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From my experience with MNs, they view their target as holding the ruby slippers (narc supply) or holding a bucket of water (the truth/exposure).
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Did she literslly use the words "oh the fragility of life?" What the fucking fuck? how transparent can you get?
ReplyDeleteYes, she did! It was a line totally out of character for her, so it was transparent as hell. Can you image the Barbarian saying in soft tone: "Oh, the fragility of life." That's how crazy it was for me to hear MN sister saying shit like that.
DeleteSo Glad you are back blogging, Lisette...
DeleteThank you, Daag. It's nice of you to check-in.
DeleteI know I am way late to the party here but I had to comment! Reading that line made me recall when my narcissistic ex's wife (also a narcissist, in my opinion) was trying to get the court to give her parental responsibility of my children. When the magistrate pointed out that if she and my ex ever split it would mean a three-way battle over custody, my ex piped up that he was 'as certain as his own mortality' that the marriage would last. In a family court. The court that deals with divorce and relationship breakdown on a daily basis. Luckily the magistrate had half a brain, saw the situation for what it was, and told the pair of douchebags to GTFO (although he was politer about it than I'm being).
DeleteIt's at times like this that their grandiosity really shines through. Likewise, my N mother used to tell me "I know you better than you know yourself" and "no matter what you do, I'll always know about it", like she was omnipotent or something (which she genuinely believes she is, when she's not playing the 'poor me' card). I've gone No Contact with her now, but unfortunately I still have to have contact with the ex because, through a very convoluted state of affairs in which he managed to convince me I was incapable of looking after them, he has custody of our children.
"as certain as his own mortality that his marriage would last"
DeleteBarf! Eye-roll! So smug and grandiose indeed, but also a total liar. I don't know one narc who is certain of their own mortality. They DO think they are omnipotent and they also believe they can escape death because they are that special, that clever and that superior.
Sorry to hear that you still have to have contact with the douchebags. But I'm sure you'll have the last laugh when their marriage inevitably drops dead.
The barbarian would never want to be confused with someone who thinks and feels. She never said a kinder or gentle thing to a soul in her life.
ReplyDeleteMN sister has never said a kind or gentle thing to me in my life, unless it was in that smarmy tone that screams: "I'm trying to manipulate you!" It's really gross. It's that condescending tone that adults use with children. She such a fucking fraud. And she's completely deluded to think that I would ever buy what she's selling.
DeleteOuch, flying monkeys. The 'testamentary' Chief Flying Monkey of my (now dead) NM motherhag is my own eldest child (my daughter) appointed to her position long before the NMH died and groomed/trained/bribed and rewarded from infancy into her simian role. The capture of our children is especially bitter; we are intergenerationally dispossessed, and though this daughter has internalised malignancy as a way of acting and being. It was (and is) particularly painful that this golden grandchild Flying Monkey, my first daughter, was groomed to target and attack my second daughter, her younger sister. My second daughter was designated Grandchild Scapegoat. They tried to recruit my third child (son) too, though he resisted them, despite the bombardment of bribes when he was a child. My first daughter is in her 40s now, has never married or had a significant partner now children, is very wealthy, and I am glad she has no children of her own to corrupt and abuse. I am NC with her (for many years) and so is her sister (ditto). My son sees her once or twice a year (he feels sorry for her, and like me, sees that as a child, she never chose that role, she was selected for it). But she DID choose it later, she embraced it fully, and consciously exploited it in every way she could, spewing venom at her sister in unforgivable ways. The Grandchild Flying Monkey is one of the biggest tragedies IMO.
ReplyDeleteI have had many experiences with the flying monkeys. Once you figure out what the MN Witch is up to you can almost smell them swooping in. They seem to pop up more often around, birthdays, holidays and major life events. The thing that really pisses me off about the MN Witch is that they will try to recruit your children aka, the grandchildren, into that flying monkey position. They will attempt to mold them into their own little monsters and play the mind games with your innocent babies. I cut the MN mother, MN mother in-law and grandmother in-law off at the pass. All were attempting to mold my children into their little minions. Bribery seems to be the biggest tool that they use. Giving the children things that mom and dad don't let them have at home, and attempting to keep it a secret. Teaching the children, in turn, that lying to mom and dad is ok. I have gone NC with them and I have explained to my children why they are not going to be allowed in. I believe it is my job as a mother is to protect them from those monsters. I will not let them into my babies heads either.
ReplyDeleteAmie
Lisette,
ReplyDeleteI wrote to you a little while ago to say how much I enjoyed your blog and how glad I was that it was back online. Briefly, I was part of an emergency services type team that I now know had two narcissists at the helm; one typical MN, and the other one who is really stupid (a woman), a skinsuit N which does anything the N wants. I left that team last July, and have since joined another team filled with normal people, and I couldn't be happier! I in NO WAY want to go back to the old team, but I do think about it very often, and that angers me. Still working on that.
I just read your Flying Monkeys post. I feel like you are looking at EXACTLY what is happening with the old team. I know the names of all of the 'personalities' that you mention! I do have one question, though. The chief (The big MN which we shall call Jack) has been talking about stepping down and having someone else take over. He has been talking about this for years, but his ego won't let him drop the position because it's his whole life. The chosen one is not skilled, but is power hungry (Joey). Joey has his head firmly up the Jack's ass and seems to still be on track to take over. I'm hearing how power is going to Joey's head. What I want to know is will Joey feel the wrath of Jack? Is Jack just toying with Joey? I CANNOT see Jack allowing Joey to do a good job. That would hurt Jack's ego if someone was better than him, and he no longer would be the center of attention. Jack has many flying monkeys, and of course Joey and the skinsuit are just two. Any guesses what will become of Joey?
