Bullshit. This whole comment amounts to "try to erase your feelings and only feel good!" - thanks for nothing, asshole. Meanwhile s/he's mentally annihilating his/her family, evaporating them, and somehow this is progress? What a mindless, hypocritical piece of advice. I just posted Alice Miller's take on hate yesterday, I must have been receiving alien signals to counterbalance such derivative information! Hate does not destroy unless it is denied. Which is precisely what this commenter is prescribing. No thank you.
Upsi, Thanks for the ass kicking words! What's funny is, after I watched *Enlightened* I received the comment, and then immediately noticed you had JUST posted (within 20 minutes or so) Alice Miller's take on hate. I thought there was definitely something in the air. Thought I might add a link to your blog post if that's ok with you? The article is fantastic. And umm, very timely.
That sounds like it was written by an 8 legged sea creature. Problem with her theory is that most of us knew our grandparents. I knew my mothers mother. She raised me after my mother abdicated. She was old fashioned and could be irritating, but she was in no way disordered. My current significant other wonders how I turned as normal as I did knowing the environment I was raised in and I think it can be attributed to my grandmother. They are fucked up because it's easier and they are lazy. Meet every parental challenge with cruelty. It's far easier than to think of the best way to raise a child. Just lock them in a room with a sloped floor and roll peas to them under the door. Parental challenge solved.
Let me see if I can pinpoint how all of this started. "Ladeedaaa...I dropped off the clothing that I wanted to donate to charity, and I'm done feeding the homeless. I checked on my elderly neighbor, and now I'm bored. Should I read a magazine? Should sew a new dress to donate? No, I got it! I'm going to troll a blog about MNs, then take the time to write a passive-aggressive novel to the author in the form of a comment!!! Way to "focus on good"! LMAO
If you are so happy, joyful, and everything is so great with the MNs, then what the hell are you doing trolling a blog about them? If you spend your days spreading "good" around the world, and you pushed everything "evil" out of your mind, then what is the attraction to a blog about evil-ass MNs?
Does it sound to you as if Lisette, or any of her readers for that matter, need a sermon from YOU on how to deal with a MN? If you really think so, I highly recommend that you read a few more of her posts, and spend a little time in the comments section.
Does is seem to you that Lisette doesn't know how to have fun? Maybe writing her blog is "fun" to her, and what makes it even more fun is when narc trolls try to slide in their take on things. That's when it really gets fun! It's kind of like word-search - we hunt through the backhanded compliments, translate them into the language of a non, and expose them for the world to see!
You're not as smart as you think you are. Truly, you gave yourself away after the first couple of sentences. While giving her your backhanded compliment, you simultaneously vaunted yourself by saying that it GROUNDS you to remember the distance you've traveled. You're suggesting that you're so much further along the healing path than others and we're just sad, pathetic and desperately searching for validation and visibility.
Get a life, you pathetic troll, or in the words of Emma, the previous commenter, "Fuck off."
***Lisette, thank you for all the work you've put into this blog.***
I don't know if this sounds patronizing to you. It kind of does to me. It IS a lot of hard work creating a blog and yours Lisette, is a cut above any I know. The harder part is deciding how much of ones self one wants to reveal. If it were all about pasting links and cool pictures, this wouldn't be much of a challenge. Mick and Keith put it best. "If I could stick my pen in my heart And spill it all over the stage Would it satisfy ya, would it slide on by ya Would you think the boy is strange? It's about getting the nerve to say what you mean, mean what you say, and hitting the publish button and watching that little dancing circle spin knowing that it is gone to cyber space. You and upsi and anon comment writers step up and away from the crowd of people that for what ever reason shrink back like the shy ones at a sock hop. And you give a voice to the voiceless. Others not so strong can be that way vicariously through you. OK I am rambling. Maybe you should cut this.LOLOLOLOL
@ Anon - I caught the dig in that opener about the distance s/he's travelled, too. La-dee-da - I used to be so desperate for validation/visibility like you lowly haters, but I've come SO FAR, it breaks my heart to see you stuck where I used to be - here, catch up!
By the time I hit the words "you must let go" I was in an uproar. (I'm going to call this commenter a female for ease, though I'm not sure that's what we're dealing with.) Oh, so she's not infectious, only her poisoned family? Her mental tricks have elevated her beyond mere human emotion? So skilled is she in mind control that she can witness negative occurrences and feel only "good" things? Sounds like an emotional-amputee trying to sell amputation to perfectly able-bodied (and able-spirited) folks. Go ahead, cut off your so-called "negative" feelings - why not bet on all good experiences while you're at it, and have no plan in place for danger? La-dee-fuckin-da, lady!
We're such ungrateful wretches for not recognizing what a HELPFUL approach she's got here - bathe yourself in light, it's just the cleanse you need!
"That sounds like it was written by an 8 legged sea creature." I'm dying here! LMAO!!!
Q, I have to agree with you that the theory of the grandparents is all wrong. My evil-ass MN mother was not abused, but spoiled; everything she wanted from her parents, she got. Besides that, there are quite a few of us here who were raised by MN parents, but didn't grow up to be Ns.
My mother was an evil, heartless bitch because she wanted to be one. Being cruel enough that I would stay locked away in my bedroom, pretending to have no needs was a hell of a lot easier for her then having to actually take care of me.
How she treated men was a different story. She would spend all evening cooking for them, serving them dinner when they came home, cuddling up to them, and catering to their every whim. Just so her flavor of the week wouldn't have to come home to a haggardly woman, she'd carefully touch-up her makeup, and fix her hair. All of this took great care and effort, yet she did it anyway on a regular basis because she wanted to.
As far as I'm concerned, the way that she treated me was a choice...Now she can live with the consequences.
@Upsi, After reading your comment, I'm still dying laughing!
"We're such ungrateful wretches for not recognizing what a HELPFUL approach she's got here - bathe yourself in light, it's just the cleanse you need!" Exactly! Why aren't we more grateful for the fact that he/she/it took the time to float down here to bless us mere mortals with so many helpful, and oh-so cleansing pointers?
"(I'm going to call this commenter a female for ease, though I'm not sure that's what we're dealing with.)" Is it possible to assign a sex to an 8 legged sea creature?"
Hey...I think I have successfully rejoined the world of peace and fun! LMAO
I have always despised the company of militant positive thinkers--and I felt this revulsion for them long before I began to understand the reasons for my revulsion.
Seems to me that forced positive thinking--as an ideology or a doctrine-- is no different from other forms of brain-washing. And it has the same effects: confusing and fragmenting one's identity (yes, upsi, like an amputation). And, while the idea of positive thinking as self-talk has its appeal, it rarely has the effect it's supposed to have. Because, we KNOW when things, people and situations are bad, we KNOW what we've experienced, we KNOW when we've been used, damaged or injured ... etc, etc. And, no amount of saying or trying to feel the opposite can drown out that knowledge (though, it may only show itself as a skin rash!). As Mary Gordon said, once you know something, you can't unknow it.
The passage from Alice Miller is wonderful--and truly helpful in a practical way. Unconscious hate is dangerous, yes. But conscious hate is helpful, healing--and morally correct--because it is like a laser beam. It is focussed on the bad thing, not on innocents. And, while it's true (at least I think it is--perhaps others will disagree) that hate hurts the hater, I think this is also part of healing. Hate hurts the hater because it is a pain reaction, and like any other pain reaction, it's a signal--a real, physical signal--that something has gone wrong, that something needs our attention. Also, if it's permitted, and conditions are good and supportive over time, there will be a resolution. The pain will stop, or lessen.
But, all these imperatives ... you MUST let go, forgive, see only this, ignore all of that .. this command to affix ribbons and sparkles and rainbows to what amounts to a pile of shit ... well, these efforts can only interfere with and delay that resolution.
When I meet people who have been through abusive horrors with malignant people, and they get all blank in the face and vaguely philosophical about being full of forgiveness about what they've lived though, I feel slightly afraid of them. It's not that I expect them to be throwing another log on the fire of their hatred, or still suffering as if it were a fresh experience, but it's their ... I dunno ... their misty (and superior) untouchable-ness that sends a chill through me. Can others relate to this? To wanting to hear some word of outrage, even if years of healing have made that outrage cool to the touch?
Oops. Mary Gordon didn't say that. Must give credit where it's due: it was Anita Brookner who said, "For once a thing is known it can never be unknown."
Hold it! Wait-PLEASE! Gotta get my Barn Boots it's getting DEEEEPPPP here, never mind the familiar stink of MN BS.....OK, thanks.....got one on....no luck with the other..... My, my, my....caught you a LIVE ONE! LMAO! PEEEEEAAAAACE, BAY-BEE! LUVVVVVV, BAY-BEE! You be, like, SSSOOOOOO.....FLYYYY! Yeah AAnon, you sure have "traveled such a distance" you've left the world of reality-so here's some cyber antipsychotics that ought a rock your world, sweet-stuff. If nothing else it will aid you in your "desperate search" to get yo head outta yo ass and join the land of the living as opposed to having to "Pretend you're living in a sci-fi film" which clearly is where you are. Cuz baayyybeee, anyone who can twist Alice Miller on her head sure has to be one psychotic idiot (I'm also passing you kleenex to wipe the drool, it's NOT flattering or good for your over-inflated self image) or one raging MN. And while you're contemplating your belly and "UUUMMMMMM"-ing away, we'll be living our lives here in the real world. Sending you a good hit or two (about Hockey Puck-thass right, with a "P"-size) of Haldol...or if you prefer we can do Thorazine. Lemme shoot ya up-it's quicker and more effective and I'm a really good shot with dart tranquilizer arrows livin' where I do-IRL. Don't worry, I'll take the other ammo I use for rabid animals out of the rifle and use the bow instead. OOOPS! Grabbed the wrong one! Here, lemme try again.....here's some REAL, genuine, Tundra "peace" commin' your way, "sweetie." In your current state left to your own devices, why you're so "lit" you just might levitate so I'm attaching some more sand bags to the very few if any tenuous lines keeping you grounded in reality. Note I've filled them with your fav "stuff:" Bull Shit.
But hey, could you please "evaporate" the 3" of ice under another 3" of sleet under another 4" of snow on my car sittin' out there in the driveway that I probably won't be able to break into until June? Now, THAT would be, in MY reality, a TRUE PUBLIC SERVICE for an Old Widow with an Old Cat here in The Tundra who's enscounsed on the couch with a variety of pins, plates and other hardware stickin' in-and OUT-of my foot? Makes puttin' these boots on a real challenge. Please do it soon if you don't mind. It's suppose to go down to -20+ with 60 mph winds tonight and the cat needs food. Thanx "sweetie!" That'd be my definition of a "beautiful life" right about now. If not, I guess I'll just have to resort to Triple A which I guess isn't the same as this "truly enlightened" commenter....Triple Asshole.
BTW....you sure it wasn't EVERYONE ELSE who changed their addresses, phone numbers and ran for the hills? I mean, after f'n up Alice Miller's work....wow...you seem to have gotten this whole "Hate," MN "tactics" and all things MN, Lisette, HOM ass-backwards so I do believe you have all the credibility of the typical phenomena to which this blog is addressed....as well as the same qualtities.
So please, grab yo pointy tin-foil hat and send those "Evaporating" rays my way. I'd send you a Google Earth map, but what with your enlightened self, I'm sure you won't need it anyway. Just like Santa, I expect an "Evaporating" Miracle will find it's way from your "Enlightened" screwed up brain to my Encumbered car in the drive way. But somehow, I'm not holding my breath-just my bladder from LMAO! And on that note, lemme hobble to the bathroom and take care of business. This ones for YOU, AAnon!
At 71 years old, trust me when I tell you I don't have 'forced' positive thinking :-))- and I accept my award graciously, thank you. It is not often at my age I get to cause just a storm.
I spent probably about 50 years full of hate. It was enough already. As I said in my comment, for better or worse, my life is nice now. You don't have to feel glad for me, but trance-like positive robot, I'm not and if you knew the life I'd led that comment would make you smile too. There's been no warrior out there like I've been :-) and I've still got fight in me, I've earned my happiness.
Morag's second paragraph I find nothing to disagree with, it's spot on and nothing more or less than I'm saying. But she says the pain 'will' stop, I say if the pain doesn't, you may need to take steps to help it stop. I have met survivors of the holocaust (gas camps) and survivors of other types of abuses. They all, like me, went through hate. We 'must' as I said; I encourage the 'hate' when it is there organically, but I perceive it as a stage and if there's no end to it, it will ruin your life. You can allow hate and let it run its course or you can fuel it and become a hater. There is a difference and a big difference. Don't take my word for it, ask the old folk who have a lifetime of it under their belts.
I'm happy you posted my comment in the blog bit so some might stumble across it and it may resonate with them. Whether you would post their comments as well , well we shall see. Either way, I think the internet is very useful, we didn't have all this opportunity to vent or share back in the day and the debate on the question of hate and its source is a useful one I think. I see no reason for any of us to demonise each other, though there will be those that get off on abusive put-downs even in blogs for solidarity of the abused... hmmm. Unlike the MN's we have known we can all handle differing viewpoints, no?
Annoying Anonymous, Thank you for coming back for a bow and accepting - in your deluded mind - what is a prize. Like most narcissists you enjoy attention (negative or positive) and that explains your lurking. I suspect you love causing "storms" wherever you might lurk.
You spent 50 years full of hate?? Looks to me like you're still doing it. Though, I must admit you've graduated to passive-aggressiveness. Congratulations!!! Your mind-bending covert abuse may fly over the minds of other, but not ours. You've still got the fight in you alright. You're still quite happy to abuse others. Your style may have changed, but the abuse remains the same. You've come a long way baby - LAUGH OUT LOUD!!!
