Tuesday, 13 December 2011

The Story of Anonymous - 2

This is the second part of Anonymous’ story. She was introduced in the last blog post HERE.  Anon survived a traumatic childhood at the hands of a ruthless malignant narcissist mother who savagely abused her physically, emotionally and psychologically and cruelly sacrificed to her to a convicted sex offender – Anon’s Stepfather.

Anonymous said…
Fast forward to my adulthood.
I'm a married mother of two, mid 30s, living in pure hell and I don't know what to do anymore.  I'm being stalked and harassed by my PD mother...I'm at the end of my rope because I just don't see this ending any time soon.
My journey into discovery of my mother's personality disorder began around November of last year.  I began searching for something, anything to make sense out of my crazy life and what I initially stumbled upon was BPD, so I went to a PD specialist to confirm...He said that my mother sounded like a "malignant borderline with severe AsPD traits."  The malignant part is accurate for sure, but I'm not so sure about the borderline.  After reading through almost every post that you have written, I must say that she seems far more NPD.
I had what seemed like a decent relationship with my mother, so I (STUPIDLY) invited her to work for me as a live-in nanny. Her relationship with my kids was good, they seemed happy, so I ignored my gut instinct that something just wasn't right.  I started finding out that my mother was keeping secrets from me about my kids...If one of them got in trouble, she'd hide it from me, protect them from the consequences.  It was kind of like - I protected you, now you *owe* me.  This dysfunctional stuff that she was doing created some dysfunctional bond between her and my kids...Slowly their views of me started changing...My mother was the caretaker/protector while I was the enemy; the one who would hold them accountable for their behavior. 
My husband had enough of my mother's behavior (which included a lot of other annoying/negative things) and forced me to ask her to move out.  She did, while I was at work, talking her clothes and my kids (she left a letter claiming to be running for her life and also claiming that I and my husband neglected and abused the kids). I didn't see them for months and the best detectives couldn't find her.  I finally reached her via email right as she was running out of money so she was willing to cooperate a little bit. In a nutshell, she demanded ransom in exchange for returning my kids to me.  You may think that I'm stupid, but I did it.  I was so desperate to get my kids back that I would have done anything; besides that, paying ransom was faster than going the legal route, which wasn't going anywhere fast because they couldn't find her.

I have custody of my kids now and she has visitation...She uses her visits to try to turn my kids against me.  If we argue, she tells her side of the story to my kids.  When I tell her that I don't appreciate her sharing adult problems with my children, she'll cop a major attitude and possibly fly into a mini raging session. Her current hobby is to complain to my youngest child that she can't pay her bills and that she may be homeless soon...When my baby comes home from her visits, she's so upset.  She knows that I'm financially stable and wants to know why I can't help her grandma.  I fear that my refusal to do so is driving a wedge between myself and my kids.  In addition, she pumps my kids for information about what I'm doing, so I have no privacy.
PDmother frequently drives by my house and has informed me that she's going to continue to live in my neighborhood no matter what. She also said that if I moved anywhere, she would follow me. I feel like a caged animal with no chance of escape. I also have a horrible case of PTSD along with a dissociative disorder which can't effectively be treated because of regular dealings with my mother.
I have a hard time sharing my story because very few people understand where I'm coming from.  Even within the PD support group that I belong to, people just don't seem to get the level of malevolence that my mother exhibits
Even though I did what I did long before having any knowledge of PDs, there are still so many people who are aware and continue to allow their children to have relationships with their disordered parents because "That's their grandma/grandpa".  It's not only not worth it, it's downright dangerous.


  1. This is a horrible situation for Anon... I hope that she can find a way to get her monster of a mother out of their lives. Before I knew how bad nmom really was, I wanted her to have a relationship with her grandchildren. I'm glad I got out before it was to late. These people are the great dividers and she had already successfully done this to me. But still being nc, she has still tryed to get to the grandkids. Usually it is just on the birthday. She thinks she is so smart and cunning. So far, I've out smarted her. I'm a fighter and when it comes to my children, she will loose...

  2. If nothing else, go to the police, get an Order of Protection, go No Contact with mommy dearest and if she is to have any kind of visitation- demand it be court ordered-> supervised. Contact local law enforcement about your laws involving stalkers and do what you can to drive her away. I hope the best for you and your children. :)

  3. Anonymous #1 - I'm so glad that you got out before it was too late! Kids are the perfect motivation to get away from these people. I hope that your mother continues to lose every single time when it comes you and your kids.

    The story above was written before I was totally out of the situation - I'm NC now and am still in shock at how brainwashed I actually was. I am fighting tooth and nail to keep my kids safe.