I still reread your posts often. Thank you!
Anon, I think you've got Jack and Joey pegged. Yes, I would have to agree that Jack is just dangling a carrot in front of Joey and probably has no intention of stepping down anytime soon or handing the position over to him, but Joey is the perfect Wannabe Monkey. Every motivation of the MN is geared toward staying on top and feeling superior so it makes sense that Jack would be grooming someone less skilled for his job. If Joey fails, Jack continues to look superior. I don't know all the details of the work situation, but my guess is Joey will get screwed over big time. If he actually does get the position, Jack's Monkeys or Jack himself will probably sabotage him in some way. These MNs do not go gentle into that good night. I'm sure Jack will hold power and influence long after he "steps down." In other words, Joey will never outrank Jack (at least not in Jack's eyes). Joey doesn't sound smart enough to outsmart a MN. I'm sure he will get burned, especially if he tries to present as Jack's equal.
DeleteI'm glad things are going well on your new team with the normal people! You can sit back comfortably and watch the Jack and Joey drama unfold.
I am enjoying the stress free environment, though I am still worried about retaliation as Jack has been stalking. Someone with a blocked number (Jack always called me with it, and no one else), called me at least a dozen times in a three week period. Surprise! The mouth-breather on the other end never said anything, and when I then let all of the calls go to voicemail, no message was ever left. Also, I have heard that he did that to someone else at the same time, and was seen a few times parked outside of people's homes or work. Should I worry about him physically harming me? I know he has hurt his girlfriend more than once. Are these N's full of hot air, or can they be dangerous? My husband is aware of the situation, but I didn't tell him too many specifics.
DeleteThis team is a psychologists dream! There are so many people with mental disorders there... :)
Again, thanks for all you do!
Annie Oakley
Anonymous and Amie, you may never give your children a greater gift than this. When I wrote the earlier message, I was thinking about the triple disenfranchisement: not having a real mother, (you know what I mean) me not having the daughter that motherhag stole, my other daughter and my son not having the sister they should have had. Now I realise that the disenfranchisement was quadruple: my own feelings as a disenfranchised mother of my first child are part of it too, a more shadowy but no less painful part, the might have beens are in some ways the hardest and most obscure losses to come to terms with. I will never see this daughter again. It is as if she was dead, and the child I would have hoped she might be never had a chance to exist. This kind of grief is silent and invisible, and the grief is my only remaining connection to that child I once gave birth to, still a bewildered, dazed, captive child-self myself. Good on you both for protecting your children - that's the foundation stone of genuine nurturing. Comments like yours warm my heart.
ReplyDeleteEducation is one of the keys for us. It seems a little different to have to warn your children about family members but 'readiness is all'. We taught our kids how to recognize different manipulation tactics, shared some excellent articles with our boys about bpd/narc girls and how they operate, and did our best to show how a normal family cares for one another. By giving them some preparation, they were ready and recognized the 'enemy' when they saw them. I'm so glad they aren't as naive as I was at a young age and seem confident in standing their ground when the wackos try to come into their lives.
ReplyDeleteA little thought keeps noodling around in my mind...does sister's condo have rules or covenants on cleanliness standards? Seems it might be fun to anonymously turn her in to the condo board for the hoarding mess she is living in. Hee, hee, that would be fun to watch.
"A little thought keeps noodling around in my mind...does sister's condo have rules or covenants on cleanliness standards? Seems it might be fun to anonymously turn her in to the condo board for the hoarding mess she is living in. Hee, hee, that would be fun to watch."
DeleteThe same thought has been noodling around in my mind for a couple of years! Also, some fellow ACONs have suggested I do the same. She sure deserves it! Get this: even though I was NC with the MN bitch, and she didn't know where I lived, she got my address from N Dad and called up my MN building managers and spread lies about me to them. They actually used the evil MN witch's lies as legal evidence when I went after them for harassment. Of course, people would never believe that "family" wouldn't lie about each other. I'd seen her once in 20 years! At the hearing I told court officers that I had no relationship with MN sister and she was not a credible person. The MN hag building manager passed that on to MN sister who called up N Dad and whined to him about me calling her not credible. Got that?! I was slandered, stalked, harassed and attacked by MN building managers and their Monkeys, AND MN sister colluding with them in their attack yet SHE was the one getting sympathy from N Dad. I won the hearing, received $$ for damages, and those sicko MN building mangers lost their jobs, but I was traumatized by the ordeal and suffered a lot of losses because of it. That it what I call tragic: when an innocent person gets attacked by a pack of Adult Monkeys who she has never done anything to, and never would do anything to. Adults should fucking know better. I honestly believe those MNs would pick and choose their tenants based on their percieved ability to control and manipulate them. I lived in a Lord of the Flies Building.
Frankly, evil witch MN sister has it coming to her. I'm just in plot and plan mode. I'll make sure the bitch pays.
I have two stepdaughters and I didn't have to tell them much about my malignant mother they told me. Each one of them told me never to leave them alone with her again after the first time. And this was when I was just figuring out what NPD is and that my mother is one. They homed in on her sickness cat quick. I think it had something to do with the interrogations she gave them as soon as we left the house.