It seems to me like you're still on the 'Hate" stage of your life. And when you say, "I encourage 'hate' when it is there organically." You do nothing but contradict yourself. Didn't you say evil lies within others because they were abused?? Didn't you say our character is in question by our association with our abuser? Hmmm. Sounds like blaming the victim to me. You're back-tracking lady, and I ain't buying it. And is it because you're an "old-folk" with a lifetime of it under your belt that we're supposed to buy the crap you're trying to sell? What I've learned about MNs is that no matter their age, they're still full of shit. They never gain wisdom. They don't change.
You're happy I've posted your comment? Yeah. I kinda didn't want to because with all narcs, it's all about YOU. I really didn't want to give you any attention, but I thought we could have some fun MOCKING YOU.
I doubt I'll get any comments in solidarity with your spaced-out, magical thinking view, but believe me when I say, we are NOT in solidarity with you. You abuse the abused. Think about that lady. And, if you can't see the the forest from the trees, you're too tone deaf and delusional for this blog. You haven't imparted one piece of wisdom, except to serve as an example of the type of people EVERYONE should stay the hell away from.
OK, I must say one more thing. The positive-thinking anonymous poster wrote: " If you are still attracting narcissists you must work hard on yourself to saturate your body, mind and soul with love and light."
I do not know if there is any accurate or helpful profile of an adult victim of a narcissist, but I doubt it (it goes without saying that children have absolutely no choice). Looks like just about anybody, weak or strong, dumb or smart, this or that, can meet them and be hurt by them. But, if there is any truth to, say, for example, a certain type of woman "attracting" an MN man, I would say that the above quoted advice, if followed, would be the end of her.
I say this because that was my experience. It was probably BECAUSE I was full of positivity, trust, and willingness to embrace affection and the possibility of sharing love, that I was so attractive to the narcissistic man. He really liked this "love and light." It was an in for him; it did not repel him in the least. If I had been on the lookout for bad behaviour, if I had been more of a negative thinker, it might have served me much better. Maybe.
But, if I had been less trusting/more critical, less full of "love and light" and was still victimized by this man, well, then it would've been because of my failure to be positive enough to ward off evil, right? Funny, one's being victimized seems to always uncover some fatal flaw, no matter which way you slice it, real or imagined.
So, squishy advice like this (“saturate your body, mind and soul with love and light”), whether well-intentioned or delivered like a biblical commandment, is not only useless, but actually quite insulting.
And, always, always, unsolicited advice is an act of aggression.
Sigh. And once again, falling back on the "Age Equals Wisdom" fails spectacularly. I really don't care what survivors you met-institutional abuse and annhilation is NOT parental abuse and annhilation. Nor is it "helpful" to pontificate or hide behind some very transparent agenda-your "storm." Happy now? Who designitated YOU to define "happiness" or how one might attain your obviously very self-satisfied, self-absorbed "levitation?" To tell Lisette or anyone else their NORMAL responses to abuse are some how abnormal? Yeesch. A bit of an ego problem, eh? Your age does NOT buy you credibility, from one Elder to another.
Of course you're happy to see your comment posted. Just another form of supply. Suck it up, "sweetie." I found your comment extremely offensive, self-aggrandizing and patronizing as hell. It's like dealing with the "religion door-to-door salesmen" types: Simply being polite and saying "No thank you" does NOT penetrate because it's all about THEIR agenda and they won't leave until you threaten to let your dogs out or call the cops.
OK, you've had your 15 seconds of "fame." Buh-bye.
Hello 71-year-old Anonymous. I want to respond to some of what you wrote above, and also again to your first post, but I don't have the time to be thoughtful right now (plus my daughter wants her computer back!). I will return tomorrow.
If your blog post comment resonates with anyone, it will be one of your fellow narcissistic trolls. The condescending tone of your post is not one that will ever be appreciated by any legitimate readers here.
My mother is a few years younger than you, and is as evil and self-righteous as they come, so playing the age card isn't going to cut it with me either. Since I am now 100% certain that you are a narc troll, I'm going to say that you are full of it: More than likely your life it quite dull. With your unsolicited advice, and egotistic attitude in general, you've driven everyone away, so you feel empty and inside. Awwww...Little short on supply lately? I'm sure that's why you came here. Perhaps for now, you got off on causing a bit of a "storm", much like you do everywhere you go, but it's only temporary. Believe me, you really aren't that important to us.
@Morag, I had a similar experience for what I believe to be similar reasons, so I'm with you 100% on that one.
@Lisette, I love the way you tell it like it is!!!
To 71 year old Anonymous: I suggest that you go and align your Third Eye with your Arse Chakra and suck on a piece of saccharine coated rose quartz. And then indulge in a bit of Tantric Masturbation as a means of launching yourself on a one way astral journey as an Ikea sideboard.
Gawd I love being around people that "get it." I'm not 71 but I'm getting old enough that no one can credibly pull the age card on me any more. From the last post from Lisette. A true malignant narcissist can inspire the hatred of the most peace loving of us. To the world at large I am as I ever was. A good old boy that ought to push away from the beer tap a little earlier than he does. But to my MN mother I do hate, have hated. and will do nothing but hate her forever more. What she took from me and my sister can't be replaced with money. She took my father. Ruined my family. Wrecked the marriages of both of us. Stole any real peace of mind we will ever have. Let me wallow in my hate for her. It's the only inspiration she ever instilled in me.
An MN with Alzheimer's isn't too much different than a 31 yo. with all their MN shit intact.....reminds me of your earlier post Lisette on how they DON'T get better with age....just more entitled (if posible) and more over-bearing yet. The proof is right here in black and white-as if we needed it. This old lady looks like the MN fool she truly is. When the moon is in the seventh house and Jupiter aligns with Mars you KNOW you're in the world of MN wackos and nasties who twist their "enlightment" into some parody and spin theories full of holes-just like their heads. Yep, I'll be sure to spend my very ordinary busy days that involve reality sittin' around "doing affirmations constantly." uh huh. I'll target and flame every MN that treads in my way and dares to try to bull shit me. The expresssion "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle 'em with bull shit" applies to every last MN I've encountered. This one is no exception....except we've got your number. Betcha didn't expect a bunch of "Storm Chasers" with a ton of experience with people just like YOU. Get a life-and get out of ours. You're beyond busted at this site.
To Emma and all. I just left a support group chock full of the healing chakra saccharin quartz suckers. That spirit of healing crap is about a molecule thick, and lasts a nano second if you say the smallest thing that questions their position. I lasted about as long as I did when I started hitting on women in a lesbian bar in San Diego. At least the gay girls tossed me with good cause. I was being an ass in their territory. All I did on the ACON site was question why they alternate between broadcasting the most down trodden vibe I have seen, and then suddenly bursting into songs from the musical Annie. Tomorrow. Tomorrow. Our N's will love us tomorrow. N's love isssssss a day aaaaaaaaaway. Not even my words. I was very diplomatic. I was accused of spewing vitriol. And it was them that ramped it right up to hate.
I don't think she's a narcissist. For one, she knows you're making fun of her and is kind of joking about accepting the award so I don't think she's a narcissist or deluded.
Lisa, Obviously I disagree with you. The first comment written by this person is nothing but an abusive put-down. And they must be deluded to submit it to a blog thinking it would be received as something positive, and or supportive. The fact that this person came back to "graciously" accept their prize for this act of aggression proves once again just how aggressive they are. This person clearly lacks the ability to introspect, and has gained no insight whatsoever in how their words and actions are perceived. In this person's deluded mind they said nothing wrong, and actually think the comment may resonate with some. I don't care if the abuse comes slyly packaged in a ra! ra! yay team spirit.. it's still abuse. This person doesn't have an ounce of empathy, blames the victim, and relates to everyone from above. Smells like a narcissist to me. I could go on, but I think all the comments nail it down. Maybe you could try and nail down your position. As it stands right now, it's nothing less than flimsy.
I wrote, yesterday, that I wanted to come back to comment, but I’m not sure that I have anything to add, about the offending post, that hasn’t been said already in many ways.
Except on the subject of hatred: while Alice Miller’s discussion on conscious hatred as a natural and useful emotion really makes a lot of good sense to me, and while my own experiences of hatred (up to this point) conform to her model (i.e., when I’ve allowed myself to fully feel the hatred, to ruminate on it, even to allow myself spontaneous revenge fantasies, the hatred has tended to fade slowly away), I can’t say, with any certainty--I wouldn’t dare to--that this would work for everyone in every situation.
Anonymous, you mentioned being full of hate for 50 years, and you mentioned friends who have survived the holocaust and other extreme abuses. I know people like that, too; my own grandparents were victims of the Nazis (though not of concentration camps). My grandmother rarely talks about her experiences, though when she does, she spits out the word “injustice,” while my grandfather, who used alcohol to cope, quite frequently revisited his terrible memories and losses, and never failed to express his hatred toward those responsible.
How people deal with their hatred, whether they feel it and work through it, or stay stuck in it, or turn to New-Age ideas, or fuel its fire, or just outright deny it (amputate it), would depend on so many important factors. And, while I do think Miller’s argument is sound, it also seems clear that, sometimes, the hatred, that pain response, is just going to be there, to at least some degree, for good. Forever. And, if it is there forever--like I think it was for my grandfather, for example--it’s not really for me to say to him, if he were still alive: “you must let this go! Forgive! Love!” or to suggest that he simply visualize the evaporation of those evil people (he probably DID visualize, without anyone’s suggestion, and whether he wanted to or not, all sorts of things being done to them ...).
And, so, back to the central point. You are saying, Anonymous, that you have found a way to deal with your hatred, to free yourself from it. Fine. What the people here are reacting to--and here I am just re-iterating--is not only your particular method of coping, which has elements of magical thinking in it. It’s also the way this magical thinking can and does get used to blame victims (no matter how seemingly kind the words are, they are recognizable as a variety of psychological abuse). It’s also the condescending way you swooped in, and offered un-asked-for advice. It’s the way you elected yourself--it’s in your tone, your patronizing word choices, your imperatives--as the one with the secret, the key, the right way to think and feel about injustice.
Morag, Thank-you for all your comments, and for articulating so well your thoughts on the subject at hand.
In your comment above you wrote:
"It’s also the condescending way you swooped in, and offered un-asked-for advice. It’s the way you elected yourself--it’s in your tone, your patronizing word choices, your imperatives--as the one with the secret, the key, the right way to think and feel about injustice."
This is the piece that struck me as a red flag of a disordered personality. I don't believe normal people behave this way (so superior)... particularly normal people who have been abused by MNs. But, I do know malignant narcissists who behave this way.
Does this Annoying Anon have a blog? I'd like to go read it. Before you blast me, I was abused by a hateful MN. But when you fight dragons long enough you become a dragon. And I do not want to in the end just be a hateful shrewish beyotch who can only focus on her own pain and victimization, which is what the original MN did.
"This person doesn't have an ounce of empathy, blames the victim, and relates to everyone from above. Smells like a narcissist to me."
That phrase, "relates to everyone from above," is solid gold. That is exactly what I was getting whiffs of, thanks for putting words to it. I'm very sensitive to this particular aspect of narcs, growing up in a perpetual one-down position, and it is usually a very reliable sign of a lack of empathy (among other things).
If we are going to quote writers we need to get it right and credit them. Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. Friedrich Nietzsche What comes to mind for me is a scene from Forrest Gump. When Jenny and Forrest are walking by the house she was raised. She starts throwing rocks and breaking windows and bouncing them off the walls. Forrest said. Sometimes, I guess there just aren't enough rocks.
Upsi, I too am sensitive to the narcs relating from above. My back goes up... almost instantly. Everyone is an inferior to the narcissist, and I'm not havin' it.
q1605, Thank you for the Forrest Gump scene. That Forrest was a wise one. He didn't have an ounce of hate in him, but he knew injustice when he saw it.
Huh, to me, her comment seemed such an odd puzzling combination of beliefs that seem typical of a thirteen year old, though expressed with the vocabulary of someone older--it just came across, overall, as very odd. Then she claims to be 71. I sure hope not. --quartz
Anon. If the poster is a narcissist....narcissist do not generate much in the way of normal behavior from within. In a social setting they are always watching others for cues on how to act and what to say. In the absence of these cues they are lost. Writing is a solitary endeavor. No cues or clues for guidance. You see the disorder within the disorder. This is what they are. It is the closest any one will ever get to the question of what the fuck go's on in that head of theirs. Nothing.
As I read through the comments I start thinking maybe you/me/us guys are being a little rough on her. Then I read her comment over again and think better of it. "Pretend you are in a science fiction film and your family who you once loved have been infected by the evil aliens, you pour over the 'evaporation' powder and they disappear in a circle of light." Really? I'll have some of what she's been having.
For me it wasn't so much about the airy, fairy, rainbows and unicorns crap the comment came wrapped in. It was more about the abusive put-downs, backhanded compliments, blame, judgement, superiority, and boundary busting intrusiveness etc. etc. that she "thought" she could disguise in new age narc speak.
I mean, check this out:
"So though this blog does a wonderful service, and honestly, thank you again, at some point you must save yourself and leave it to rejoin a world of peace and fun, and love and joy where you are not hating anyone or getting vengeance on anyone but where you are (what they can never be), free."
"Good luck sweetie and all other survivors. We can do it and 'do it' means loving life again, re-establishing a spiritual belief in 'Good' however you name it, and letting go COMPLETELY both externally and internally of evil, and that includes THEM and you let go by keeping your focus on good, writing about good, talking about good, loving a man/woman who is good, working on projects that help the world and saying to yourself, 'I matter, my happiness matters, this is my world too and it provides me with happiness."
