist bills the province. Needless to say, there's a ton of corruption. Once they have someone's MSP # they can continue to bill the government for so-called therapy sessions for months, and years after the patient is long gone. It's not regulated at all. So the psychiatrist looks into the "patient's" eyeballs and sees dollar bill signs. Ka-ching! It still infuriates me that tax payers are footing the bill for these charlatans. Meanwhile ophthalmologists are not covered on our plan.

    I was going to file a complaint, but soon realized that these so-called boards only protect their own. When I called the number that we “patients” are supposed to call for help, and asked if this sicko had any complaints lodged against him, the person at the other end paused, and said, “We can’t disclose that.” Anyhow, that was many years ago. But I learned that this creep likes to put ALL his "patients" on a 5 year plan. Hmmm. Mortgage payment anyone? And hell ya, now he’s had complaints, but of course he’s still practicing, harming people and pilfering off the system.

    Anyway, I’ve seen the dark side of the “therapeutic” profession and I’ve barely touched on it in this blog or the comments (talk about being a hog, I could go on for pages). I hit the mother lode with Dr. Evil Full-O-Crap and another MN psychologist – but I’m saving all the gory details as ammo for another venue. I’m NOT “grateful” that these sickos (who I turned to for help) came into my life. But, ramming into these MN predators, and the other “incompetents” in the so-called mental health profession, was an experience that was not lost on me. Sadly, what I learned is my experience is not at all unusual or uncommon.

    I also learned that putting unearned trust into a complete stranger, who claims to be a so-called “authority” over ME and MY MIND, just isn’t my bag. Further, I learned to protect and look out for number one – ME. And that’s the opposite of what the narcissists would have me believe.

  27. Finally…. Anonymous, you mentioned something about releases and interviewing family members. Are you just referring to an N being “assessed” in the criminal sense, and the need to dig deeper because the therapist can’t rely on their reporting to determine if they are treatable or untreatable (i.e. Incarceration or save the expense)? Or, are you also talking in the general sense? For instance, if the N has been ushered in the back door for anxiety and depression and is crying a river and blaming everyone that he or she has harmed for abandoning them?

    Just curious as to what role a family member’s testimony might play in the diagnosis of a “treatable” or “non-treatable” client/patient. Aren't all Ns untreatable?

    I find this kind of information interesting and hope to hear your thoughts.

  28. In my opinion, they're (Ns) ALL "untreatable." Again, in their world view it's everyone else who has the "problem!"

    My apologies Lisa if I came across as defensive-truly, that was not my intent. Angry that Adult kids (ACONS) seek help and are treated as if their issues have their genesis in some kind of neurosis and indigenous rather than external experiences over years at the onus of a PDparent(s.)

    And experiences such as Lisette's are infuriating to me. There's no excuse for this crap except poorly trained therapists and Programs who accept people simply because they applied, had certain scores "acceptable" to that particular Program and have the $$$ to pay for it. There is a plethora of research going back years regarding what "constitutes an effective therapist" and no surprise they are contingent on the PERSONAL qualities of the individual....and NO program can inculcate these qualities.

  29. Why pay money for a therapist when all a person really needs are good friends with good heads on their shoulders? Any potentially useful bit of information from the field of psychology is available to anyone with the time and curiosity necessary to look it up. Besides, such information is only supplementary anyway; if the person educated in this stuff has no wisdom to begin with the information is worthless at best.

  30. Amen sister! Standing up, finally. after being systematically abused isn't easy, but it is imperative for survival, and, dignity. That said, don't expect the punches to stop when we're dealing with the MN ... they retaliate in really creepy, underhanded, malicious ways. Still, though, you have to take that chance, cos, they're Hell bent on destroying you either way, and if you get one big hit in, it stuns them long enough to make a clean get away. Thanks for this post.

  31. I am so overwhelmed by these wise posts that amplify my own principles, logic and deepest rage or love for humanity. Far too many years I've been fighting pure malice where words just don't speak to the actual reality of us ACONS. At times I've fled the country, city, my "homes" in crisis and not been hardly able to speak for months at a time. The facts are despicable incomprehensible and anyone agreeing won't move a muscle to help in any way because the most powerful person is afraid of retaliation. So I'm naturally anxious sad which is then implied by others as a defect or disease. Why are people still threatening me for being sad or fearful when they (lawyers, doctors, clergy) declare that my family or others are behaving in unnatural dangerous ways. I HATE having to seek help in an office setting for what amounts to criminal behavior taking place in the most private aspects of my life. Any utterance of truth of what MN's are doing is frightening due to being constantly threatened for what is a less than polished need to survive. It's easy for therapists or whomever to say leave again or just pretend to be the weirdo person the MN's want.
    How could I ever believe that I would come upon this blog speaking up, in take no prisoner graphic accurate detail, for those of us in need of mercy. Wow hardly begins...