DeleteLIssette I say go for it you know she would do it if the shoe were on the other foot.
Deleteq1605, that's what I like to hear. Not all children can be manipulated, controlled and bribed by a MN. Some kids are smart enough to see through the MN's slippery ways. Many children resist their influence... even very young children.
DeleteI'll go after MN sis all in good time... all in good time... moi hahahahah!
I have no positive regard for any FM's at all: In my mind, they're all co-abusers whether they "intend" to be or not. I'm not impressed with "intentions" or cloaking oneself as the "Mediator."
ReplyDeleteThe power of that word "Mother" or "Father" or any first degree relative opens all kinds of doors to continue reminding the victim, "You can *never* get away from me." Retribution disguised is still Retribution.
No way in hell would I allow these people near my kids: They'd do the same to them as they did to me sooner or later. You don't get a "Do Over" with MY kids simply because you gave birth to me or contributed a few chromosomes. DNA is not a "Get Out of Jail Free" Card: Once a Predator, Always a Predator.
TW
Amen and amen.
Delete"The power of that word "Mother" or "Father" or any first degree relative opens all kinds of doors to continue reminding the victim, "You can *never* get away from me." Retribution disguised is still Retribution."
DeleteIn my experience the most sinister form of retribution in disguise is "false concern" for the target. MN sister was out for revenge for me writing about her and MN mother on ACON blogs. So when her telephone calls, hoovering, and Flying Monkey shit didn't work she called up complete strangers - the MN building managers - and told them I was mentally ill, all under the guise of false concern. Of course, MN sister's fellow MNs loved that juicy lie and spread it through out my building, got people to write false reports about me, and called the police and had them enter my apartment when I wasn't home because they were "concerned for my well being." And that's exactly the excuse these sick fucks used in their legal testimonies to explain away their abuse of me: "We were concerned for her well being." Aw, ain't that sweet? So many MNs that I'm exposing are concerned for my well being. Yeah, MN sister sure let me know I can't get away from her.
Well, I'm away from vile bitch now and I'M seeking retribution. It's my turn to spread my "concern" to her condo board, the health department, fire and safety, community mental health services, the police... Have I left anyone out?
"False concern for the target". Six months after my daughter was born I began to experience migraines so severe that they reduced me to days of vomiting in a dark room, unable to bear daylight or noise. This lasted for 3 weeks. The MN motherhag - acting completely out of character - as she had never done anything to genuinely help anyone - came and took my daughter home as I couldn't look after her and my [first} husband had to work (and wouldn't have had a clue how to change a nappy, and in the 1960s, no intention of learning as men do now). When I recovered MNH announced that grandchild was staying with her for a while because I was "too mentally ill" to look after her alone at home during the day. (I wasn't mentally ill, I was 18 and learning mothering from books, having had no previous experience of it in any sense) and doing quite well overall. But I was easily undermined, being a perfectionist with very fragile self confidence. My daughter never came home. MNH declared me an "unfit mother" and threatened to take me to the highest court in the country if I tried to get my daughter back. And she would have done, she would have told any lie and been supported by Useless Unprotective Dad Flying Monkey. She bought off useless husband, and I left him. She told me daughter, all her childhood, that I had abandoned her.
ReplyDeleteTW, did I "let this happen" to her? I did. Your comment that you would never let this happen would have been true for me too, I hope, if I had had any inkling at that point as to what had happened to me. But I didn't. The mindfuck of "useless and hopeless" was in full force then.
I responded to the immediate loss of my daughter by developing an eating disorder which drowned out the pain for the next four years. A kind of attempted suicide, really, though I didn't realise that at the time. My daughter (the first) hates me with all the intensity that one human can hate another. Being hated that much is an instructive experience. HOM has helped me immensely to come to terms with the many lingering unresolved painful feelings and self-accusations about this. I don't feel shamed and guilty about any of this any more.
In my husband's experience and mine, my MN tried to gradually manipulate and harm our kids - ex. having them repeatedly hold a stick for her giant boisterous dog who she never bothered to train so they would be tackled. My daughter was a toddler and my son a little older. When my son told me about it later, I thought, "that sounds exactly like her!" And she would do it only once in front of me, watched me frown and say no, almost like she was bragging, and I had no idea, although I should have. We have four mutts and they all hated her dog. She found him amusing.
ReplyDeleteSince my dad is dead (she destroyed him) the only other person she has hated for so long is me. So, my not-slick husband (loving and hardworking, but not super-cool) and I bore the brunt, then our kids, and then our kids to try to hurt us. She tried to kill them in front of us and there's nothing we could have even done to prove it if she succeeded. In freezing weather, two little kids, having them charge repeatedly toward a seven-story high balcony railing at her condo, only in one direction, with patio doors all open (funny, not concerned about losing heat, that time). Big and pregnant, I kept saying, "No." My husband walked outside and said, "there are bolts missing from this railing." As I expressed surprise and worry, her evil sneering face said it all. "And what are you going to do, you fucking rube?"
Chances are MNs will leave an impact and cause damage that will only be fully detected afterward. That we might "give our children no greater gift" than No Contact with their evil MN grandmother is absolutely right!
THIS MOFO POST IS THE GOSPEL!!!!! THANK YOU
ReplyDeleteLissette; once again you have answered a question that has been making me crazy ever since i became aware I was the scapegoat in an MN family[ well, had a name for it]. there are a couple of people in my FOO who I could not figure out. They have done some monstrous things, told vile lies, etc. in fact often they have committed more outragous atrocities than the "leaders of the borg," but still I could not call them MNs. Just today I realize that they are "flying monkeys."