It's transparent grabage. It's abuse wrapped-up in ribbons and bows. That to me is far more sinister than someone being blatantly verbally abusive. This person is a fraud, a con, a manipulator. People who are passive-aggressive are LIARS. They are trying to "appear" to be the exact opposite of what they are. They are sneaks, and snakes. I've seen it a million times before with every MN. I know better than to buy what she's trying to sell.
Q, as one of your readers put it in a comment on your blog:
"As ACoNs we have laser-accuracy BS detectors. We've had all the plays "played" throughout our lives, trained by the very best of the worst."
This all falls into upsi's point from her Alice Miller quote. Once something is known it can't be unknown. This all runs deeper then daily affirmations can cure. I am worthy. I am lovable. I deserve to love and be loved. And what kind of time will I do for throttling my mother?
"That to me is far more sinister than someone being blatantly verbally abusive. This person is a fraud, a con, a manipulator. People who are passive-aggressive are LIARS. They are trying to "appear" to be the exact opposite of what they are. They are sneaks, and snakes."
This is exactly what pissed me off about the post of Annoying Anonymous. The covert (or so she thought) little digs at Lisette, and all of the rest of us, make my skin crawl. This is exactly the type of shit that my MN mother is so good at.
Personally, I would be more comfortable with a comment that accused us all of being a bunch of losers who can't let go of the past long enough to bask in the light. At least then it's a direct comment sans all of the ribbons, bows, and other b.s.
Anon, This is a comment (from another post) from a self-proclaimed MN.
"my god u people r completely paranoid.i bet ur all conspiracy theorists as well. just live a little.i do and as a lifelong malignant narcissist i can only say that ur bleeding hearts prove us right every time."
I thought it was pretty funny. At least they were being honest. It's far less evil than the covert shit. Makes me doubt they are really a MN. Probably just a MN poser.
Lisette, That comment was fairly amusing, but I highly-doubt that this person really is a MN. In their minds they are perfect, and everything would be great if everyone else just did what they were commanded to do! Even if they thought they were flawed, they certainly wouldn't want to admit it to anyone else. Of course there are exceptions to the rule - there is a fairly well-known N with his own books and website. Guess he's getting off on teaching us lowly non-disordered people how to deal with people like him!
I've dealt with my fair share of Ns over the years, and I have yet to have any one of them admit that's what they are. What about you? In order for a person to want to pose as a MN, I would assume that there is some other serious mental illness going on...maybe borderline personality disorder or something along those lines.
Anon, From my experience no N would admit any flaw, let alone a PD. MN sister stalked me on N blog(s) for quite a while. So she got a lot of reading in on the subject, plus she saw things I wrote about her. Her reaction was this, "Why do you expect me to act a certain way?! Why can't YOU just be complaisant?!" In her majesty's eyes nothing is wrong with her. I am at fault for being disobedient, and unwilling to accept her behaviour and abuse.
I think Lifelong malignant narcissist was just your everyday troll. Probably goes from site to site announcing that he/she is what everybody is talking about. Looks like a kid wrote the comment.
I have known my own family - all were narcissists. I was born with the odd gene. I resisted and tried to save one younger sister - so I thought. I went through a bad marriage to sociopath - and asked her for help only to discover she was in collusion with him - and tried to blackmail me for money so that he would not be given my emails to her. She sent them (being selective) to my family and close friends lie after lie. She kept my money, my clothes, furniture etc. She fooled me into thinking she was there for me. It was all a lie. She's is an LPC Counsellor newly set up in Brownsville Texas only since January 2012. ! Beware - she is dishonest and will use you, threaten you and steal from you. She is a sociopath. I feel sorry for anyone who comes in contact with her. She chose that career SOLELY TO MANIPULATE PEOPLE. SHE IS EVIL AND COMES FROM LAGUNA VISTA TEXAS!!!!!!
If someone admits to having any sort of flaw other than a generic "no one is perfect" toss off, I would question them being disordered. Which doesn't preclude someone being a dick. It is not the same thing. PD's are flaw blind. They are so unable to see themselves as flawed, that they can't even fake conversational self deprecating humor. Even if this subterfuge would ultimately favor their goal of conning a victim. It literally does not compute. The wiring required for them to turn their obsessively judgmental and jaundiced eye back on themselves is not there. Implying they are less, gets you the same look a cow gives as it chews it's cud. They don't know, that they don't know.
Lisette--I don’t know what the heck I really think until I can share it with others. So, the thanks goes to you for providing a springboard with your own thoughts and with this space where others can share theirs.
q1605 wrote: “As I read through the comments I start thinking maybe you/me/us guys are being a little rough on her. Then I read her comment over again and think better of it.”
Me, too! As I read the comments, and began to feel that the censure was becoming too severe, I had to go back more than once to read the annoying comment--carefully--to make sure I was getting an accurate reading. I also had to focus in on the words, on the verbal behaviour, while trying to avoid a mental picture of who this person might be in the flesh--how she would appear if she were speaking to me directly. I needed to avoid imaging the real person, because she (her written words) brings to mind real, face-to-face people--not only narcissistic people--who have covertly condescended to me, and insulted me, in a very similar way. But, when this happens in actual physical space, in “real time,” it’s so much more difficult to recognize! There’s all that non-verbal stuff, like warmth of tone, kind smiles, or even pats on the shoulder, that interfere with and confuse the real message.
So, here we have the advantage of the words being recorded, open to analysis, without those pesky nonverbal cues and also without that natural sympathy that people (usually) show to one another in face-to-face interactions ... and, yet, still ... well, speaking for myself, there is STILL that difficultly, on an emotional level, in “reading” the message. Again, speaking for myself, there’s that urge to extend the benefit of the doubt, to entertain the possibility that the annoying comment is an error in judgement, an error made under the influence of new-age or magical thinking. In other words, the temptation to see it all as a well-meaning--but mistaken--position. Part of this difficulty in decoding, I think, is that her style, her annoying approach, is a VERY common one (not necessarily a marker of a personality disorder, in my opinion, but of a cultural problem that affects personal thinking). I mean, it’s practically the American (also Canadian) way of dealing with all negative emotion! I’m thinking now of Barbara Ehrenreich’s book Bright-sided ...
Anyway, I’m really glad that you brought up this moment of doubt you had, q1605. This kind of doubt is one of the central problems that empathetic and thoughtful people have when trying to defend themselves against toxic personalities, messages and ideas. I think it’s important to stay aware of it because this kind of doubt, while it can keep us compassionate and open to our own and other’s mistakes, can also be our undoing. Couldn’t I even say that that’s what at issue in ALL these discussions here about narcissistic abuse?
Morag, You've raised some really good points, and they are ones I've been considering in light of the annoying comment. I'm going to try and address these points in my next blog post. So thank-you for bringing these things up. Being aware of narcissistic abuse while it is occurring is what's at issue here. We need to be very observant of the verbal and non-verbal cues of these master manipulators, as well as our gut feelings, and natural reactions to interacting with them.
Yes, being aware "while it is occurring" is the thing--the really challenging thing. For so many of us, I think, this involves a steep learning curve, even when we've already taken steps toward psychological self-defence by removing ourselves from those who have hurt us, by reading the books, visiting the blogs, writing and conscientiously debating, etc.
If it were ONLY about ditching our very own toxic parents, spouses, lovers, bosses or friends, and, that accomplished, dusting off our hands, what a tidy little package that could be! But, abuse is freaking ubiquitous. Practically "normal."
Yeah, clearly, there's a lot involved--in our minds and in our guts--in staying aware. I look forward to your future post on this topic!
Cosmic Girl, Annoying Anonymous is not in denial of the damage her mother has done to her sister. She clearly states that her MN mother infected her sister, and her sister has turned into a carbon copy of her mother. Malignant narcissism is a CHOICE. So no denial there. What AAnon seems to be in denial of is REALITY(she 'killed' her family with evaporation powder). She may also be in denial of her own narcissism and passive-aggressive motives. So let's just scrap that from the equation, and focus on the first part of what you believe is Annoying's "true" intentions.
You wrote:
"Whoever Annoying Anonymous is, I believe they either truly want to encourage everyone to embrace a better life and not feel the damage."
First off, who says we're not embracing a good life? Just because we write about our experiences with our MN parents and let it all out - which by the way is fantastic, to be validated and supported - is not exclusive to livin' the good life. I find that remark "presumptuous" and rather ignorant. You're telling people that they need/should have better lives. You are actually placing yourself above the rest of us, and judging our lives, that you know nothing about.
Second, you're suggesting that we "not feel" the damage. That's really interesting to me. That's something right out of the "malignant's" handbook: DON'T FEEL! Narcissists don't have normal human feelings, they fake them, so I guess they think feelings are a "choice." But normal people know feelings just are, and they are neither right or wrong. It's what makes us HUMAN. Normal people "embrace" their feelings and work through them. What's dangerous is denying them. If you get burned, you're going to "feel" burned, if you don't then there's something wrong with you.
I find your comment very suspicious. While hiding behind the voice of annoying anonymous you told ACoNs, and others effected by narcissistic abuse to: Stop feeling, and get better lives.
You're the perfect example of what this whole blog post is all about: observing narcissistic abuse in action.
Cosmic Girl, I can't put this any better than Morag did: Unsolicited advice is considered an act of aggression. Who asked Annoying Anonymous for her opinion about living a better life? Lisette happens to be a highly-intelligent, very articulate woman; if she wanted advice on how to lead a more fulfilling post-MN life, you can be assured that she would have written a lovely post on the topic, and ASKED for feedback.
I'm not even going to get into every reason that the comment of Annoying Anonymous was so offensive; if you're interested, I'd suggest that you take the time to read some of the previous comments.
I'm curious about what your connection to the "narcos" that are written about here. Based on your comment, I would say that you probably aren't an ACoN.
Cosmic Girl, I find your comments dubious because the first one you left under the blog post "The Narcissist's Crazy Projections" you said you were NEW to the blog, and at your intitial purging phase. This comment was closely followed by another comment from you (under the blog post "The Narcissist's Shock Tactics") where you dispensed advice. I never posted the comment, but have included it below. Like Morag put-it: Unsolicited advice is considered an act of aggression. I just wonder about your intentions. Are you here to advise others? Or, can you relate? And what exactly is your "narco" connection? I'm not wholly self-serving in a weird way, I'm just trying to protect the blog from other MN posters that you bear a striking resemblance to. Maybe I've misunderstood you. I don't know. As it stands, your comments concern me.
Cosmic Girl said... Best advice I've heard yet. If people confuse you or have unstable or unpredictable reactions...Run. If you feel hyperaware or intense tremblings around someone---I know we all can get that when getting involved with someone we are attracted to during the start phase of a relationship, but if you feel like you are doubting your intuitions---do not doubt to negative impulses. If these people are co-workers be ever more vigilant and strategize carefully without arousing too much attention from them. Stroke their weak false selves at the basest level---Coddle the infant within and never reveal any personal or even work vital information to them. The worst thing that you can do is ever letting it be known you are involved with or interested in somebody who shows the slightest interest in return. It makes them feel unworthy and more hatred of you, so the danger of being targeted increases. If you are suspicious even only slightly of being in the presence of a Narco, do not show any signs of happiness or love of even a same sex friend. Separate your emotional life entirely from anyone who exhibits interest in you but gives nothing back and has manic swings and be aware of a person's point of vision when they speak to you. Narcos shift their gaze often. More often than not when they are lying or trying to manipulate when they shift their gaze down to the right. They with lift it back and try to penetrate your soul with their hypnostare as to daze you. The eyes are the gateway to the soul. Its why many Narcos do not look you in the eye until they strike
"Wow, this post excited a lot of interest rather quickly. I'm a spiritual mumbo-jumblist myself, but I try to keep it in check with most people. Whoever Annoying Anonymous is, I believe they either truly want to encourage everyone to embrace a better life and not feel the damage or they are preaching out of need to themselves in denial of the damage his/her mother has done to her sister. Two cents worth. I did not read everyones response. I hope I'm not redundant."
My comment (two above) was written before I received the two comments above that from Cosmic Girl. I have no control over the order, as Blogger posts them according the time they come in. So now I would like to respond to Cosmic Girl's last two sign out comments.
First off, Cosmic Girl has her own blog that's why there's the blogger logo beside her name. Is Cosmic Girl Annoying Anonymous? Is Cosmic Girl the "Anonymous" poster who wondered if Annoying Anonymous has her own blog (because she would sure love to read it)? Who can say. This is the internet so deception reigns supreme. In any event, Methinks Cosmic Girl is Annoying Anonymous' cosmic twin.
SUDDENLY, after very lenthy comments, she just woke-up and doesn't need cyber "commiserates." Wow! What a change of heart from those first few comments - that I have stored. Second, Cosmic TELLS me to start writing about politics and culture, and close the book. Hmmm. Sounds like Annoying Anonymous to me. Yet, she contradicts herself and says, "I am not telling you how not to feel. I am telling you to feel in a good way and direct all that energy into something constructive!!" Long story short, Cosmic is telling me HOW TO FEEL and WHAT TO DO. And SUDDENLY my blog isn't constructive anymore. Apparently it was in the first few comments she made, but it isn't now. Didn't Annoying Anonymous tell me the exact same thing?? Yeah. They both like to tell complete strangers how to feel, and what to do. Bossy, bossy, bossy.
My guess is Cosmic Girl IS Annoying Anonymous (the timing is spot-on) and she is also Anonymous who asked if Annoying had a blog. It's sad really. Really sad.
Farewell crazy one, nice try and all that... here's some cyber evaporation powder comin' your way!