    Anonymous #2 - The stalking laws in my state are horrible. Anyone can get a temporary order of protection here, but it's practically unheard of to get a more long-term order. The main problem that I'm having is that my MN mother is actually smart - she does just enough to harass me, but not enough for the police to become involved. I'd be better off if she was low-functioning and unstable.

    Supervised visitation is not an option for me - I do not want my kids anywhere near this evil witch. If visitation, even if it's supervised, was ever ordered, I'd fight it with the most powerful attorneys in the state. If everything fails and I lose, I will be forced to move out of the country...Nothing that evil will ever come near my kids again.

  4. Anon, I'm so glad that you and your kids are away from the evil witch.

    Anon #1

  5. I started finding out that my mother was keeping secrets from me about my kids...If one of them got in trouble, she'd hide it from me, protect them from the consequences. It was kind of like - I protected you, now you *owe* me.

    OMG! ....That is the tactic my mother used on me with my father. She intercepted notes from school or poor grade notices and in return I had to lie for her if he asked what she had been up to while he was at work.

  6. q1605, I guess they are all the same in a way. It really sucks that you were put in that position...If you don't mind, is there any way that you could explain how this made you feel at the time? Has this affected you as an adult? I think that your experience would help me better understand the ramifications of this type of manipulation from the perspective of my children.

    Anon #1 - Thank you :)

  7. To anon. Her coaching me on what to say was such a daily occurrence it had a topical effect. Like my grand father's smokers breath, whiskered face in mine while he hugged me. Unpleasant, but it passed soon enough. I just wanted to keep the peace. They fought enough as it was. The fear of starting WWIII was so over powering I did what it took to keep it from happening.

    I had seen my older sister try and reason with my father. In the end my mother could lie better than she could tell the truth.
    There was a time we had all been living with my grandmother because of some legal troubles of my mother. After he got back on his feet he moved out. Took my mother with him and left us there. My sister was 17 and was good with it. I was 10 and was too stupid to realize I was being blown off and ended up tagging along.
    Point is that he always believed her BS and anyone telling him the truth about her ended up persona non grata.
    It hasn't had a real effect on my adult way of thinking. I don't have trust issues with women. My grandmother was such a stand up chick that her normalcy gave me a template to pattern at least some healthy thinking.
    Without going into detail my mother is a full blown sociopath. She is so over the top that even a child knows she is defective. If it had been more subtle it might have had more impact.
    But her over the topness made it easy to brand her the bat shit loon that she is and not hang up on minutiae.
    Thanks for asking.

  8. Whatever happened to the word "No" or a nice door to the face? What the hell is her leverage over you that you feel like this is some sort of conundrum? Where is your outrage -- your righteous wroth at the unmitigated GAUL that this decrepit ghoul would *dare* presume access to YOUR CHILDREN?

    Its YOUR home and YOUR children whom YOU have custody over and responsibly for. The woman is nothing but a deluded little hag with no real push or pull in the world. You even said yourself that her life is a financial wreck. She is the weak and vulnerable party in the equation yet you're still acting like her frightened helpless child. See your worth, feel the love you have for your children, and never let yourself forget what a decrepit, loathsome creature your Nmother is next to the lives of you and your loved ones. Shes is just exploiting the temerity she worked so hard to condition into you. The only threat she poses to you and yours is what your fear allows.

    Make it abundantly clear to her that she GTFO of your life or you will utterly destroy her and, most importantly, you must have the barely restrained will to make good on that threat. You must *feel* the sheer indignant rage and contempt emanating from your very being -- so palpable and tangible that even she senses your determination and resolve. I know it must be there; after all, you've endured unspeakable outrages at her hand from the cradle to adult life. The fear, the anxiety, the insecurity, the self-loathing she worked to instill in you from an early age are hers by right. Find the hate and rage shes sown in you and, with ruthless presence of mind, let her reap the harvest. The common denominator between all creatures like her is that they are bullies; they only strike when they sense vulnerability -- when they believe they are facing easy prey. They are dastardly cowards to a one and it is only deluded hubris that allows them to even operate in our midst. Don't buy into the most fundamental lie shes imposed upon you from day one: that you are weak and she is strong. Please, no more of this "Scary dangerous mommy dearest is stalking my children -- whatever shall I do?" Realize and assert your power. Break your foot off in her ass, FFS.