ReplyDeleteI need to re-read your blog so that I can figure out if I need to go 100% NC with them as well.
Anon if you need to "figure out" If you need to go NC let me save you some time. Just do it!
DeleteI'll back it up a step further: If you're even considering NC, you're already in N/MN "territory." Think about it: If people were treating you with respect and dignity as a human being regardless of their DNA relationship to you, NC or even LC would never even cross your mind.
DeleteTW
My mother, I finally realize, is a flying monkey. i have been trying to figure it out forever.
ReplyDeleteMy mom is this sweet, cute, little old lady[85 years old, with as much energy as some women half her age], who, more than anyone else is DIRECTLY the cause of so much suffering.and i could not figure it out, until now.
a couple of years ago, I was begging her to tell the truth on a series of lies she had spread about me that caused so many problems. she said that she was sorry, and that if she had understood the truth at the time that she would not have done what she did. so I asked her, BEGGED her to tell the truth. she said no. she said at this point it wouldn't matter. i begged her to just do it and see what would happen. That is when she got nasty. I remember that I told her, "Mom, if you were to walk into a room and Kim was tearing apart and eating live babies that you would, number one, ask how they should go about pinning this on vicky, and two, offering her a glass of milk and a bottle of ketchup to go with it."
she was understandably enraged and I explained that I was exagerating, but only slightly, to make a point.I guess I don't need to tell you that the conversation went downhill from there.
Anyway, she can be so sweet and i believe it is genuine. Do i believe my mother has an oceanful of love for me? I have always known otherwise. But, until the last several years I believed that she had a thimblefull of love for me and I cherished those few drops.
she has tried to talk me into ending my life more than once, but each time it has been because she felt that my existence might damper the happiness of my brother and [especially] my sister[younger sister]
if my mom is a flying monkey and not an MN, then maybe that thimbleful of love that i receive from her when my siblings are not involved, exists, right? Or no?
Vicky, the short answer to your question is: your mother is both. She is a MN and a MN Flying Monkey. She has no love to give, not even a thimble full. That thimble of fake love/lies is how she manipulates and controls you. She gives you a tasty treat from time to time to keep you confused and off balance. She's playing the rat game with you: most of the time she zaps you with an electric shock, and occasionally she gives you a treat. The treat is what keeps you coming back, but you will continue to get burned. Don't play her game.
DeleteLisette said: "The main reason a psychopathic chief bully gets away with his (or her) behaviour repeatedly is that no-one wants to believe that s/he could be the monster s/he is. This is also the reason that many pedophiles and wife-batterers evade accountability and sanction for years, often decades. They appear so charming and plausible to naive, unenlightened and inexperienced people - usually those who haven't experienced bullying themselves."
ReplyDeleteRight on!!! It's interesting how skillful MNs and sociopaths figure out ways to imitate the behavior of genuinely nice and sincere people so that the MN can fly under the radar. Like someone told me a few months ago, "nice is a choice. Nice does not equal integrity. Nice does not mean someone is honest. Nice does not mean that someone won't smile at you while stealing you blind." Your comment reminds me of that sentiment.
As for the smear campaigns MNs employ-- have noticed that they pro-actively smear and use the most outrageous lie they can come up with on the spot. (And the many honest people in the world tend to believe it because there are people who have not been exposed to a full blown MN and do not know how the MNs operate.) Have also noticed an even dirtier trick an MN will play. The MN will do something terrible and then initiate a smear campaign accusing their victim of the very thing that the MN did. i.e. Mother-in-law tears apart her daughter-in-law's private files and then mother-in-law comes sobbing to her son that daughter-in-law went through MIL's private files. (ETC...)
But, what is still mind-boggling is why people would allow themselves to be a monkey for an MN, especially when there is no potential positive pay-off for the monkey. Ideas?
They allow themselves to be monkies because they do not know the truth like we do and are scared of the MN and the retribution they will face if they're not the MN's monkey.
DeleteExactly. The Thing about MNs is they are all Bullies, and through the destruction of the Scapegoat the MN makes an example of what will happen to them if they don't comply with her orders. So the Monkeys are all complicit in the abuse of the Scapegoat and they know it, but in order to hide their own liability they have to hide the MN's as well. In other words, the MN has all the Monkeys in her pocket. She knows that they are all accomplices and she can expose them at any time, so the more outrageous the MN witch is in her abuse of the target, the more the Monkeys have to cover her tracks to cover their own crimes. That's why the abuse heaped on the target just increases. These Monkeys are potential victims too, all wondering who the MN will sic everybody on next. So the Monkey does what they’re told. The payoff for the Monkey is that they are saving their own skin from the wrath of the Malignant Narcissist Witch. They are nothing but cowards who sacrifice the Scapegoat instead of standing up to the MN bully witch.
DeleteI have another perspective on one certain Flying monkey. My N Mum's husband (I refuse to call him stepfather as he is only *3* years older than me) is an extrordinarily weak person - so weak he is like my N Mum's shadow. He has always given me that impression for as long as I have known him. He acts like an old man and he is only 43.
DeleteHe is the person that she tried to make my father into but failed. (My father's regular confrontations with her and refusal to deny reality kept us 4 children relatively sane! )
D was a readymade ''yes-man'' and after the last time I saw them (hopefully last one for good) I have genuine concern for his emotional/spiritual safety if one day he realises what a vampire she really is. Hopefully for his sake and *after* her death he comes to know the truth and becomes a real individual who can think for himself independently.