I never could imagine such an innocuous post would even invoke a response yet I was hotly offended since I have not understood what was so offensive to Lisette who I totally respected for her opinions and articulate writing. No, I am not a Child of a Narcissist. You get to a point rather quickly in an online circumstance whether to care or not. I do not know any of you. I want the best for everyone. Truthfully, I do not need cyber "commiserates" anyway. I just woke up. Lisette, you are a clever and bright girl. Start writing about politics or culture. Close the book. I am not telling you not to feel. I am telling you to feel in a good way and direct all that energy into something constructive! (Yes, I need to say that to others ciz I need to hear everyday myself. True. Positive projection is not bad) I love my friends for shaking me and saying you can get back to yourself. Maybe you guys who suffered the crap since you were kids have a harder time with this, I understand that, but I only mean well with any of the words I speak.
Posted by Cosmic Girl to House of Mirrors at 24 January 2012 15:30
Deleted Comment by Cosmic Girl Jan 24, 2012 02:46 PM
Ok, look, I'm enflamed here. I am not saying to anyone do not work through their pain. The problem is Ns sterilize. I have cardiovascular, nerve and spinal damage from the stress and violence I endured from my Ns. I do. I have not published that anywhere. I am so god-d offended and am not hiding behind any ones voice. I was trying to be positive. But F that since I see you are not supportive but wholly self serving in a weird way. I am not living a "better" life now but am a fragment of who I was before all this. I'll admit that. I need to hear positive voices not those saying I should not feel or that I even said that when I did not. I want people to scream "feel again" "be fearless" "f them" Thanks.
Note to readers: Normally, I would not re-post deleted comments. But Cosmic Girl said good-bye, and continued to bomb me with comments after the fact (that I have not posted). In these comments, she continues to say bye-bye and challenges me to post them.
It's a case of actions speaking louder than words. Just needed to clarify.
Wow. I'm not surprised she keeps bombing you--Cosmic girl has gone supernova. She's exploding in all directions, so it's hard to tell where she's coming from and where she is going.
I wanted to add more to my last comment, but I was using an iPod, and things got wonky with the teeny-tiny keyboard ...
Cosmic Girl, the exploding star, did more than try to change her position willy-nilly (I’d call it gaslighting if she weren’t so obvious about it). In all that spewing space junk, she managed to say some really aggressive, mean and bossy things. What I noticed is that, just like Annoying Anonymous, she favours the use of imperatives--direct orders--to make her points. But, she’s much, much more overt than the former. At least there was no way to mistake her cosmic aggression; no telescope needed this time--it was plain to the naked eye!
What really struck me personally, is that she used an abusive tactic that my former MN boyfriend used before he--quite seemingly out of the blue--went off on me verbally and grabbed my wrist. Like Cosmic Girl did with Lisette, he got himself warmed up by first saying, “you know, Morag, you’re really a smart woman, but ...” I had such a creeping sense of dread when he said this, that I knew nothing good could follow. While pretending to be kind, he was DEFINING who I am, and getting me ready for more of his definitions of me. Then, of course, he REALLY told me who I was, and gave me direct orders to change, and when I asked him to stop (I asked calmly, being too emotionally stunned to respond with aggression of my own), he grabbed my wrist--and laughed. He was careful not to bruise me (he has a good reputation to protect) but he was letting me know that silence was my best option.
Cosmic Girl’s online behaviour is so similar to my evil ex-boyfriend’s, what with her condescending “Lisette, you are a clever, bright girl” (the warm-up) followed by insults and direct orders to change: “write about this or that instead” and “feel good, not bad” and “close that book.” Disgusting. Like a house cat in a bad mood, these abusers lick the very spot they’re going to bite.
Except, when my cat does this to me, I forgive him.
She seems jealous of your blog and is weirdly trying to guilt you into not competing with her anymore because the mere existence of your blog constitutes automatic competition in her mind.
Her post follows the exact pattern of one I received from my brother when he was questioned about some clearly nefarious doings of his. Like my brother, she first acts the offended victim role and pretends to not understand: "I never could imagine such an innocuous post would even invoke a response yet I was hotly offended since I have not understood what was so offensive to Lisette..." then further on she becomes even more arrogantly insulting, just as my brother also did.
Then she claims to respect you when she is actually behaving competitively aggressive with you: "...and who I totally respected for her opinions and articulate writing."
What is she doing by commenting on your blog in this way, since she says, as though it were some sort of credential, "No, I am not a Child of a Narcissist."
Why is she dictating what everyone should do, since she says, "I do not know any of you."
Why does she say, "I want the best for everyone...I only mean well with any of the words I speak" as if that excuses inappropriate bossy statements to others? My brother would keep saying he 'wanted the best for me' and 'cared about me' in response to my questions about his demeaning, disrespectful and outright illegal behaviors. When I replied that there was nothing caring or beneficial in his behaviors, he just kept repeating the phrases as though they were a magic spell that would surely eventually get me to stop noticing and describing what he was really doing.
Then she admits, in a condescending manner, the reason she sees you as a competitor: "Lisette, you are a clever and bright girl." She then commands you, "Start writing about politics or culture. Close the book," which is code for 'I have weirdly decided I have the magical ability and moral authority to decree that you will just go away.'
My brother would say I was bright, and then demand that I 'not think so much and just live life,' which meant that he wanted me to stop observing and describing his demeaning, disrespectful and outright illegal behaviors.
She says, "I am telling you to feel in a good way and direct all that energy into something constructive!" 'Because I'm the god of the blogosphere and I have decided!' --quartz
I hate to offer up an opinion that may be divisive. But for me, trying to blend those of us that were raised up from the beginning by a malignant narcissist, and those that picked one up along the way, as in a romantic relationship picked up along the way, is like trying to get dogs to act like cats, and cats to act like dogs. This is not to say we can't live and post in harmony. But my observation is that a romantically entangled person breaking free of a narcissist has a really hard knock at the beginning of the break up. They are as lost and more consumed by their sense of getting fucked over than any child of a narcissist. It's way more intense and longer lasting than a normal romantic relationship break up. But as long lasting as it may be, and as intense as it feels in the beginning, they get better much quicker than an Acon can get over their N parents. And when they finally do get better, they want to project their sense of quick dispensation of N abuse on to us. They want to say you guys need to buck up. I know how you feel. It took me years longer to get over my divorce from an N then it should, but I hung in their and I finally broke free. You can do it. Look at me. Thing is you had this experience for only a few brief years and were mind fucked beyond belief. Think about being brought home from birth by one of these people. That every single thing you learned and every adaptation you made to fit in the world for at least 18 years if not more was you bending your psyche around one of these freaks. We do not remember a time when they were not in our ears and heads telling us how to think and what to feel and who's the boss and why it is the way it is. Literally every single thing about us from the ground up was downloaded into our heads by one of these freaks. No thought was exempt. Not one deed from us was outside the scrutiny of the malignant narcissistic. And that was the way it was for every single second of our existence until we went no contact. So after the romantically inclined peck their way out. They tell us it was a long hard road. It was intense. I couldn't see a way through it in the beginning. But I put one foot in front of the other and here I am today. I put one foot in front of the other. Well our narcissist took a sledge hammer and pounded our feet into bloody stumps before we learned to walk.
Cosmic girl sounds like a hormonal 14 year old swimming in a sea of high school biology teachers. If one brushes your arm with the cuff of his shirt, know that this is him wanting you, and him assessing your vulnerabilities as he selects his method of attack. If he calls your name as he takes roll at the beginning of class, don't, whatever you do, don't make a sound. Don't make eye contact. He will steal your voice and penetrate your soul. His hypno stare will leave you dazed. Simply raise your hand and look aimlessly out the window like the last thing on your mind is the thought of his hands on your hips. His strong firm hands. Cupping your small nimble waist in a loving embrace. Stroke their weak false selves at the basest level- With all this talk of stroking and penetrating, I think one of us needs to put a bag of frozen peas down the front of our pants.
I think cosmic girl has some component that attracts narcissistic men and for now being hustled by these upper echelon dudes makes her feel exotic and cosmopolitan. Her presence here on this blog is exactly the commiseration she desires because half the subservient fun in this game is pandering to more mature women to acquire sympathy strokes, while simultaneously proclaiming herself desired enough by men for it to be problematic in her life. She'll self reinforce this loop until it truly does become a problem, and then marry the first guy that comes along after she makes a real commitment to step off the merry-go-round. Oh these boys won't set me free. Poor poor pitiful me
q1605, you wrote: “I hate to offer up an opinion that may be divisive. But for me, trying to blend those of us that were raised up from the beginning by a malignant narcissist, and those that picked one up along the way, as in a romantic relationship picked up along the way, is like trying to get dogs to act like cats, and cats to act like dogs. This is not to say we can't live and post in harmony ...”
I don’t think your opinion is divisive at all. Your post, from beginning to end, is illuminating about the differences between victims of narcissistic parents, and victims of narcissistic partners. I think you are dead right about the likes of Cosmic Girl coming here, as a romantic victim, and arrogantly (and stupidly, abusively) sharing her “wisdom” with people about whom she knows next to nothing.
Your post also got me thinking about my own presence here. Because, yes, I did land here after having my brains scrambled by a malignant romantic partner (and, he wasn’t my first, either--my first MN, that is!). I did join a community especially for women conned by narcissistic men, thinking it would be the best “fit.” But, with all the subtle victim-blaming, co-dependency stuff, and the general sense of “noise” rather than calm thinking, I just couldn’t stand it.
So, I kept reading and kept looking.This blog, as well as a few others (the Continuum, Ns Suck, What Makes Ns Tick) are thoughtful, literate, analytical, humanistic places. There’s so much to learn from these blogs, not only about narcissistic abuse and recovery (the psychological experience), but also, necessarily, about the moral realm--as in, “what are the right and wrong ways for human beings to relate to one another?” and “what, exactly, is evil?”
I hope this doesn’t sound like a defense for Why I am Here. I only want to highlight some of the reasons why romantic victims of narcissists might be attracted to--and benefit from--blogs like Lisette’s (even though that also means that some high-horse, cosmic types--as you illustrated in your post--will squeak through). More important, though, I’d like to add that the suffering of romantic victims may be complicated, and compounded in invisible ways, by a history of childhood abuse and neglect--that is, by factors that may have made them more vulnerable to MN romantic partners in the first place. Grief on top of unresolved grief: this is where I’m coming from ...
... but, because I don’t see my abusive, neglectful parents as narcissists, I know that I must stay aware that there IS a difference, a real difference that you explained so well, so darkly, with this part of your post: “Well our narcissist took a sledge hammer and pounded our feet into bloody stumps before we learned to walk.”
Morag. Do you remember back when you bought something with a rechargeable battery like a cordless drill, or cellphone, how important it was to follow a specific set of steps when charging the battery that first time? How if you didn't charge it carefully following the instruction manual, it would ruin everything about it. It would never hold a charge for near as long as it would had if you had broken it in right. Think of people who meet a NPD later in life as a battery that was broken in according to directions. Your guy is like the neighbor that borrows your shit and leaves it out in the rain. It's a set back. But it can still be cleaned up and be good as new. ACON's are the batteries that were taken out of the box with no regard on how it should be broken in. When we inevitably didn't meet expectations, we were dropped on purpose and left in the rain to motivate us to do better. Which we can't, because the fault doesn't lie with us, but with the person that didn't break us in right.The person that still keeps throwing us on the floor expecting that to knock us into compliance.
I don't have any problem with much of any one. But you will outgrow the need for these kind of sites a lot quicker then we will. And when that time comes, and you realize it all seems a bit silly, just ease out the back. Don't start challenging people just because you got through it quicker. Which you aren't doing. But there are those among us that don't cut people much slack. When Cosmic girl decided she was done. She didn't see why we couldn't be done too.
Very thought-provoking comments for sure...I totally get where you are coming from Q. There is a huge difference between ACoNs, and someone who picked their poison later in life. You could put me in both categories; I had a MN mother, then the first guy that I married was probably a psychopath or something close to it.
I'll tell you the people that I'm leery of - it's the people in relationships with MNs who claim to have had great childhoods. A person with a solid upbringing wouldn't put up with the b.s. of a MN long enough to need to post about it, so the person either is in denial about their upbringing, or has a PD or some other serious mental illness themselves.
Morag, I definitely appreciate your comments; they are always well thought-out and insightful. Whether your parents qualified as MNs or not, it sounds like you had an awful upbringing, and am quite sure that you can relate in many ways. You made such a profound point in saying that the suffering of romantic victims may complicated and compounded by childhood abuse and neglect. You are right on point about this.
I hate to make the distinction. My first wife was as borderline as you can find a person. It totally freaked me out after we divorced and I found out all the stuff she had going on behind my back. So I know this experience is real and as mind fucking as having the ACON thing going. I bought the book "I hate you , please don't leave me" the last year of that marriage to try and figure her out. When I hear someone demonstratively telling others to get over it, it is almost always the romance induced trauma victims. That's all I would ask. It's a given (almost) that you will find your center before the child of a narcissistic will. Just don't hang out with us until you are better, and then start calling us loser's for continuing to wallow in the mire. The funny thing about that book is that I bought it to get a handle on my wife. But I spent more time remarking how it sounds just like my mother than anything else. Who would have guessed the portent behind this book purchase. LOL
Morag, I'm glad you're here, and you're in the right place. It would never occur to me that you would challenge anyone here. From what I've observed, the people who challenge others, blame the victim, and preach fogiveness are usually PD themselves. They don't get it because they lack empathy. It has everything to do with their personalities and nothing to do with their N experience whatever it might be. And we all move along at our own pace, so who's to say that someone who has been through the ringer with a narcissist romantically, will move along any quicker than someone dealing with the reality of N parents. As an ACoN, I have had my fair share of N boyfriends, and in many ways being in a romantic relationship with a N can be more difficult to come to terms with than the one with our N parents. I knew what to expect within my family, I didn't think I would be abused the same way by someone I placed my trust in, outside of the sick system. They definitely re-open all those parental wounds, that's for sure.