  9. These MNs REFUSE to take "NO" for an answer. In fact, my high-functioning MN'mother' engaged in an 18 yr. campaign of sliming, maligning, ambushing, stalking, stalking by proxy (PIs), destroyed my first career post college (which I had been recruited to prior to graduation through the Agency's Outstanding Scholar Program) although I had terminated the relationship with her some years prior. She engaged in despicable behavior from Day 1 of NC for the next 18 yrs. until her physical death.
    Like anon's situation, it's very, very difficult to successfully utilize Law Enforcement/Courts when the perp is your "MOOOOTTTHHHEEERRR" as the bitch announced every time she engaged in her disgusting behavior. Honestly, sometimes getting Law Enforcement involved is NOT in your best interests when you're dealing with a MNparent. I have no doubt my MN would have LOVED the court room drama, secure in the knowledge her "label" and consummate acting abilities would ensure no one would take my very realistic fears, experiences etc. seriously. MN would have been positively orgasmic at the knowledge she had my attention, had caused me additional expense and upset not to mention the sadistic pleasure she would have enjoyed knowing she was STILL a part of my life in any way and her unrelenting torment had succeeded in turning my life upside down and inside out.
    During those 18 yrs. I maintained CONSISTENT SILENCE to each and every provocation. Yes, she had my phone tapped and no doubt heard my distress at different times due to her BS; however, once I confirmed the tap I no longer discussed anything of any significance on the phone.
    "NO" is not a word in their vocabulary. They don't give a flying f about their adult kids other than to pull out all the stops in their attempts to destroy "the one that got away" in every possible manner. And when they have the financial resources nothing-and I do mean NOTHING is beyond their power to purchase. Including homicide.
    Believe it.

  10. Anonymous,
    I don't know you personally nor do I know anything about your life beyond what little you've posted but I'm going to venture a guess that your subhuman excuse of a "mom" already had you primed and conditioned to be easy prey. For almost 2 decades you "maintained CONSISTENT SILENCE" as your mother maligned and slandered you? She even went so far as to BUG YOUR PHONE (seriously, WTF???) and your response was to "no longer discuss anything of any significance on the phone"? The fact that you were too afraid to try to reach out for help (even from the law) suggests to me that she still had you whipped psychologically.

    Please don't take this as a condemnation but, based upon what you've communicated to me, your response to your mother's bullying was one of fearful passivity. You simply rolled over and took it, or worse, simply fled and hid. I'm sorry to tell you this but your behavior was a bully's wet dream. She was a depraved bitch who was allowed to harass you without any negative repercussions to herself; what the heck else would you expect from her but more bullying?? Excuse the imagery but, in narc-vision, you had your fanny waving in the air with a big flashing bullseye planted on it.

    You say that if you ever took N-mom to court she would have been orgasmic at the knowledge of the drama that would ensue? Well, I'm telling you that your fearful silence gave her far more pleasure than you fighting back by any and means at your disposal. Even assuming that you got the law involved and everyone turned out to be pathetic dupes under the sway of your mom's sappy routines she still could have no power over you beyond what you yielded to her in your own psyche. The simple fact of the matter is that you weren't nearly as tenacious in the defense of your welfare as your evil mother was in her pursuit of your misery. As that line in Yeats’ poem goes:

    "The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity"

    I'm sorry, but you weren't "the one that got away" because she still had you defeated in your own mind despite the geographic distance between you. Trust me; until you truly realize your own worth vermin like your N-mom will continue plague your existence. Without a strong sense of self-respect and fire in your belly even the weakest of these pathetic losers will seem like a horror movie menace; they feed off of psychological vulnerability and fear. The battle begins and ends within you. Once you are centered you’ll find you have the strength to crush these decrepit wretches -- sometimes without even having to lift a finger ;-)

  11. BTW, I noticed that you cite the fact that these vermin are capable of anything -- up to and including homicide. You've allowed yourself to forget that they are themselves vulnerable to anything -- up to and including *being* homicided. They're bad and depraved but they are not invincible gods. Quit playing into their pathetic fantasies, please :P

  12. Sadly it was not a "pathetic fantasy." This WAS her reality as she demonstrated behaviorally repeatedly.
    Clearly I stopped playing into ANY of the crap the day I terminated the relationship. However, dangerous is as dangerous does and yes, she WAS very, very dangerous.
    Actually, I am extremely tenacious; if I wasn't I wouldn't be here today. I'm quite well centered, thank you. And the Risk Analysis performed by a highly regarded agency was very helpful in informing my decisions.
    "Defeated?" Not hardly.
    My self-esteem is quite intact as is my ability to see reality clearly and take what ever steps were necessary to protect myself and my family given the particular circumstances. Do not confuse what you view as "passivity" with informed evaluation and years of experience dealing with this MN.
    No, I most certainly was NOT "afraid to reach out " for assistance from law enforcement. Yes, they were contacted CONSISTENTLY when she violated the law. However, not all cases are prosecuted due to circumstances beyond my control. There's "CSI" and then there's reality.
    Had she been "homicided" it would have been fine with me.