"what is still mind-boggling is why people would allow themselves to be a monkey.. especially when there is no potential positive pay-off for the monkey."
ReplyDeleteThe pay-offs are considerable. They share in the bloating of the ego by disempowering the targets and stealing their power. They ego-trip on that, and it's a positive for them. They often steal the target's potential inheritance as a member of the family; they benefit from getting 'positive comparison compliments' from the Narc, (in comparison to the denigration of the target). They get to share in the goodies all along. They get off on watching the target's pain and confusion, which gratifies them and shores up their feeling of being superior. They manipulate, steal and lie to hijack promotions, property, power, the target's reputation. What don't you get about this?
"what is still mind-boggling is why people would allow themselves to be a monkey"
ReplyDeleteBeing from a nfoo, there are huge pay offs. Attention, money,gifts, etc and what Anna already said. The monkeys are narcs themselves and are more than happy to do the head narcs bidding. In the nfoo, the monkey sibs are exact replicas of the nparent/parents.
I kept my children from Narcissistic MIL too. I stupidly assumed that grandmothers would love their grandchildren, instead she used my newborn premature daughter almost immediately as no more then a tool to use against me, to breed disharmony and cause her trouble for her precious Nsupply. Had I known, I would not let her near her. Letting her near my daughter for the first part of her life (2 years) is one of my biggest life regrets.
ReplyDeleteBut I noticed what NMIL was doing and I did not like what she was breeding between my and daughter, so I cut her off the children.
10 years later she is claiming victim for being kept away from her grandchildren and my husband is falling for it all of a sudden, even though doctors and counsellors told us that not being near her was imperative for the well being of the children. Still, it is so much better then the situation that could have been had I let them near her.
I learned with my second and third child, they barely even know who she is. Forewarned is forearmed.
Leah, that is not my quote. That quote is from Bullyonline. If you had read the post you would known this, and if you had read the post you would not have asked the question: "But, what is still mind-boggling is why people would allow themselves to be a monkey for an MN, especially when there is no potential positive pay-off for the monkey. Ideas?"
ReplyDeleteThe entire post is dedicated to exploring this. You have a history of not reading the blog post before you comment. Either do me the courtesy of reading my posts before you comment, or don't comment at all. This isn't a forum for you or anyone else to hold court. I feel I need to remind some of you that this is my blog - not yours. Got that?
HOM is an ACON Blog, not a place for weeping and gnashing about your damn kids, in-laws, out-laws etc. Children stolen or influenced by MN grandparents are NOT Flying Monkeys, they are pawns in the MN's game. If after a certain age they have sided with the MN, then consider your children MNs as well. Again, this is an ACON Blog.
Yes, absolutely1 I have no less that three malignant narcissists in my immediate family. All of them are known to say falsehoods, which ignites a normal person to question them,in which they persistantly defend the lie (gaslighting). It is after that point they become a victim, you become the agressor, and the flying monkeys are deployed.
ReplyDeleteYeah Anon, the other term for that is DARVO: Deny, Argue, Reverse Victim Order so you appear to be the Perpetrator instead of the Victim. The Flying Monkeys will also use this tactic to present themselves as having the High Moral Ground, in the name of "Family Unity"/"We're SUCH a CLOSE Family!" (BLAAA!) or some such BS as they continue to carry out the Retribution Agenda of the primary MN(s). They're either MNs themselves or MNs in training.
ReplyDeleteMuch like Lisette's description of her MNsister's behavior, my MNsister pulled a similar stunt on me when I NC'd Psychobitch as well as MNsis. The latter had announced to me many years previously I would be the "primary caretaker" of Psychobitch as she aged. (As if I hadn't been doing this all my life up to NC?!) One day about 4 yrs. post NC, I received a "Hi, How are you, TW? If you ever want to talk" etc. letter out of no where from MNsis. Not surprisingly, MNsis was no assistance to Psychobitch once I left the scene of the crimes other than to tap into Psychob's formidable financial resources. (See the Post, "Narcissists Are Greedy.") I later learned Psychob moved to another city where her (now deceased) brother, SIL and 8 kids lived-as I had suggested to her many years previously-and parasitically attached herself to SIL's now adult kids and their families.
Much to their everlasting chagrin.......!
TW
"DARVO: Deny, Argue, Reverse Victim Order so you appear to be the Perpetrator instead of the Victim. The Flying Monkeys will also use this tactic to present themselves as having the High Moral Ground, in the name of "Family Unity"/"We're SUCH a CLOSE Family!" (BLAAA!) or some such BS as they continue to carry out the Retribution Agenda of the primary MN(s)"
DeleteI've never heard of DARVO before, but I've lived it. MN sister and MN mother did everything in their power to push me out the "family" and treat me like an interloper. And while I lived at the opposite end of the country, which is exactly what they wanted, MN sister spewed crap like: "You know Lisette, family is the most important thing." And MN mother whined, "You abandoned your family." Oh yes, they played having the moral high ground all in the name of family unity. Here's the kicker: when I told MN mother I was thinking of moving back she became furious and screamed, "Why do you want to come back here?! Your father doesn't even live in the city half the time!"She used N father as a scapegoat for her hatred and fear of me returning. That was the last conversation I ever had with her. I did move back and at a friend's urging, I called her up and left a phone message: "Hey Betty, just wanted to let you know I'm back and I'm going to be here for a long, long time."