Thank you, Lisette and Anonymous at 7:08 pm, for understanding where I’m coming from, and for making me feel so welcome.
q1605: I hear what you’re saying; the battery analogy makes lots of sense. Not all abuse is the same, quantitatively or qualitatively. More than that, you’re saying that the differences lie in WHEN the abuse happens (for instance, those critical periods in a child’s development), for how long it goes on, and also who is doing the abusing. Although I would have to say, to borrow your words, that my own rechargeable battery was not quite “broken-in according to directions,” I do realize, without any minimization on my part, that I don’t have the same demons to wrestle with as ACoNs do. It’s obvious that there are certain aspects of this kind of experience that are going to elude my full understanding--and the same goes for fully understanding the experiences of, say, prisoners of war, or victims of some kind of suicide cult, like the Peoples Temple.
You’re probably correct that some people, like romantic victims, will outgrow the need for support and for places like this blog much more quickly than others. Even so, I cannot imagine finding anything in these discussions “silly,” let alone something to challenge with a “get it over, already!” Lisette is right: those kind of challenges are a failure of empathy. And, not only that, but also a failure to use the opportunity to “grow” more empathy when confronted with something beyond one’s own experiences. I think everyone fails, sometimes, to be empathetic when empathy is required--it’s part of the problem of being all alone with our consciousness, and how difficult it can be to bust through it and connect with others. But, to not try at all, to refuse this kind of work--again, you said it, Lisette: THAT is likely a personality or character disorder.
The people who habitually say “get over it already, write about something else, don’t-worry-be-happy, see only the good in people, forgive”--these people, whether they realize it or not, and whether they are abusers or deluded or both--these people objectify others with their words. Having experienced this kind of objectification over and over my whole life (including recently, when I tried to tell friends about my MN boyfriend, and they just couldn’t quite believe me--he’s so “nice” after all--which apparently means I am not a reliable interpreter of my own experience), I have grown to despise any hint of objectifying, invalidating, minimizing or from-up-above kind of speech. I’m practically allergic to it. In that way, it’s probably safe to say, I have a lot in common with the ACoN people here!
It's impossible to convey subtlety in text. I am doing a thing called fallacy of misplaced concreteness. When someone mistakes an abstract for a fact. I think Lisette is right about Cosmic Girl being disordered. I still hear someone speak and take them at their word. She was so all over the place that she must be skewed. Or high. I could use some of that. It's just the way it all unfolded for me. I was never in a place where I was dealing with both sources of agitation at the same time. I went through a divorce. Got over it. Then later my mother turned on me. I think my mother...I don't see why it gets under my skin the way it does because I had seen her throw every else one under the bus for years. Just never me. But it was like really? I've been through every crazy woman in three counties. Divorced, robbed in court, cheated on, lied to, I think we all know the drill. And to have my mother on the phone to any body that dicked me over speaking to them like that short woman on poltergiest going around saying..all welcome...all welcome. Makes me want to smash her face.
I honesty believe normal people who want to move on, do. They don't linger around acting all superior and telling others what to do. If you're over it, then what the hell are you doing here? If you can't relate to people on this blog or other blogs, then what the hell are you doing here? Oh yeah, they're here to relate from above, and act as our judge and impart wisdom blah blah blah. They're here to continue to make themselves feel better at the expense of everyone else. They puff themselves us, by putting us down. They are motivated by aggression, and their hidden agenda isn't so hidden.
I know why I make a distinction. It's not my nature to go around gauging who is what and why and where and then passing judgement. It really isn't. It's because I keep hanging around sites and getting told their is a distinction. There are sites for women with N mothers. There are sites about women dealing with sociopath boyfriends. I don't tread there because it's stated that it's women only. My normal state of mind would be that if someone made it their mission in life to f you over then come on down. It seems I always find myself getting drawn into debates and splitting hairs over things like this. I don't mean here. Elsewhere. And I have taken this on as my reality. It's not. I have been indoctrinated with it. Thanks Lisette. For bringing me back to my senses.
Seriously. It just doesn't add-up. And you will NEVER get an answer to the "what are you doing here?" question. NEVER. It seems to be the one line that sends these roaches scattering and hiding.
I've had others do that bs to me. Over and over again.They've told me in so many words and actually being straight forward telling me that I'm not a reliable interpreter of my own experiences. They have minimized my experiences with nfoo and other narcs in general.Basically, by saying this they've made excuse for the narcs behavior. Bottom line, these people are so full of themselves and clearly lack empathy.Some were narcs themselves. They think that THEY are the interpreters of others lives and experiences. The "get over it" people I stay away from now. All of these type of people are just a bunch of a holes who lack empathy and are so full of themselves....
“Over and over again.They've told me in so many words and actually being straight forward telling me that I'm not a reliable interpreter of my own experiences.” You, too, eh?
And, sometimes--perhaps you’ve had this as well--it’s with just a look: for instance, you just want to be heard--not to rant or rave or cry--but just for a friend to listen while you try to describe how someone screwed with your head. And then there’s that certain, embarassed shift of the eyes away from you--an unmistakeable gesture that tells you everything you need to know. That they can’t or won’t hear it, even if they are making sympathetic noises while they’re blocking you out. That’s when I realize my mistake, and shut it all down. It’s pointless to continue, sounding like a lawyer, citing evidence in your own defense when you haven’t committed any crime--or worse, like a “too sensitive” or unbalanced person. Blech.
And, yet, we live in a society whose popular psychology urges us to “talk about it” and “get it out” and that tells us not to be ashamed of asking for support. No one seems to talk about the risk entailed in asking for support, or even just an ear. And the risk, of course, is feeling even WORSE than you did before! I like Lisette’s post from July 2011 about the issue of isolation ... how not being heard (or being told to feel a different way) only adds insult to the original injury, or even rivals the original injury in terms of emotional and psychological damage.
Yeah, keeping a tight lid on it--”staying away” as you said, Anonymous--seems the safer option. But, with crazy-making invalidation being so prevalent--it’s ridiculously easy to make others be quiet about their pain--it’s an option that leaves something to be desired.
Morag, yep, have gotten that look to.Made me feel even worse and rejected.What I've been through doesn't matter to them. I won't deal with these types of people anymore. Reality is that society doesn't give a crap.They are very self-centered.Also people don't want to deal with reality because they want to live in a fantasy.This is why they deny the truth of our reality.
Yes--cozy fantasy. It's seems that in a contest of two different realities, the reality with the most practiced denial wins! Which explains why victims themselves often give in, and join the ranks of those who would tell them to just shut up. When a victim violates his/her own reality with denial, at least there's an illusion of safety, strength, agency, choice, etc. The trouble comes when they go around prescribing and/or enforcing the same "cure" for others ...
Even if the reality of the parent's actions are a clear cut case of sociopath behavior, people still don't want to hear it. So we're damned no matter what. People think we are either pussies whining that are mommies and daddies didn't love us enough, or if your parents are crazy like make it into the news crazy they look at us like we are sprouting a second head. So I don't go there. Not in real life.
Damn. That is very well put Morag. We all have our reality of choice, and if yours ain't like mine I don't want to hear about it. Morag, sorry if I came off as inflexible further back. I've been badgered off sites by the people you are speaking of. And cosmic girls prose was a bit nauseating. All the romanticizing of the N. And how he will take your defense's and run. It would have been amusing but for her viciousness in the end. I would love to hear what her ex-boyfriend and that other woman has to say.
q1605--You had an important point to make, and you made that point clearly: having an MN turn one’s life upside down in short order is bad enough, but being “raised” by a malignant-narcissistic-sociopathic parent is a reality very few have experienced.
I can understand--without a sociopathic parent of my own--why you would want the know-it-alls (who don’t know, don’t want to know, or have conveniently forgotten what they DID know), to keep their badgering hands off your reality. They seem to think their hands are healing hands, but, in fact, (as we’ve seen right here, on this blog) their hands are grubby. So, you have a right to defend your own context, and the terms of your own healing--even to the point of inflexibility, if that is what the situation requires!
The thing is, most of us--when it comes to defending our own realities--have had to deal with these badgering, grubby hands on some level. What this means, as far as I can tell, is that we should now have a way, or at least the willingness, to extend that understanding, to stretch it out, toward another person’s reality, even if we have not experienced that particular reality ourselves. That might mean just sitting quietly and listening, rather than dispensing feel-good (insulting) advice--or writing a manic dissertation on a constellation of ill-defined subjects just to (apparently) hear the sound of one's own voice.
Morag.I like to take people on a case by case basis. And I was not affording you that luxury. I was painting you with the same brush as I did Cosmic girl. She was so far over the top that it kind of set me off. And this isn't my blog. My ex wife ran me through a wringer. Long before I knew what NPD was. Despite living in the middle of N central. I wouldn't want to make you feel uncomfortable on my blog, much less on someone else's.
Cosmic Girl needs some Lithium. Apparently on a manic ride she imagines herself Jack(queline) Kerouac with this stream of consciousness crap. Jack was brilliant in many ways; she's a failure in every way. Wish I could find some compassion but Ns don't need any as they've sucked it all and I'm not gonna feed that in any event.
There's only one thing to say to people such as this commenter, and that's "Fuck off".
ReplyDeleteBullshit. This whole comment amounts to "try to erase your feelings and only feel good!" - thanks for nothing, asshole. Meanwhile s/he's mentally annihilating his/her family, evaporating them, and somehow this is progress? What a mindless, hypocritical piece of advice. I just posted Alice Miller's take on hate yesterday, I must have been receiving alien signals to counterbalance such derivative information! Hate does not destroy unless it is denied. Which is precisely what this commenter is prescribing. No thank you.
ReplyDeleteUpsi,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the ass kicking words! What's funny is, after I watched *Enlightened* I received the comment, and then immediately noticed you had JUST posted (within 20 minutes or so) Alice Miller's take on hate. I thought there was definitely something in the air. Thought I might add a link to your blog post if that's ok with you? The article is fantastic. And umm, very timely.
Cheers.
That sounds like it was written by an 8 legged sea creature.
ReplyDeleteProblem with her theory is that most of us knew our grandparents. I knew my mothers mother. She raised me after my mother abdicated.
She was old fashioned and could be irritating, but she was in no way disordered.
My current significant other wonders how I turned as normal as I did knowing the environment I was raised in and I think it can be attributed to my grandmother.
They are fucked up because it's easier and they are lazy. Meet every parental challenge with cruelty. It's far easier than to think of the best way to raise a child.
Just lock them in a room with a sloped floor and roll peas to them under the door.
Parental challenge solved.
Fine with me, the more people exposed to Alice Miller's thoughts, the better! I'll have to tune into "Enlightened," sounds rather riotous!
ReplyDeleteI don't even know where to start with this one!
ReplyDeleteLet me see if I can pinpoint how all of this started. "Ladeedaaa...I dropped off the clothing that I wanted to donate to charity, and I'm done feeding the homeless. I checked on my elderly neighbor, and now I'm bored. Should I read a magazine? Should sew a new dress to donate? No, I got it! I'm going to troll a blog about MNs, then take the time to write a passive-aggressive novel to the author in the form of a comment!!! Way to "focus on good"! LMAO
If you are so happy, joyful, and everything is so great with the MNs, then what the hell are you doing trolling a blog about them? If you spend your days spreading "good" around the world, and you pushed everything "evil" out of your mind, then what is the attraction to a blog about evil-ass MNs?
Does it sound to you as if Lisette, or any of her readers for that matter, need a sermon from YOU on how to deal with a MN? If you really think so, I highly recommend that you read a few more of her posts, and spend a little time in the comments section.
Does is seem to you that Lisette doesn't know how to have fun? Maybe writing her blog is "fun" to her, and what makes it even more fun is when narc trolls try to slide in their take on things. That's when it really gets fun! It's kind of like word-search - we hunt through the backhanded compliments, translate them into the language of a non, and expose them for the world to see!
You're not as smart as you think you are. Truly, you gave yourself away after the first couple of sentences. While giving her your backhanded compliment, you simultaneously vaunted yourself by saying that it GROUNDS you to remember the distance you've traveled. You're suggesting that you're so much further along the healing path than others and we're just sad, pathetic and desperately searching for validation and visibility.
Get a life, you pathetic troll, or in the words of Emma, the previous commenter, "Fuck off."
Anon
Upsi,
ReplyDeleteThanks! Check-out "Enlightened" for sure, it's pretty funny. The humour is nice and subtle.
High Five Anon!! High Fives all around!
ReplyDeleteNow these are comments from people who get it!
***Lisette, thank you for all the work you've put into this blog.***
ReplyDeleteI don't know if this sounds patronizing to you. It kind of does to me. It IS a lot of hard work creating a blog and yours Lisette, is a cut above any I know.
The harder part is deciding how much of ones self one wants to reveal. If it were all about pasting links and cool pictures, this wouldn't be much of a challenge. Mick and Keith put it best.
"If I could stick my pen in my heart
And spill it all over the stage
Would it satisfy ya, would it slide on by ya
Would you think the boy is strange?
It's about getting the nerve to say what you mean, mean what you say, and hitting the publish button and watching that little dancing circle spin knowing that it is gone to cyber space.
You and upsi and anon comment writers step up and away from the crowd of people that for what ever reason shrink back like the shy ones at a sock hop. And you give a voice to the voiceless. Others not so strong can be that way vicariously through you.
OK I am rambling. Maybe you should cut this.LOLOLOLOL
@ Anon - I caught the dig in that opener about the distance s/he's travelled, too. La-dee-da - I used to be so desperate for validation/visibility like you lowly haters, but I've come SO FAR, it breaks my heart to see you stuck where I used to be - here, catch up!