  13. "There's 'CSI' and then there's reality.
    Had she been 'homicided' it would have been fine with me."

    There's a serious problem when the law not only fails to accomplish what its ostensibly there for, but literally ties peoples hands from taking the necessary measures to protect themselves.

    I didn't wanna go this route in my previous post but I'll just come right out and say it: Your mother really just needed to be put down like a dog. Before, when I said that OP-Anon should "destroy" her N-mom I wasn't just speaking figuratively...

  14. Your situation was clearly much different than the situation provided by the Anon in the OP. Just out of curiosity: What exactly was your mother's occupation/station that she was able to have your phone bugged or had the pull to see your 1st career track ended?

  15. There's no doubt in my mind that had Anon #1 (in the blog post) gone NO CONTACT with her evil MN mother, she too would have had to endure years and years of stalking and harassment, and life sabotage at her mother's hands "from a distance."

    The MN is out to get their target be it close-range or long-range, it makes no difference to them. They are unrelenting in their efforts to destroy their children near or far. NOTHING stops them.

    Both these vile MN mothers should have been "literally" destroyed, and put down like rabid dogs.

  16. Exactly.

    They are mortal flesh & blood just like anyone else and the same channels they use to harry and harass others can just as easily be manipulated against them. Do not play nice and do not play "by the rules" unless you are damned sure you've already got the cards stacked against them.

    Again, I cannot emphasize enough that they only attack when they believe they have the advantage, that they can get away with it, that "the coast is clear". If they didn't there would be no possible way for them to survive. In the scenarios presented it seems that the best defense is a good offence. Whats keeping you from being just as sly, just as ruthless in your treatment of them?

    Ask yourself: If the law is so ineffectual in dealing with these individuals when they repeatedly commit BLATANT criminal offenses just what is there in place to protect THEM...?

  17. First off, perpetrators are usually not as vulnerable as a parent with children (who cares about the kids' welfare), they often don't have a career to be destroyed, and they don't really have the self control to be afraid of consequences even when such are certain.

    The perpetrators will be better at illegal activities because they don't care. The targets care about their children, spouses, friends etc., and it is very difficult to carry out illegal activities without risking the welfare of loved ones--difficult to think and plan carefully enough to not get caught.

    Perps don't have that much of a handicap because they don't care if they get caught. If targets are caught, it badly impacts their loved ones, who are then even more vulnerable to the perps attacks.

    These situations call for creative thinking outside the box solutions--outrageous even, without being illegal. Also using recording devices lawfully--many legit ways of doing this--can be very helpful. --quartz

  18. quartz,
    You make a good point: the perps (MNs) usually have nothing to lose. If they have friends, they don't care about them... and we all know how they feel about "family." The people within the MNs pathological space are usually controlled and manipulated by the MN, secretly fear the MN, are in denial, or colluding with the MN. The only thing the MN cares about is how they "appear" to the outside world. The "image" they project to outsiders is what needs to be detroyed. The MN lives in paranoid fear of being exposed for who they are and what they've done. In fact, I would say they devote just as much energy into maintaining their false front as they do to destroying the lives of others. I think one of the best offensive maneuvers is to play on their paranoid fear of exposure. Terroize them, gaslight them, destabilize them and their world of lies. Send anonymous letters, spread the truth... even if the MN manages to defend themselves with more lies, slander and character assassination of their victim, at least the seeds of truth will be planted and this will create doubt in other people's minds about them.

    For example, my MN sister is a hoarder, shut-in, no job, with one friend (a fellow N), a flying monkey, and her MN mother. That's it... yet she is absolutely terrified of what other people might know about her: people she has never met, and will never know. When the crazy bitch found out (over the phone) that a friend of mine was over the day I discovered she was stalking me online there was absolute terror and panic in her voice. She DEMANDED his telephone number. When I asked crazy why she wanted his number she screamed, "Lisette give me his number!!!" I asked her again, "Why do you want his number?" She screamed louder, "LISETTE GIVE ME HIS NUMBER!!!" She didn't even know the guy, but she was sooo scared of what he might know about her. And the deluded bitch thought she would have more influence over MY friend than I would. Her grandiosity is something to behold!

    I watched as the crazy evil bitch swung into action to deploy a post-abuse cover-up... it was truly stunning the lengths she went to, to cover-up her crime... She was TERRIFIED! The demented little shut-in was doing damage control right, left and center. Even though she doesn't leave the house, she was living in absolute dread of what the outside world might find out about her. She has so much to hide!