These deluded, pathological control freak MNs bitches actually think I need their permission to live in the same city as them.
Part of the way up and close to the top you said something about it being like a chess match. I am way old to devote that kind of mental energy to what could/should be an effortless and mutually fulfilling interaction. I think that is why with my mother I went straight to a sledgehammer approach, that and her rages were so over the top from the get go I could see early on diplomacy would get me nowhere fast
ReplyDeleteYeah, I understand the sledgehammer approach. The ax came down on my "relationshits" with MN mother and MN sis long, long ago. They are severed completely - NC. But I do have LC with N father, and since MN sister is still waging war, I will fuck with her through N father. We never had a mutually fulfilling interaction. There is nothing reciprocal or fulfilling about a interaction with a MN - its always war. Either I back down and go away (which is what she wants) or I make my presence known and drive her fucking nuts. I have a relationship with N father simply out of spite for MN sister and MN mother. I'm doing the opposite of what they want me to do.
DeleteDoes your sister do you the courtesy of waging a declared war on you? my mother was sickly sweet and ever so nice when she was in the same room with me. but ripped me apart as soon as I left. I should have known that she ripped everyone a new one as soon as we left her proximity why I thought I was exempt I will never know.
ReplyDeleteMN sister is as covert as they come. She's been trying to annihilate me on the sly since birth. She has never stopped maligning me to N parents. She usually spreads her lies via false concern so she can continue to look good in their lying eyes. She projects all her crap onto me and then turns around and claims to be concerned for me. For example, she's a shut-in hoarder, with a host of mental illness who hasn't seen my N dad in about 10 years yet he believes her (even though he sees me at least once a month) when she tells him I have bi-polar or schizophrenia or whatever disorder she pulls out of a hat. The only way to beat that crazy bitch at her own game is not to let on that I'm playing.
ReplyDeleteOne thing that I have had to learn the hard way, they are all her flying monkeys. There is not one relative that will really be an ally or ever choose me over her. This includes my brother who is likeable in other ways, but definitely influenced by her poison and smear campaigns.
ReplyDeleteI woke up to the fact my whole family has been poisoned against me via the whole scapegoating process just some time ago. I was trying to rebuild relationships thinking that 23 years as an adult on my own, physical distance between parties, etc would help. It didn't.
The Queen Spider remained in the middle and my father's [he was an N too but now deceased] side of the family even made sure I was not invited to a wedding. I never see my nieces and nephews unless they are at her house. There are relatives I have not seen in 30 and in 8 years. I may see a few cousins next month but not without some trepidation and have not made up my mind to go yet. One thing that is scary with flying monkeys they will be NICE to your face but then you see the damage done pretty soon. They will send your emails where you pour your heart out to them to the Queen, they will always serve as tattle-tales even as adults into their 40s.
Everything is about pleasing, appeasing her and revolving around her. All visits are paid to her. No relatives have crossed the threshold of my home in years and years. I remained LC for a couple reasons but one was that I would never see my nieces and nephews again, but I fear at least with one branch of the family they will be poisoned against me anyhow. The ones who are low on money and someone dependent I can understand but the ones who do not need her, I do not get it.
She has even abused family members who have become her Stockholms and they seem like mental slaves with no minds of their own, who hate me even more now. I am LC but the family as a whole keep me at a arm's distance. I would be NC except for acouple circumstances I don't want to go into. In my case they don't seek me out, because about 15 years ago, I started standing up for myself, no more verbal and other abuse. In that case the scapegoat will be ostracized. I tell people here I do not have a family including my self help group which nodded their heads, and they know me enough to see their utter lack in my life. I have to admit the betrayal of the flying monkeys and their refusal to ever think for themselves or ever have any courage to stand up for me has been a life long disappointment. I do not expect anything from any of them anymore. I fear for nieces and nephews being treated like this and find myself wondering who will be the chosen scapegoats of the next generation.
I have gone NC totally with two aunts, one an N and probably a psychopath, her controlled daughter and the other the Stockholm in the last year and purposefully keep my contact as distant as possible. My relationship with the family as a whole has grown more distant. I can't trust any of them and none of them have any love or true loyalty or desire for me to be in their lives because of her. It was very hard to deal with, trust me a lot of grief, but I had to give up in trying to reclaim and rebuild relationships. She even had control over a side of the family I thought she had no contact with, who she managed to poison them against me as well. My aim now is to build a life of friends, I always have had to do that and try to make it the best I can. Friends have been far closer to me then family.
Anon, speaking from experience, the nephews and nieces will emulate what has been taught to them. Most of them(if not all), will become like the narcs. They have already been taught to go against you since day one.
DeleteI think you are right anon. I worry some of them will become like the narcs. I find myself hoping one or two are not and will "rebel". I have prayed that at least one will end up DIFFERENT. Am not sure if I will get that wish or not. It got back to me that Spider Queen and N Golden Child were scared one niece was too much like me. [capable of independent thought] I hope she isn't the one being "chosen". I agree about them being taught against me since day one. I can tell with N uncle's family at least one child has become a full blown narc. At this point I expect nothing, the influence of the Ns holds.
Delete"...a lot of grief, but I had to give up in trying to reclaim and rebuild relationships." Check! Yes, there's a ton of grieving and grieving isn't just about what was, but also about what might have been but will never be. Grieving is the hardest work I've ever done.