ReplyDeleteBy the time I hit the words "you must let go" I was in an uproar. (I'm going to call this commenter a female for ease, though I'm not sure that's what we're dealing with.) Oh, so she's not infectious, only her poisoned family? Her mental tricks have elevated her beyond mere human emotion? So skilled is she in mind control that she can witness negative occurrences and feel only "good" things? Sounds like an emotional-amputee trying to sell amputation to perfectly able-bodied (and able-spirited) folks. Go ahead, cut off your so-called "negative" feelings - why not bet on all good experiences while you're at it, and have no plan in place for danger? La-dee-fuckin-da, lady!
We're such ungrateful wretches for not recognizing what a HELPFUL approach she's got here - bathe yourself in light, it's just the cleanse you need!
Sounds like my mother.
upsi
"That sounds like it was written by an 8 legged sea creature." I'm dying here! LMAO!!!
ReplyDeleteQ, I have to agree with you that the theory of the grandparents is all wrong. My evil-ass MN mother was not abused, but spoiled; everything she wanted from her parents, she got. Besides that, there are quite a few of us here who were raised by MN parents, but didn't grow up to be Ns.
My mother was an evil, heartless bitch because she wanted to be one. Being cruel enough that I would stay locked away in my bedroom, pretending to have no needs was a hell of a lot easier for her then having to actually take care of me.
How she treated men was a different story. She would spend all evening cooking for them, serving them dinner when they came home, cuddling up to them, and catering to their every whim. Just so her flavor of the week wouldn't have to come home to a haggardly woman, she'd carefully touch-up her makeup, and fix her hair. All of this took great care and effort, yet she did it anyway on a regular basis because she wanted to.
As far as I'm concerned, the way that she treated me was a choice...Now she can live with the consequences.
Anon
@Upsi, After reading your comment, I'm still dying laughing!
ReplyDelete"We're such ungrateful wretches for not recognizing what a HELPFUL approach she's got here - bathe yourself in light, it's just the cleanse you need!"
Exactly! Why aren't we more grateful for the fact that he/she/it took the time to float down here to bless us mere mortals with so many helpful, and oh-so cleansing pointers?
"(I'm going to call this commenter a female for ease, though I'm not sure that's what we're dealing with.)"
Is it possible to assign a sex to an 8 legged sea creature?"
Hey...I think I have successfully rejoined the world of peace and fun! LMAO
Anon
I have always despised the company of militant positive thinkers--and I felt this revulsion for them long before I began to understand the reasons for my revulsion.
ReplyDeleteSeems to me that forced positive thinking--as an ideology or a doctrine-- is no different from other forms of brain-washing. And it has the same effects: confusing and fragmenting one's identity (yes, upsi, like an amputation). And, while the idea of positive thinking as self-talk has its appeal, it rarely has the effect it's supposed to have. Because, we KNOW when things, people and situations are bad, we KNOW what we've experienced, we KNOW when we've been used, damaged or injured ... etc, etc. And, no amount of saying or trying to feel the opposite can drown out that knowledge (though, it may only show itself as a skin rash!). As Mary Gordon said, once you know something, you can't unknow it.
The passage from Alice Miller is wonderful--and truly helpful in a practical way. Unconscious hate is dangerous, yes. But conscious hate is helpful, healing--and morally correct--because it is like a laser beam. It is focussed on the bad thing, not on innocents. And, while it's true (at least I think it is--perhaps others will disagree) that hate hurts the hater, I think this is also part of healing. Hate hurts the hater because it is a pain reaction, and like any other pain reaction, it's a signal--a real, physical signal--that something has gone wrong, that something needs our attention. Also, if it's permitted, and conditions are good and supportive over time, there will be a resolution. The pain will stop, or lessen.
But, all these imperatives ... you MUST let go, forgive, see only this, ignore all of that .. this command to affix ribbons and sparkles and rainbows to what amounts to a pile of shit ... well, these efforts can only interfere with and delay that resolution.
When I meet people who have been through abusive horrors with malignant people, and they get all blank in the face and vaguely philosophical about being full of forgiveness about what they've lived though, I feel slightly afraid of them. It's not that I expect them to be throwing another log on the fire of their hatred, or still suffering as if it were a fresh experience, but it's their ... I dunno ... their misty (and superior) untouchable-ness that sends a chill through me. Can others relate to this? To wanting to hear some word of outrage, even if years of healing have made that outrage cool to the touch?
Oops. Mary Gordon didn't say that. Must give credit where it's due: it was Anita Brookner who said, "For once a thing is known it can never be unknown."
ReplyDeleteMorag
Hold it! Wait-PLEASE! Gotta get my Barn Boots it's getting DEEEEPPPP here, never mind the familiar stink of MN BS.....OK, thanks.....got one on....no luck with the other.....
ReplyDeleteMy, my, my....caught you a LIVE ONE! LMAO! PEEEEEAAAAACE, BAY-BEE! LUVVVVVV, BAY-BEE! You be, like, SSSOOOOOO.....FLYYYY! Yeah AAnon, you sure have "traveled such a distance" you've left the world of reality-so here's some cyber antipsychotics that ought a rock your world, sweet-stuff. If nothing else it will aid you in your "desperate search" to get yo head outta yo ass and join the land of the living as opposed to having to "Pretend you're living in a sci-fi film" which clearly is where you are. Cuz baayyybeee, anyone who can twist Alice Miller on her head sure has to be one psychotic idiot (I'm also passing you kleenex to wipe the drool, it's NOT flattering or good for your over-inflated self image) or one raging MN.
And while you're contemplating your belly and "UUUMMMMMM"-ing away, we'll be living our lives here in the real world. Sending you a good hit or two (about Hockey Puck-thass right, with a "P"-size) of Haldol...or if you prefer we can do Thorazine. Lemme shoot ya up-it's quicker and more effective and I'm a really good shot with dart tranquilizer arrows livin' where I do-IRL. Don't worry, I'll take the other ammo I use for rabid animals out of the rifle and use the bow instead. OOOPS! Grabbed the wrong one! Here, lemme try again.....here's some REAL, genuine, Tundra "peace" commin' your way, "sweetie." In your current state left to your own devices, why you're so "lit" you just might levitate so I'm attaching some more sand bags to the very few if any tenuous lines keeping you grounded in reality. Note I've filled them with your fav "stuff:" Bull Shit.
But hey, could you please "evaporate" the 3" of ice under another 3" of sleet under another 4" of snow on my car sittin' out there in the driveway that I probably won't be able to break into until June? Now, THAT would be, in MY reality, a TRUE PUBLIC SERVICE for an Old Widow with an Old Cat here in The Tundra who's enscounsed on the couch with a variety of pins, plates and other hardware stickin' in-and OUT-of my foot? Makes puttin' these boots on a real challenge. Please do it soon if you don't mind. It's suppose to go down to -20+ with 60 mph winds tonight and the cat needs food. Thanx "sweetie!" That'd be my definition of a "beautiful life" right about now. If not, I guess I'll just have to resort to Triple A which I guess isn't the same as this "truly enlightened" commenter....Triple Asshole.
BTW....you sure it wasn't EVERYONE ELSE who changed their addresses, phone numbers and ran for the hills? I mean, after f'n up Alice Miller's work....wow...you seem to have gotten this whole "Hate," MN "tactics" and all things MN, Lisette, HOM ass-backwards so I do believe you have all the credibility of the typical phenomena to which this blog is addressed....as well as the same qualtities.
So please, grab yo pointy tin-foil hat and send those "Evaporating" rays my way. I'd send you a Google Earth map, but what with your enlightened self, I'm sure you won't need it anyway. Just like Santa, I expect an "Evaporating" Miracle will find it's way from your "Enlightened" screwed up brain to my Encumbered car in the drive way. But somehow, I'm not holding my breath-just my bladder from LMAO! And on that note, lemme hobble to the bathroom and take care of business. This ones for YOU, AAnon!
At 71 years old, trust me when I tell you I don't have 'forced' positive thinking :-))- and I accept my award graciously, thank you. It is not often at my age I get to cause just a storm.
ReplyDeleteI spent probably about 50 years full of hate. It was enough already. As I said in my comment, for better or worse, my life is nice now. You don't have to feel glad for me, but trance-like positive robot, I'm not and if you knew the life I'd led that comment would make you smile too. There's been no warrior out there like I've been :-) and I've still got fight in me, I've earned my happiness.
Morag's second paragraph I find nothing to disagree with, it's spot on and nothing more or less than I'm saying. But she says the pain 'will' stop, I say if the pain doesn't, you may need to take steps to help it stop. I have met survivors of the holocaust (gas camps) and survivors of other types of abuses. They all, like me, went through hate. We 'must' as I said; I encourage the 'hate' when it is there organically, but I perceive it as a stage and if there's no end to it, it will ruin your life. You can allow hate and let it run its course or you can fuel it and become a hater. There is a difference and a big difference. Don't take my word for it, ask the old folk who have a lifetime of it under their belts.
I'm happy you posted my comment in the blog bit so some might stumble across it and it may resonate with them. Whether you would post their comments as well , well we shall see. Either way, I think the internet is very useful, we didn't have all this opportunity to vent or share back in the day and the debate on the question of hate and its source is a useful one I think. I see no reason for any of us to demonise each other, though there will be those that get off on abusive put-downs even in blogs for solidarity of the abused... hmmm. Unlike the MN's we have known we can all handle differing viewpoints, no?
Annoying Anonymous,
DeleteThank you for coming back for a bow and accepting - in your deluded mind - what is a prize. Like most narcissists you enjoy attention (negative or positive) and that explains your lurking. I suspect you love causing "storms" wherever you might lurk.
You spent 50 years full of hate?? Looks to me like you're still doing it. Though, I must admit you've graduated to passive-aggressiveness. Congratulations!!! Your mind-bending covert abuse may fly over the minds of other, but not ours. You've still got the fight in you alright. You're still quite happy to abuse others. Your style may have changed, but the abuse remains the same. You've come a long way baby - LAUGH OUT LOUD!!!
It seems to me like you're still on the 'Hate" stage of your life. And when you say, "I encourage 'hate' when it is there organically." You do nothing but contradict yourself. Didn't you say evil lies within others because they were abused?? Didn't you say our character is in question by our association with our abuser? Hmmm. Sounds like blaming the victim to me. You're back-tracking lady, and I ain't buying it. And is it because you're an "old-folk" with a lifetime of it under your belt that we're supposed to buy the crap you're trying to sell? What I've learned about MNs is that no matter their age, they're still full of shit. They never gain wisdom. They don't change.
You're happy I've posted your comment? Yeah. I kinda didn't want to because with all narcs, it's all about YOU. I really didn't want to give you any attention, but I thought we could have some fun MOCKING YOU.
I doubt I'll get any comments in solidarity with your spaced-out, magical thinking view, but believe me when I say, we are NOT in solidarity with you. You abuse the abused. Think about that lady. And, if you can't see the the forest from the trees, you're too tone deaf and delusional for this blog. You haven't imparted one piece of wisdom, except to serve as an example of the type of people EVERYONE should stay the hell away from.
OK, I must say one more thing. The positive-thinking anonymous poster wrote: " If you are still attracting narcissists you must work hard on yourself to saturate your body, mind and soul with love and light."
ReplyDeleteI do not know if there is any accurate or helpful profile of an adult victim of a narcissist, but I doubt it (it goes without saying that children have absolutely no choice). Looks like just about anybody, weak or strong, dumb or smart, this or that, can meet them and be hurt by them. But, if there is any truth to, say, for example, a certain type of woman "attracting" an MN man, I would say that the above quoted advice, if followed, would be the end of her.
I say this because that was my experience. It was probably BECAUSE I was full of positivity, trust, and willingness to embrace affection and the possibility of sharing love, that I was so attractive to the narcissistic man. He really liked this "love and light." It was an in for him; it did not repel him in the least. If I had been on the lookout for bad behaviour, if I had been more of a negative thinker, it might have served me much better. Maybe.
But, if I had been less trusting/more critical, less full of "love and light" and was still victimized by this man, well, then it would've been because of my failure to be positive enough to ward off evil, right? Funny, one's being victimized seems to always uncover some fatal flaw, no matter which way you slice it, real or imagined.
So, squishy advice like this (“saturate your body, mind and soul with love and light”), whether well-intentioned or delivered like a biblical commandment, is not only useless, but actually quite insulting.
And, always, always, unsolicited advice is an act of aggression.
Sigh. And once again, falling back on the "Age Equals Wisdom" fails spectacularly. I really don't care what survivors you met-institutional abuse and annhilation is NOT parental abuse and annhilation. Nor is it "helpful" to pontificate or hide behind some very transparent agenda-your "storm." Happy now? Who designitated YOU to define "happiness" or how one might attain your obviously very self-satisfied, self-absorbed "levitation?" To tell Lisette or anyone else their NORMAL responses to abuse are some how abnormal? Yeesch. A bit of an ego problem, eh? Your age does NOT buy you credibility, from one Elder to another.
ReplyDeleteOf course you're happy to see your comment posted. Just another form of supply. Suck it up, "sweetie." I found your comment extremely offensive, self-aggrandizing and patronizing as hell. It's like dealing with the "religion door-to-door salesmen" types: Simply being polite and saying "No thank you" does NOT penetrate because it's all about THEIR agenda and they won't leave until you threaten to let your dogs out or call the cops.
OK, you've had your 15 seconds of "fame." Buh-bye.
Hello 71-year-old Anonymous. I want to respond to some of what you wrote above, and also again to your first post, but I don't have the time to be thoughtful right now (plus my daughter wants her computer back!). I will return tomorrow.