    All I can say is that she is a f*cking idiot! Now I write a blog about the crazy bitch, and this is only the start. I'm thinking about signing her up for A&E's HOARDERS. She thinks the fact that she has to tunnel her way through newspaper stacks, mounds of garbage, and debris is her little "secret". HA! I think everyone in her building should be warned that her unit poses a fire hazard.

    My point is: MNs are delusional so they think they are invincible and no one can touch them. Well. That's simply not true. I say we do to them what they did to us! And when we do it, we will be revealing the TRUTH. The TRUTH that the MNs live in holy terror of being revealed.

    Everyone has an Achilles heel, including the malignant narcissist.

  19. Final point: MNs need to feel in control at ALL times. They need to control the entire Universe, and everyone and everything in it. They need to control what people think, what people feel, and what people see. And there is nothing more terrifying to an MN than losing an ounce of control; they go completely bananas!

    We must do whatever we can to make them feel like they are losing control. This will drive the MN right over the edge and cause their heads to explode! And we can kick back with a cup of joe and watch and laugh as they are sent into a crazy panic to put all the shattered pieces of their lies back together.

  20. "I'm thinking about signing her up for A&E's HOARDERS."
    HAHAAA!!! Thanks for my first laugh of the day! Pleeeaaaase do it! Then when you're done, start notifying building management, building inspectors, fire department - whoever will have an active interest in knowing that your sister's place is a fire hazard. Think her neighbors would be interested? I'd sure want to know if I was living next door to mounds of garbage! Hmmm...perhaps the health department would be interested too. Organize a campaign of volunteers to send their letters of concern, bombarding building management and local officials. I can think of a few people who would LOVE to help out with this!! LOL

    Anonymous from the blog post

  21. Anonymous,
    Awesome! Hahaha! Great tips! I've been plotting my revenge for quite some time. And you know what they say: revenge is a dish best served cold. When the MN least expects it - BAM! - they're gonna get it.

    I have the HOARDERS application on my favorites list, as well as crazy MN sister's property management contact info. I actually called the community "mental-health team" in her neighbourhood and told them about her mental illness, and hoarding. I asked them to contact her, or show-up at her door and take a peek at her environment. They said they had no authority to enter her place, but that I should advise her building managers of the situation. HA! The fire department, building inspectors, health department and concerned neighbours all going after her would be AWESOME! She definitely has it coming.

    When I discovered that she was stalking me online, in my state of shock, I called her up and left a message about it. I didn't hear back from her for hours, and this is unusual because she's always at home, and on the phone. So, during that time she was scrambling to cover her tracks. Eventually she called me back when she had a "story" figured out and she could brain wash me, and confuse me further. BUT I didn't answer the phone because I was still processing what she had done, and I didn't want to speak to her. So what does she do? She calls-up N father to find out where I live, and phones MY building managers who were MN bullies and tells them I am mentally ill, and that I'm not answering my phone and that she's "concerned." She gets them to knock on my door, and check-in on me. I answer the door and the evil MN managers are smirking and holding a phone saying your sister wants to speak to you. MN sister was absolutely freaking-out because I wouldn't talk to her... She was going insane at the thought of being "discovered" and what I might be doing or saying about her in the meantime. She had SO much at stake. So much so, that she told complete strangers in MY building that I was mentally ill! Of course, they were MN bullies with something also at stake and so much to hide so they spread this lie far and wide in order to undermine my crediblity in my fight to stop them from bullying me and tenants in general. So, all in an effort to cover-up HER crime, that stupid evil MN c*nt concocted outrageous lies about me, and made me even more vulnerable to dangerous people in MY home environment. I couldn't make this stuff up! This is also why she went absolutely berserk when she found out later that I had a friend over the same day I discovered her internet stalking - she thought she was in the clear, and screamed at me for his telephone number. It was actually funny how scared she was. I just kept on repeating in a calm monotone voice, "why do you want his number Karen? Why do you want his number Karen?" She was completely panic stricken!

    This is what I mean by MNs being terrified of exposure and loss of control. They will stop at nothing to cover their tracks, and maintain control of their false image. I asked N father NEVER to give MN sister any information on me, and he did, and look what happened. That demented little shut-in is dangerous, and so is everyone who believes the lies of the stupid vile bitch!

    She's gonna get what's coming to her... Meanwhile, I take great pleasure in knowing that she's quaking in her pathetic little boots.

    This all happened around Christmas 3 years ago... so MERRY XMAS Beeyatch! The truth is FINALLY out there!