ReplyDelete"My aim now is to build a life of friends....Friends have been far closer to me than family." Truth right there, Anon.
"I can't trust any of them..." and trust is the bedrock foundation of all relationships. Without trust, there is no basis to build or re-build.
It takes so much energy to deal with this stuff, no? It's exhausting.
Retrospectively, I don't at all regret the time, energy, effort and expense (material and more significantly, immaterial) I put into trying to have some sort of relationship with Psychob and MNsis as well as extended family. When I walked away I knew I had done every last possible thing I could to ameliorate the relationships. Ultimately it became clear if my presence wasn't helping, my absence wouldn't hurt yk? I did wonder if in future years I would feel guilt for having NC'd and all these years later I have never felt guilt at all-just huge relief. Their physical deaths were meaningless to me as they died a sloowww, painful death in my mind years before when I NC'd.
While I've never felt guilt, sometimes I've beat up on myself for having waited so long to NC. Interestingly, I've never run across any ACON who later regretted or felt guilt re: NC either.
The gift of time gave me an opportunity to not only put my own life back together with the help of my late DH and some wonderful friends-who ARE my "Family"-and to see how the devastation reaped by the MNs and their Flying Monkeys caused a huge implosion/explosion as they turned on one another and cannibalized what remained behind.
I wish I could tell you I felt compassion or any kind of positive regard for the Primary MN Perps or the FM Co-Abusers: That would be so acceptably "PC" and so nicely sanctimonious of me, eh?!
But I'm not gonna BS ya! ;)
TW
Yes this year I had to grieve not really having a family and admit it to myself, and because I am childless and now passing that age of future children, it is far harder. Thanks for relating here. The grieving and saying to myself, "I don't really have a family" was finally the admission I had to make. They never were really a family even when I was young since they were out to abuse me, scapegoat me and with some members destroy me.
DeleteAgree about friends, some of them died which make things very hard but then I was forced to face the grief about the family too after the latest friend died of stage 4 cancer after being diagnosed 4 weeks before.
Yes I agree since there is no trust, well there is no basis to rebuild. They have no loyalty and will always "rat" me out and listen to the Ns over anything I have to say. They have been trained by the Ns to ignore me, discount and reject everything I have to say.
Hey you tried your best with the extended relatives. I reached that point too. I will have some contact with my brother but I know he is under the Ns sway to a point, the rest, well, it's a waste of time. I will talk to N sis on occasion but I haven't seen her in three years so it does not influence my life that strongly. I tried to, I tried talking things out, etc etc. Trying to figure out why they did not want to include me in their lives, or treated me so badly, or why I was dis-invited from places. I'm done. I'm done with the guilt and blaming myself and admitting with the Malignant Ns in the mix that they are terrible people and it was not me.
I am glad you had your DH and friends to help. My husband admits what they are, too and that has helped. Friends also give me understanding and compassion.
I had to shut down the "positive feelings", I realized after trying, they didn't want my love either. Maybe that is the conclusion you came to as well. So no I don't mind when people aren't PC. It's better to admit what is true. Thanks Tundra Woman!
Hi, everyone!!! I have been reading through this site and am SO GLAD to have found you! I have a MN sister and feel the pain!!!! I've gone semi-NC and it feels great!!! More to come later!!
ReplyDeleteHas anyone been watching the first two seasons of the "Real Housewives of Vancouver"? ie. what's been happening to a lovely lady named Mary ... Just saying...
ReplyDeleteMNMIL just lost her husband, one of her main FMs. Instead of grieving, this woman instead seeks to find a replacement for him and she finds her. It is a woman that is much the same personality wise to her and FIL (who were a MN evil team). This woman was chosen by them for their sons to marry as she was FILs dream girl and DH and BIL both find her creepy, creepy like MIL and FIL are and were.
ReplyDeleteSo MNMIL, who while she is doing this is claiming she is a holy saint, is driving to this FMs home regularly and the job of the FM is to make MNMILs dream come true of obliverating her sons families.
So for 2 months after FILs death, I am receiving regular calls from this new FM trying to convince me to leave my husband and MNMIL sits there with drool coming out of her ugly ugly mouth wondering if her dreams of anialating her sons families are finally coming true because a great injustice was done to her when they married, they stopped serving her!All their attention was no longer only for her, she lost her substitute spouses and the lifestyle that gave her.
The evil is mindboggling and I am not sure who she is trying to convince with this godly saint mask she wears, us or herself that she is not evil.
So, I stopped accepting calls from this FM, once I realized what was happening and now MNMIL is working on her own again, and she is not very effective at all really.
Basically, she lied about FIL all their lives and then pretended that she was the victim of him, got her sons to hate him, yet oddly enough FIL was still willing to be her FM, to be her muscle. It was almost as if in being her muscle and FM, he would get a break from her attacking him and he helped her attack me instead, asked me several times to bring the grandkids to her, and there was no way I was feeding my kids to the hungry monster to save FIL.
It all sounds so crazy, I almost feel crazy writing this but I swear this is true and only those dealing with other Malignant Narcissists would probably understand that and believe the insanity that comes with these monsters.
The new FM, it was almost like she was enjoying the drama that MIL was bringing to her life, it was like it gave her something to do. She was getting all involved in this, stroking her ego because it made her feel good that MIL and FIL thought she was the perfect woman for their sons and that FIL wished she was who he would have married if he was only 40 years younger.