ReplyDeleteMorag
If your blog post comment resonates with anyone, it will be one of your fellow narcissistic trolls. The condescending tone of your post is not one that will ever be appreciated by any legitimate readers here.
ReplyDeleteMy mother is a few years younger than you, and is as evil and self-righteous as they come, so playing the age card isn't going to cut it with me either. Since I am now 100% certain that you are a narc troll, I'm going to say that you are full of it: More than likely your life it quite dull. With your unsolicited advice, and egotistic attitude in general, you've driven everyone away, so you feel empty and inside. Awwww...Little short on supply lately? I'm sure that's why you came here. Perhaps for now, you got off on causing a bit of a "storm", much like you do everywhere you go, but it's only temporary. Believe me, you really aren't that important to us.
@Morag, I had a similar experience for what I believe to be similar reasons, so I'm with you 100% on that one.
@Lisette, I love the way you tell it like it is!!!
Anon
To 71 year old Anonymous: I suggest that you go and align your Third Eye with your Arse Chakra and suck on a piece of saccharine coated rose quartz. And then indulge in a bit of Tantric Masturbation as a means of launching yourself on a one way astral journey as an Ikea sideboard.
ReplyDeleteGawd I love being around people that "get it." I'm not 71 but I'm getting old enough that no one can credibly pull the age card on me any more. From the last post from Lisette. A true malignant narcissist can inspire the hatred of the most peace loving of us.
ReplyDeleteTo the world at large I am as I ever was. A good old boy that ought to push away from the beer tap a little earlier than he does.
But to my MN mother I do hate, have hated. and will do nothing but hate her forever more. What she took from me and my sister can't be replaced with money.
She took my father. Ruined my family. Wrecked the marriages of both of us. Stole any real peace of mind we will ever have.
Let me wallow in my hate for her.
It's the only inspiration she ever instilled in me.
An MN with Alzheimer's isn't too much different than a 31 yo. with all their MN shit intact.....reminds me of your earlier post Lisette on how they DON'T get better with age....just more entitled (if posible) and more over-bearing yet.
ReplyDeleteThe proof is right here in black and white-as if we needed it. This old lady looks like the MN fool she truly is. When the moon is in the seventh house and Jupiter aligns with Mars you KNOW you're in the world of MN wackos and nasties who twist their "enlightment" into some parody and spin theories full of holes-just like their heads.
Yep, I'll be sure to spend my very ordinary busy days that involve reality sittin' around "doing affirmations constantly." uh huh. I'll target and flame every MN that treads in my way and dares to try to bull shit me. The expresssion "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle 'em with bull shit" applies to every last MN I've encountered. This one is no exception....except we've got your number. Betcha didn't expect a bunch of "Storm Chasers" with a ton of experience with people just like YOU.
Get a life-and get out of ours. You're beyond busted at this site.
To Emma and all. I just left a support group chock full of the healing chakra saccharin quartz suckers. That spirit of healing crap is about a molecule thick, and lasts a nano second if you say the smallest thing that questions their position. I lasted about as long as I did when I started hitting on women in a lesbian bar in San Diego.
ReplyDeleteAt least the gay girls tossed me with good cause. I was being an ass in their territory.
All I did on the ACON site was question why they alternate between broadcasting the most down trodden vibe I have seen, and then suddenly bursting into songs from the musical Annie.
Tomorrow. Tomorrow. Our N's will love us tomorrow.
N's love isssssss a day aaaaaaaaaway.
Not even my words. I was very diplomatic.
I was accused of spewing vitriol. And it was them that ramped it right up to hate.
I don't think she's a narcissist. For one, she knows you're making fun of her and is kind of joking about accepting the award so I don't think she's a narcissist or deluded.
ReplyDeleteLisa,
ReplyDeleteObviously I disagree with you. The first comment written by this person is nothing but an abusive put-down. And they must be deluded to submit it to a blog thinking it would be received as something positive, and or supportive. The fact that this person came back to "graciously" accept their prize for this act of aggression proves once again just how aggressive they are. This person clearly lacks the ability to introspect, and has gained no insight whatsoever in how their words and actions are perceived. In this person's deluded mind they said nothing wrong, and actually think the comment may resonate with some. I don't care if the abuse comes slyly packaged in a ra! ra! yay team spirit.. it's still abuse. This person doesn't have an ounce of empathy, blames the victim, and relates to everyone from above. Smells like a narcissist to me. I could go on, but I think all the comments nail it down. Maybe you could try and nail down your position. As it stands right now, it's nothing less than flimsy.
I wrote, yesterday, that I wanted to come back to comment, but I’m not sure that I have anything to add, about the offending post, that hasn’t been said already in many ways.
ReplyDeleteExcept on the subject of hatred: while Alice Miller’s discussion on conscious hatred as a natural and useful emotion really makes a lot of good sense to me, and while my own experiences of hatred (up to this point) conform to her model (i.e., when I’ve allowed myself to fully feel the hatred, to ruminate on it, even to allow myself spontaneous revenge fantasies, the hatred has tended to fade slowly away), I can’t say, with any certainty--I wouldn’t dare to--that this would work for everyone in every situation.
Anonymous, you mentioned being full of hate for 50 years, and you mentioned friends who have survived the holocaust and other extreme abuses. I know people like that, too; my own grandparents were victims of the Nazis (though not of concentration camps). My grandmother rarely talks about her experiences, though when she does, she spits out the word “injustice,” while my grandfather, who used alcohol to cope, quite frequently revisited his terrible memories and losses, and never failed to express his hatred toward those responsible.
How people deal with their hatred, whether they feel it and work through it, or stay stuck in it, or turn to New-Age ideas, or fuel its fire, or just outright deny it (amputate it), would depend on so many important factors. And, while I do think Miller’s argument is sound, it also seems clear that, sometimes, the hatred, that pain response, is just going to be there, to at least some degree, for good. Forever. And, if it is there forever--like I think it was for my grandfather, for example--it’s not really for me to say to him, if he were still alive: “you must let this go! Forgive! Love!” or to suggest that he simply visualize the evaporation of those evil people (he probably DID visualize, without anyone’s suggestion, and whether he wanted to or not, all sorts of things being done to them ...).
And, so, back to the central point. You are saying, Anonymous, that you have found a way to deal with your hatred, to free yourself from it. Fine. What the people here are reacting to--and here I am just re-iterating--is not only your particular method of coping, which has elements of magical thinking in it. It’s also the way this magical thinking can and does get used to blame victims (no matter how seemingly kind the words are, they are recognizable as a variety of psychological abuse). It’s also the condescending way you swooped in, and offered un-asked-for advice. It’s the way you elected yourself--it’s in your tone, your patronizing word choices, your imperatives--as the one with the secret, the key, the right way to think and feel about injustice.
Morag,
ReplyDeleteThank-you for all your comments, and for articulating so well your thoughts on the subject at hand.
In your comment above you wrote:
"It’s also the condescending way you swooped in, and offered un-asked-for advice. It’s the way you elected yourself--it’s in your tone, your patronizing word choices, your imperatives--as the one with the secret, the key, the right way to think and feel about injustice."
This is the piece that struck me as a red flag of a disordered personality. I don't believe normal people behave this way (so superior)... particularly normal people who have been abused by MNs. But, I do know malignant narcissists who behave this way.
Thanks again for your words of wisdom.
Thanks to all.
Does this Annoying Anon have a blog? I'd like to go read it. Before you blast me, I was abused by a hateful MN. But when you fight dragons long enough you become a dragon. And I do not want to in the end just be a hateful shrewish beyotch who can only focus on her own pain and victimization, which is what the original MN did.
ReplyDeleteBuy-bye Troll. Go enjoy your "artificially sweetened" Lemon Kool-Aid with your fellow narcs.
DeleteYou should brand your drink of choice "The Original MN."
SILENCE Troll!
DeleteI'm not going to post any more of your asinine "anonymous" comments... so slither off.
"This person doesn't have an ounce of empathy, blames the victim, and relates to everyone from above. Smells like a narcissist to me."
ReplyDeleteThat phrase, "relates to everyone from above," is solid gold. That is exactly what I was getting whiffs of, thanks for putting words to it. I'm very sensitive to this particular aspect of narcs, growing up in a perpetual one-down position, and it is usually a very reliable sign of a lack of empathy (among other things).
upsi
If we are going to quote writers we need to get it right and credit them.
ReplyDeleteBattle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.
Friedrich Nietzsche
What comes to mind for me is a scene from Forrest Gump. When Jenny and Forrest are walking by the house she was raised. She starts throwing rocks and breaking windows and bouncing them off the walls.
Forrest said.
Sometimes, I guess there just aren't enough rocks.
Upsi,
ReplyDeleteI too am sensitive to the narcs relating from above. My back goes up... almost instantly. Everyone is an inferior to the narcissist, and I'm not havin' it.
q1605,
Thank you for the Forrest Gump scene. That Forrest was a wise one. He didn't have an ounce of hate in him, but he knew injustice when he saw it.
Huh, to me, her comment seemed such an odd puzzling combination of beliefs that seem typical of a thirteen year old, though expressed with the vocabulary of someone older--it just came across, overall, as very odd. Then she claims to be 71. I sure hope not. --quartz
ReplyDeleteAnon. If the poster is a narcissist....narcissist do not generate much in the way of normal behavior from within. In a social setting they are always watching others for cues on how to act and what to say. In the absence of these cues they are lost.
ReplyDeleteWriting is a solitary endeavor. No cues or clues for guidance.
You see the disorder within the disorder.
This is what they are. It is the closest any one will ever get to the question of what the fuck go's on in that head of theirs.
Nothing.
As I read through the comments I start thinking maybe you/me/us guys are being a little rough on her. Then I read her comment over again and think better of it.
ReplyDelete"Pretend you are in a science fiction film and your family who you once loved have been infected by the evil aliens, you pour over the 'evaporation' powder and they disappear in a circle of light."
Really?
I'll have some of what she's been having.
For me it wasn't so much about the airy, fairy, rainbows and unicorns crap the comment came wrapped in. It was more about the abusive put-downs, backhanded compliments, blame, judgement, superiority, and boundary busting intrusiveness etc. etc. that she "thought" she could disguise in new age narc speak.
ReplyDeleteI mean, check this out:
"So though this blog does a wonderful service, and honestly, thank you again, at some point you must save yourself and leave it to rejoin a world of peace and fun, and love and joy where you are not hating anyone or getting vengeance on anyone but where you are (what they can never be), free."
"Good luck sweetie and all other survivors. We can do it and 'do it' means loving life again, re-establishing a spiritual belief in 'Good' however you name it, and letting go COMPLETELY both externally and internally of evil, and that includes THEM and you let go by keeping your focus on good, writing about good, talking about good, loving a man/woman who is good, working on projects that help the world and saying to yourself, 'I matter, my happiness matters, this is my world too and it provides me with happiness."
It's transparent grabage. It's abuse wrapped-up in ribbons and bows. That to me is far more sinister than someone being blatantly verbally abusive. This person is a fraud, a con, a manipulator. People who are passive-aggressive are LIARS. They are trying to "appear" to be the exact opposite of what they are. They are sneaks, and snakes. I've seen it a million times before with every MN. I know better than to buy what she's trying to sell.
Q, as one of your readers put it in a comment on your blog:
"As ACoNs we have laser-accuracy BS detectors. We've had all the plays "played" throughout our lives, trained by the very best of the worst."
This all falls into upsi's point from her Alice Miller quote.
ReplyDeleteOnce something is known it can't be unknown.
This all runs deeper then daily affirmations can cure.
I am worthy. I am lovable. I deserve to love and be loved.
And what kind of time will I do for throttling my mother?
The worst part is the deceit. It's how they deceive themselves - not just others - that makes them dangerous. They are people of the lie.
ReplyDelete"That to me is far more sinister than someone being blatantly verbally abusive. This person is a fraud, a con, a manipulator. People who are passive-aggressive are LIARS. They are trying to "appear" to be the exact opposite of what they are. They are sneaks, and snakes."
ReplyDeleteThis is exactly what pissed me off about the post of Annoying Anonymous. The covert (or so she thought) little digs at Lisette, and all of the rest of us, make my skin crawl. This is exactly the type of shit that my MN mother is so good at.
Personally, I would be more comfortable with a comment that accused us all of being a bunch of losers who can't let go of the past long enough to bask in the light. At least then it's a direct comment sans all of the ribbons, bows, and other b.s.
Anon
Anon,
ReplyDeleteThis is a comment (from another post) from a self-proclaimed MN.
"my god u people r completely paranoid.i bet ur all conspiracy theorists as well. just live a little.i do and as a lifelong malignant narcissist i can only say that ur bleeding hearts prove us right every time."
I thought it was pretty funny. At least they were being honest. It's far less evil than the covert shit. Makes me doubt they are really a MN. Probably just a MN poser.
Lisette,
ReplyDeleteThat comment was fairly amusing, but I highly-doubt that this person really is a MN. In their minds they are perfect, and everything would be great if everyone else just did what they were commanded to do! Even if they thought they were flawed, they certainly wouldn't want to admit it to anyone else. Of course there are exceptions to the rule - there is a fairly well-known N with his own books and website. Guess he's getting off on teaching us lowly non-disordered people how to deal with people like him!
I've dealt with my fair share of Ns over the years, and I have yet to have any one of them admit that's what they are. What about you? In order for a person to want to pose as a MN, I would assume that there is some other serious mental illness going on...maybe borderline personality disorder or something along those lines.