  22. I've seen the ragged wide-eyed terror in the eyes of these creatures when its even *hinted* that you're on to them. On one occasion I've seen one *literally* snarling and hissing like a cornered animal.

    The truth is that, whether they can bear to admit it to themselves or not, *they* are the ones who fear *us*. The core of their being is pure unbearable terror and the tangled web of lies that make up their sham psyches are as much to shield their awareness from the horror of their own existence as it is to snare everyone else. They quite literally export their own existential waste onto others in a pathetic attempt to distance themselves from it.

    They are FUNDAMENTALLY WEAK AND VULNERABLE and delusion is the only desperate defense they have. Compounding their weakness further is the fact that lies are inherently fragile things; when delusion collides with reality it is ALWAYS reality that wins out. Any alleged "power" wielded by these creatures is based entirely upon smoke, mirrors and the compliance of others. Behind their facade of invincibility lies a parasitic little worm.

    The real irony is that while their entire lives are consumed with manipulating others, they themselves are laughably easy to manipulate >:}

  23. Oh, and lest I forget --

    Happy Holidays, everyone! ^___^

  24. Put down like rabid dogs? Seriously?
    I don't know about that one. Call me delusional or weak, but..it's not that I don't think they're evil and deserve all the worst in the world, and I never ever thought I would say this: "We don't want to be like them," but that's kind of the feeling I get. It's not that...it's okay to have morbid fantasies about killing those who deserve it but I just don't think the world works that way. Putting people down like dogs, eugenics, mass homicide, systematic killing, judging others as unworthy of living and then putting them down, holocaust, genocide, those are things that came from evil roots, those are solutions borne from evil minds. We cannot proclaim it as our own. This world will never come. We will never, as a society, create a world where putting people down and weeding people out, even to YOUR liking, even if it's the killers we're killing, this will never happen. In the world of abusers and survivors, that's all there is. Surviving. Being yourself. Hiding out and clinging and knowing what to do. Being yourself, being free.
    Total power will never come.
    And total power is only an illusion. I'm sorry.
    We all die in the end. Killing other people doesn't make it better. Hold on to what you got.

    Sidenote to Kimani: I don't think narcissists go after vulnerable ones. This is blaming the victim. Narcissists are just bad people, inside to out. You can slice them up, and they'll be bad on the inside, through and through. Anon wasn't waving her butt with a target. She did nothing wrong. Maybe she is hurt, but she did nothing wrong.
    I don't really understand your reasoning, what do you mean what is there to protect them? They play outside of the game. They don't listen to nobody, not even themselves. Are you saying we should threaten our mothers with murder? Make THEM scared? But what if this is not what we wanted, what if this is not the world we envision? Narcissists don't react the same as normal people. What good is threatening our moms with murder going to do? If murdering these people is such a good idea,
    then why don't you go do it?
    You can't play the narcissist's game. The reason they are different from us
    is because they don't have souls. They're not scary because they can commit homicide, they're scary because they don't listen to anybody, including themselves. They don't have souls.
    The law doesn't protect them, nothing protects them, they can't even protect themselves.

    You're saying the law doesn't protect you. Thus, you're saying the law will not protect them when supposedly you or some other victim goes after them. Is that supposed to make us feel better?

    The narcissist doesn't care about being protected. The narcissist cares about nothing.

    The objective here isn't to make narcissists scared. That's not what we wanted, that's not what their children wanted, that's not what innocent people want. That is the narcissist's game. And we can't play it. The truth is, that narcissist destroys others by pulling them into this game, making things about power and nothingness, kill or be killed, into this illusion that power and looks and numbers are everything. They kill others by blocking them from the good, from the truth. If we try to play this game later on, we are only letting them win, only letting the world they set out for us to come true. What if there's a better way? We find ourselves when we step out of this game.

  25. Hi, Lisa. I think I know exactly where you're coming from; its a discussion very similar to one I frequently have with a good friend of mine (who happens to be an ACON). I didn’t come to my ethical position on an impulsive whim and I’m not making my statements lightly. Nor am I suggesting that everyone could and should resort to homicide every time they encounter a bad person. I’ve spent a lot of time considering this issue and, until fairly recently, I’ve been very reluctant to voice my conclusions with anyone other than a few trusted friends. To be perfectly honest, several years ago I'd be making the exact same arguments you are. Before I get into responding to the rest of your reply there's one portion I'd like to address in particular:

    "Sidenote to Kimani: I don't think narcissists go after vulnerable ones. This is blaming the victim. Narcissists are just bad people, inside to out."