Interesting how MIL was always accusing FIL of cheating on her, and yet clings to the woman that it would be most likely true of in the end. He was much more emotionally intimate with the new FM then he was anyone in his family.
What a twisted freak show this is!
From my experience, letting in the FMs is like opening yet another door to the MN and what you want is to close as many as possible.
"The Monkey is choosing to accept the MN's lies and share her distorted reality. The Monkey is choosing to side with an evil Malignant Narcissist. Doesn't that make Flying Monkeys evil by proxy?"
ReplyDeleteI guess in some cases it could, and you're right - it doesn't really matter why they are choosing to accept the distorted reality of the MN, they are still siding with evil...Having had to deal with Monkeys my whole life courtesy of MN mother, I'd have to say there are some I hate more than others. The family members who she managed to use to do her dirty work while refusing to even consider what I had to say, I pretty much hate them and have long since cut them out of my life. The latest set of Monkeys that I had to deal with were people from Evilb's church who thought I lost my mind for wanting to get her out of my life. I avoid them like the plague, but don't hate them. I kind of see them as victims of Evilb's academy award worthy acting skills - I'm telling you, the bitch can put on a show like you wouldn't believe! lol These people probably have never had to deal with anything like her in their entire lives, and if they're lucky, they never will again.
"Female MNs are more devious, more cunning, more sly, more psychological and are expert at reading emotional cues and zeroing in others' vulnerabilities that they can use to exploit. Whereas men are brash, have a tendency toward physical violence and usually are not as astute at reading others."
I'm with you on this one for sure!! Don't get me wrong, I try like hell to avoid male and female MNs, but I am way more concerned about run-ins with females for all of the reasons that you listed. They are way more manipulative, have greater ability to poison the minds of others, and IMO are more dangerous overall.
Thanks for another great post, Lisette!
ANON
Just wanted to say thanks to you, Lisette, for writing this blog. I found it a couple of days ago and have been reading it throughout the weekend.
ReplyDeleteAlthough I've been aware of malignant narcissism for a few years now, this is the first time I've encountered and read the blog of a fellow ACON. Some parts have really struck a chord, to the point of tears, and it only goes to show how all narcs are essentially the same. NC has been the most liberating decision of my life, but the healing takes longer.
Seeing evil for what it is does help enormously. I've learned not to bother going into detail with friends as to why I have no contact with my family because their first reaction is always "but she loves you in her own way". No she doesn't! Or another common one is "she's sick, she cannot help herself". The hell she can't!
It seems that, unless you've actually lived it, the very idea of a mother maliciously abusing her own child is something they cannot wrap their heads around, so they make excuses for someone they've never even met.
That's why blogs like this are needed. It has certainly helped to validate my own experiences and remind me that MNM really is an evil bitch who deserves no sympathy whatsoever.
You're welcome, Anon.
Delete"Seeing evil for what it is does help enormously."
I believe this is key: name it, accept it, and make no apologies for accepting it. Being matter of fact about evil gives it less power. It is what it is, and "it" deserves no sympathy whatsoever.
I am a 64 year old woman and have just told my asshole 67 year old brother to get the hell out of my life for good. We both had a terrible upbringing with parents who were more interested in terrorising each other than us, although my father liked to terrorise me too, to keep me up to speed with what I should expect later in my own married life. Mother did a huge act of doting on the asshole brother which was very transparent as she was only interested in playing a role. She took it out on him and his wife years and years after he'd left the nest with constant phone calls and pestering while making it quite clear she thought her daughter in law was not up to scratch. Mercifully she died 30 years ago, our MN father pegged it 20 years ago. So I get these annoying sms'es from my brother: "Don't you think it's peaceful since our parents have died?" I am, wtf, they've been out of our lives 20 and 30 years. Then the brother sms'es me how they messed up his life - hell, they didn't do much for me either - and how he could have led a far better life if such-and-such had happened instead of what did happen. He has four grown children, all successful, what is his beef. I made the mistake of accidentally sms'ing a text message to his landline and boy did he hit the roof! He sent an sms to my landline, over and over, telling me not to send sms'es to his landline. Spaced seconds apart, dozens of dozens of these text phone calls on my landline. That's so far, I don't know how long this will continue. I use my landline for business purposes, the brother is retired, I don't need this. I have now told him to get lost, I don't care about his missed opportunities, I don't care about his diagnoses of other people as personality disordered - he has called me borderline personality disordered - I don't care about mom and dad and all their crap. My husband tells me I'm overreacting. No I'm not. No more bullshit from family members.
ReplyDeleteLisette,
ReplyDeleteI''m not sure if you can answer this question (or if anyone here who's been there can); but I have finally gone NC with the entire Narcissistic Cult (my FOO and their FMs), and I am now being smeared like you wouldn't believe. What I want to know is approximately how long will it take before the cult moves on and selects a new target? After all, there's no way that they'll be able to go without NS for months without withering away.
NarcFree, the smear campaign IS the supply. Low contact, no contact, death - they will always smear the one that challenges them in anyway. You are a lifelong source of supply. If the narcs cannot obtain it directly from you, they will obtain it through you. There are a tons of comments on HOM that will attest to this. There's not really much you can do other than get away and stay away. Anyone who would swallow the narc's lies isn't worth trying to redeem yourself to. The narcs, their monkeys, minions and accomplices all deserve each other. As long as there is a narc and someone to listen to them, there will be shit talk about the escapee.
ReplyDelete