    It’s not my intention to place any blame on the victims of malignants. It’s just an observation that, like all parasites and predators, malignants will home in on any vulnerability they can exploit and single out those least able to defend themselves. An MN will attempt to hide their evil from the world at large or anyone that could put a stop to them but they've no qualms about showing their true colors to their own vulnerable children. How is pointing out that these creatures are sadistic cowards in any way “blaming the victim”?

    "Narcissists don't react the same as normal people. What good is threatening our moms with murder going to do? If murdering these people is such a good idea, then why don't you go do it?"

    If one threatened the lives of me and my loved ones I'd kill them in a heartbeat and not lose any sleep over it. You said it yourself: they have no souls [or what little soul they have is putrid and hideously deformed]. Their lives are not only meaningless but they have *negative* intrinsic value -- they are literally less than worthless. Why on earth should one give them the same humanizing consideration that I would for a good person who has honor, integrity, and love in their heart? They are not only incapable of appreciating the intent but are more than willing to consciously and knowingly, with cold-blooded calculation, exploit the compassion and good nature of others. Love and compassion for such a creature is not only an atrocious waste of good will but an existential spit in the face of every innocent they have ever -- or would ever -- harm.

  26. To indiscriminately extend one’s compassion is to nullify it’s worth and is as unjust as indiscriminate cruelty. I’ve no intention of being and automatic goodwill machine, so willing to shine the light of Agape that I feel compelled to forgive what should never be forgiven and value lives that don’t deserve to exist. Some beings deserve unspeakable suffering; some beings should be totally consumed by unrelenting terror; some beings ought to be utterly annihilated. It is very difficult – nigh impossible -- to deal with such beings in appropriate fashion if one develops their consciousness in the direction of unconditional love and compassion.

    I’ve come to the conclusion that MNs, psychopaths, villains – w/e one wants to call them – are consistently and accurately projecting their value and quality of their own being. Thru their behavior and intent they are telling *exactly* how they should be dealt with; with utter contempt and malicious disregard. They aren’t persons so much as *anti*-persons. Since they are spiritual polar opposites of good people it’s more appropriate to treat and regard them in a fashion that is the opposite of how one would treat an innocent; a kind of moral inverse operation. Peace, compassion, and reconciliation are for the living. As far as I’m concerned evil people are nothing but the walking dead – a form of *un*-life that exist only to torment, ruin, and destroy. At the risk of sounding like a cold machine I’ll say this:

    Compassion towards the depraved is the spiritual equivalent of multiplying a negative value by a positive; all you end up with is more negative. Positive intent towards an evil being, taken to is logical conclusion, is the same as *supporting* evil. Simply withholding compassion towards said being is practically equivalent to indifference toward their evil. It is only in malicious destructive intent toward the negative source that a positive result is produced. There is no inherent value in mercy and compassion toward the merciless and depraved. You say that turning on evil people with savage malice is somehow “stooping to their level”. How’s that so? What makes them evil is that they unjustly malign and harm the innocent – some time specifically target people precisely BECAUSE they are good and innocent. Tell me; how is savagely tormenting and utterly destroying such a perverse being BAD?

    Sometimes I think that what passes for goodness in this world is simply a reflexive aversion to perceiving suffering of any kind – whether it is deserved or not. I don’t think the normal level of malice generated by righteous outrage is sufficient when dealing with certain monsters. You’ve said yourself that these creatures deserve to die. You know in your heart that they deserve unimaginable suffering yet you recoil at the thought of anyone meting out such savage cruelty. I’m sorry but squeamishness is no reason why a depraved monster should be spared torment and destruction. I think many of these monsters are so far removed from the realm of normal human experience that most of us are spiritually and emotionally ill-equipped to deal with them in a commensurate fashion. Sometimes a just desert is a diabolically fiendish and cruel end.

  27. Don’t get me wrong; I’ve the same reflexive reaction to suffering as any other psychologically normal person. I even agree with your statement that life is not about power and domination; it’s not even my natural inclination to even *want* to dominate (hell -- I feel uncomfortable if I beat a friend in too many rounds of a game). I AM, however, making a deliberate conscious effort to learn how to override said impulse when it is appropriate. Right now I’m focusing on learning how to not reflexively bite back the most volatile and hostile emotions. It’s not and entirely pleasant experience but that’s irrelevant as I’m not following this path for pleasantry and kicks. I see a gap that needs to be filled and I’m working towards trying to fill it. It’s a way of being that I’ve chosen to cultivate within myself and I think it would be beneficial for humanity in general if at least some of us developed in this direction.

    Lisa, if that’s not the kind of existence you want for yourself I can understand why. By and large, people just wanna live out their lives in peace without unnecessarily being exposed to some of the nastier aspects of existence and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Personally, I’d prefer that everyone could live that kind of life but the cold reality is that evil exists -- evil *people* exist -- and it’s not going to go away just because all the good people in the world are willing hold hands and sing “Kumbaya”. Is it possible to eliminate all evil? Of course not; kill one monster and another will eventually take its place. However, using that as an argument against eliminating evil people is like saying one shouldn’t clean up waste in their environment because things just get dirty again anyway. You’re adverse to the thought of someone perpetrating violence of any kind for any reason? I get that. I happen to be more adverse to the thought of sharing a world with monsters if I don’t have to.

  28. Evil needs to be dealt with, and even having to deal with it or get rid of it is damaging and destructive to us.

    Not dealing with it is even more damaging and destructive to everyone.

    We need to minimize the damage whenever and wherever possible by minimizing the contact and interaction with evil as much as possible while effectively dealing with it. --quartz

  29. @Kimani:

    I'm sorry, did I sound compassionate to evil people to you?

    "It’s not my intention to place any blame on the victims of malignants. It’s just an observation that, like all parasites and predators, malignants will home in on any vulnerability they can exploit and single out those least able to defend themselves. An MN will attempt to hide their evil from the world at large or anyone that could put a stop to them but they've no qualms about showing their true colors to their own vulnerable children. How is pointing out that these creatures are sadistic cowards in any way “blaming the victim”?"

    You made a statement about the victim with a focus on the 'aspects' of the victim as a ways of explaining the narcissist's actions. You didn't say the narcissist was an evil fuck, you said that basically if a narcissist comes after you it's because you're vulnerable. That is blaming the victim and making them feel like they are walking around with a sandwich board saying, "Kill me, I'm vulnerable."

    What if the thing that makes someone vulnerable is the very thing that makes them good? And what if the very thing that makes them good is the very thing that makes them not want to kill narcissists? So what are you trying to say, that people should not be good? That the narcissists are right?

    Being vulnerable is what makes narcissists hate you but it is what makes the good people save you.

    What I disagreed with was how you attempted to put things in the victim's head that were not there. You want to find malicious intent, you want to find their killer instincts, you want them to want to kill their killers. What if they don't want to kill their killers?

    That doesn't me I haven't wished someone dead.

    Do you have the right to say that that is because they are weak? Do you have the right to say that is because they were brainwashed? Do you have the right to say they are being stupid and complicit? Do you have the right to tell them how to feel?

    I agree with about 90% of what you said. Narcissists are evil. They destroy precisely what is good. But we can't change that, can we. We can't change that we are good and they are not.

    But here is where I disagree. You don't need to be angry about narcissists "getting away with it". Goodwill is not for others. Goodwill comes from the victims and it is their right to enjoy their goodwill. And goodwill is infinite, it is never wasted. Nowhere did I say should we sing Kumbaya. The fuck? Kumbaya?!! I can't believe you're saying that. Did I say that narcissists deserve to die? Because I don't remember saying that. If I did, I take it back. I don't believe narcissists deserve to die. I never said that.

    Of course, if a rabid dog was jumping on me and I had a gun, I would shoot it. If a crazy person was trying to kill me, I wouldn't just stand there and go, "Oh, gee, I'm dying." But the thing is, when the hell is that going to happen?

    You're right, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said the thing about stooping to their level. That isn't exactly what I meant. What I meant was, you weren't listening to the victim. Thank you for thinking my squeamishness is stupid.

    Thank you for your backhanded condescending insult about how I merrily and naively skip through life and am apparently the 'tree hugger' of the narcissist group. Apparently, you don't know me very well.
    It's kind of ironic how you said that about me not 'wanting this kind of existence for myself' cause I just wrote an entry about how I think I always go towards the dark and don't let "squeamishness" (oh, puh leaze) stop me.
    I know who I am.

    I believe in one thing:
    Save the victim and FUCK the rest.
    Haters are goin' hate.

  30. Am I fashionably late enough for you guys?
    My solipsism is the only solipsism in existence.
    You have one too.
    Mine is the only one that counts.
    I know one true thing.
    If my mother didn't live three doors down from the parents of a cop that stops in to visit at all hours of the night.
    If there were not a street light right in front of her house.
    If she didn't own a gun and have a history of using it.
    I would be down there each night, terrorizing her into an early grave.
    My mother is a sociopath.
    I am my mothers son.
    For her, I would find that abominable dark place she put inside of me, and rain unspeakable terror down on her head until eternity with Satan looks like an eleventh hour reprieve from execution.