Anon
Anon,
ReplyDeleteFrom my experience no N would admit any flaw, let alone a PD. MN sister stalked me on N blog(s) for quite a while. So she got a lot of reading in on the subject, plus she saw things I wrote about her. Her reaction was this, "Why do you expect me to act a certain way?! Why can't YOU just be complaisant?!" In her majesty's eyes nothing is wrong with her. I am at fault for being disobedient, and unwilling to accept her behaviour and abuse.
I think Lifelong malignant narcissist was just your everyday troll. Probably goes from site to site announcing that he/she is what everybody is talking about. Looks like a kid wrote the comment.
I have known my own family - all were narcissists. I was born with the odd gene. I resisted and tried to save one younger sister - so I thought. I went through a bad marriage to sociopath - and asked her for help only to discover she was in collusion with him - and tried to blackmail me for money so that he would not be given my emails to her. She sent them (being selective) to my family and close friends lie after lie. She kept my money, my clothes, furniture etc. She fooled me into thinking she was there for me. It was all a lie. She's is an LPC Counsellor newly set up in Brownsville Texas only since January 2012. ! Beware - she is dishonest and will use you, threaten you and steal from you. She is a sociopath. I feel sorry for anyone who comes in contact with her. She chose that career SOLELY TO MANIPULATE PEOPLE. SHE IS EVIL AND COMES FROM LAGUNA VISTA TEXAS!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteIf someone admits to having any sort of flaw other than a generic "no one is perfect" toss off, I would question them being disordered.
ReplyDeleteWhich doesn't preclude someone being a dick. It is not the same thing.
PD's are flaw blind. They are so unable to see themselves as flawed, that they can't even fake conversational self deprecating humor. Even if this subterfuge would ultimately favor their goal of conning a victim.
It literally does not compute.
The wiring required for them to turn their obsessively judgmental and jaundiced eye back on themselves is not there.
Implying they are less, gets you the same look a cow gives as it chews it's cud.
They don't know, that they don't know.
Lisette--I don’t know what the heck I really think until I can share it with others. So, the thanks goes to you for providing a springboard with your own thoughts and with this space where others can share theirs.
ReplyDeleteq1605 wrote: “As I read through the comments I start thinking maybe you/me/us guys are being a little rough on her. Then I read her comment over again and think better of it.”
Me, too! As I read the comments, and began to feel that the censure was becoming too severe, I had to go back more than once to read the annoying comment--carefully--to make sure I was getting an accurate reading. I also had to focus in on the words, on the verbal behaviour, while trying to avoid a mental picture of who this person might be in the flesh--how she would appear if she were speaking to me directly. I needed to avoid imaging the real person, because she (her written words) brings to mind real, face-to-face people--not only narcissistic people--who have covertly condescended to me, and insulted me, in a very similar way. But, when this happens in actual physical space, in “real time,” it’s so much more difficult to recognize! There’s all that non-verbal stuff, like warmth of tone, kind smiles, or even pats on the shoulder, that interfere with and confuse the real message.
So, here we have the advantage of the words being recorded, open to analysis, without those pesky nonverbal cues and also without that natural sympathy that people (usually) show to one another in face-to-face interactions ... and, yet, still ... well, speaking for myself, there is STILL that difficultly, on an emotional level, in “reading” the message. Again, speaking for myself, there’s that urge to extend the benefit of the doubt, to entertain the possibility that the annoying comment is an error in judgement, an error made under the influence of new-age or magical thinking. In other words, the temptation to see it all as a well-meaning--but mistaken--position. Part of this difficulty in decoding, I think, is that her style, her annoying approach, is a VERY common one (not necessarily a marker of a personality disorder, in my opinion, but of a cultural problem that affects personal thinking). I mean, it’s practically the American (also Canadian) way of dealing with all negative emotion! I’m thinking now of Barbara Ehrenreich’s book Bright-sided ...
Anyway, I’m really glad that you brought up this moment of doubt you had, q1605. This kind of doubt is one of the central problems that empathetic and thoughtful people have when trying to defend themselves against toxic personalities, messages and ideas. I think it’s important to stay aware of it because this kind of doubt, while it can keep us compassionate and open to our own and other’s mistakes, can also be our undoing. Couldn’t I even say that that’s what at issue in ALL these discussions here about narcissistic abuse?
Morag,
ReplyDeleteYou've raised some really good points, and they are ones I've been considering in light of the annoying comment. I'm going to try and address these points in my next blog post. So thank-you for bringing these things up. Being aware of narcissistic abuse while it is occurring is what's at issue here. We need to be very observant of the verbal and non-verbal cues of these master manipulators, as well as our gut feelings, and natural reactions to interacting with them.
Yes, being aware "while it is occurring" is the thing--the really challenging thing. For so many of us, I think, this involves a steep learning curve, even when we've already taken steps toward psychological self-defence by removing ourselves from those who have hurt us, by reading the books, visiting the blogs, writing and conscientiously debating, etc.
ReplyDeleteIf it were ONLY about ditching our very own toxic parents, spouses, lovers, bosses or friends, and, that accomplished, dusting off our hands, what a tidy little package that could be! But, abuse is freaking ubiquitous. Practically "normal."
Yeah, clearly, there's a lot involved--in our minds and in our guts--in staying aware. I look forward to your future post on this topic!
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ReplyDeleteCosmic Girl,
ReplyDeleteAnnoying Anonymous is not in denial of the damage her mother has done to her sister. She clearly states that her MN mother infected her sister, and her sister has turned into a carbon copy of her mother. Malignant narcissism is a CHOICE. So no denial there. What AAnon seems to be in denial of is REALITY(she 'killed' her family with evaporation powder). She may also be in denial of her own narcissism and passive-aggressive motives. So let's just scrap that from the equation, and focus on the first part of what you believe is Annoying's "true" intentions.
You wrote:
"Whoever Annoying Anonymous is, I believe they either truly want to encourage everyone to embrace a better life and not feel the damage."
First off, who says we're not embracing a good life? Just because we write about our experiences with our MN parents and let it all out - which by the way is fantastic, to be validated and supported - is not exclusive to livin' the good life. I find that remark "presumptuous" and rather ignorant. You're telling people that they need/should have better lives. You are actually placing yourself above the rest of us, and judging our lives, that you know nothing about.
Second, you're suggesting that we "not feel" the damage. That's really interesting to me. That's something right out of the "malignant's" handbook: DON'T FEEL! Narcissists don't have normal human feelings, they fake them, so I guess they think feelings are a "choice." But normal people know feelings just are, and they are neither right or wrong. It's what makes us HUMAN. Normal people "embrace" their feelings and work through them. What's dangerous is denying them. If you get burned, you're going to "feel" burned, if you don't then there's something wrong with you.
I find your comment very suspicious. While hiding behind the voice of annoying anonymous you told ACoNs, and others effected by narcissistic abuse to: Stop feeling, and get better lives.
You're the perfect example of what this whole blog post is all about: observing narcissistic abuse in action.
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ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteCosmic Girl, I can't put this any better than Morag did: Unsolicited advice is considered an act of aggression. Who asked Annoying Anonymous for her opinion about living a better life? Lisette happens to be a highly-intelligent, very articulate woman; if she wanted advice on how to lead a more fulfilling post-MN life, you can be assured that she would have written a lovely post on the topic, and ASKED for feedback.
ReplyDeleteI'm not even going to get into every reason that the comment of Annoying Anonymous was so offensive; if you're interested, I'd suggest that you take the time to read some of the previous comments.
I'm curious about what your connection to the "narcos" that are written about here. Based on your comment, I would say that you probably aren't an ACoN.
Anon
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ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteCosmic Girl,
ReplyDeleteI find your comments dubious because the first one you left under the blog post "The Narcissist's Crazy Projections" you said you were NEW to the blog, and at your intitial purging phase. This comment was closely followed by another comment from you (under the blog post "The Narcissist's Shock Tactics") where you dispensed advice. I never posted the comment, but have included it below. Like Morag put-it: Unsolicited advice is considered an act of aggression. I just wonder about your intentions. Are you here to advise others? Or, can you relate? And what exactly is your "narco" connection? I'm not wholly self-serving in a weird way, I'm just trying to protect the blog from other MN posters that you bear a striking resemblance to. Maybe I've misunderstood you. I don't know. As it stands, your comments concern me.
Cosmic Girl said...
Best advice I've heard yet. If people confuse you or have unstable or unpredictable reactions...Run. If you feel hyperaware or intense tremblings around someone---I know we all can get that when getting involved with someone we are attracted to during the start phase of a relationship, but if you feel like you are doubting your intuitions---do not doubt to negative impulses. If these people are co-workers be ever more vigilant and strategize carefully without arousing too much attention from them. Stroke their weak false selves at the basest level---Coddle the infant within and never reveal any personal or even work vital information to them. The worst thing that you can do is ever letting it be known you are involved with or interested in somebody who shows the slightest interest in return. It makes them feel unworthy and more hatred of you, so the danger of being targeted increases. If you are suspicious even only slightly of being in the presence of a Narco, do not show any signs of happiness or love of even a same sex friend. Separate your emotional life entirely from anyone who exhibits interest in you but gives nothing back and has manic swings and be aware of a person's point of vision when they speak to you. Narcos shift their gaze often. More often than not when they are lying or trying to manipulate when they shift their gaze down to the right. They with lift it back and try to penetrate your soul with their hypnostare as to daze you. The eyes are the gateway to the soul. Its why many Narcos do not look you in the eye until they strike
This is Cosmic Girl's comment on this post:
ReplyDelete"Wow, this post excited a lot of interest rather quickly. I'm a spiritual mumbo-jumblist myself, but I try to keep it in check with most people. Whoever Annoying Anonymous is, I believe they either truly want to encourage everyone to embrace a better life and not feel the damage or they are preaching out of need to themselves in denial of the damage his/her mother has done to her sister. Two cents worth. I did not read everyones response. I hope I'm not redundant."
My comment (two above) was written before I received the two comments above that from Cosmic Girl. I have no control over the order, as Blogger posts them according the time they come in. So now I would like to respond to Cosmic Girl's last two sign out comments.
ReplyDeleteFirst off, Cosmic Girl has her own blog that's why there's the blogger logo beside her name. Is Cosmic Girl Annoying Anonymous? Is Cosmic Girl the "Anonymous" poster who wondered if Annoying Anonymous has her own blog (because she would sure love to read it)? Who can say. This is the internet so deception reigns supreme. In any event, Methinks Cosmic Girl is Annoying Anonymous' cosmic twin.
SUDDENLY, after very lenthy comments, she just woke-up and doesn't need cyber "commiserates." Wow! What a change of heart from those first few comments - that I have stored. Second, Cosmic TELLS me to start writing about politics and culture, and close the book. Hmmm. Sounds like Annoying Anonymous to me. Yet, she contradicts herself and says, "I am not telling you how not to feel. I am telling you to feel in a good way and direct all that energy into something constructive!!" Long story short, Cosmic is telling me HOW TO FEEL and WHAT TO DO. And SUDDENLY my blog isn't constructive anymore. Apparently it was in the first few comments she made, but it isn't now. Didn't Annoying Anonymous tell me the exact same thing?? Yeah. They both like to tell complete strangers how to feel, and what to do. Bossy, bossy, bossy.
My guess is Cosmic Girl IS Annoying Anonymous (the timing is spot-on) and she is also Anonymous who asked if Annoying had a blog. It's sad really. Really sad.
Farewell crazy one, nice try and all that... here's some cyber evaporation powder comin' your way!
Deleted Comment by Cosmic Girl...
DeleteI never could imagine such an innocuous post would even invoke a response yet I was hotly offended since I have not understood what was so offensive to Lisette who I totally respected for her opinions and articulate writing. No, I am not a Child of a Narcissist. You get to a point rather quickly in an online circumstance whether to care or not. I do not know any of you. I want the best for everyone. Truthfully, I do not need cyber "commiserates" anyway. I just woke up. Lisette, you are a clever and bright girl. Start writing about politics or culture. Close the book. I am not telling you not to feel. I am telling you to feel in a good way and direct all that energy into something constructive! (Yes, I need to say that to others ciz I need to hear everyday myself. True. Positive projection is not bad) I love my friends for shaking me and saying you can get back to yourself. Maybe you guys who suffered the crap since you were kids have a harder time with this, I understand that, but I only mean well with any of the words I speak.
Posted by Cosmic Girl to House of Mirrors at 24 January 2012 15:30
Deleted Comment by Cosmic Girl Jan 24, 2012 02:46 PM
ReplyDeleteOk, look, I'm enflamed here. I am not saying to anyone do not work through their pain. The problem is Ns sterilize. I have cardiovascular, nerve and spinal damage from the stress and violence I endured from my Ns. I do. I have not published that anywhere. I am so god-d offended and am not hiding behind any ones voice. I was trying to be positive. But F that since I see you are not supportive but wholly self serving in a weird way. I am not living a "better" life now but am a fragment of who I was before all this. I'll admit that. I need to hear positive voices not those saying I should not feel or that I even said that when I did not. I want people to scream "feel again" "be fearless" "f them" Thanks.
Note to readers: Normally, I would not re-post deleted comments. But Cosmic Girl said good-bye, and continued to bomb me with comments after the fact (that I have not posted). In these comments, she continues to say bye-bye and challenges me to post them.
ReplyDeleteIt's a case of actions speaking louder than words. Just needed to clarify.
Wow. I'm not surprised she keeps bombing you--Cosmic girl has gone supernova. She's exploding in all directions, so it's hard to tell where she's coming from and where she is going.
ReplyDeleteI wanted to add more to my last comment, but I was using an iPod, and things got wonky with the teeny-tiny keyboard ...
ReplyDeleteCosmic Girl, the exploding star, did more than try to change her position willy-nilly (I’d call it gaslighting if she weren’t so obvious about it). In all that spewing space junk, she managed to say some really aggressive, mean and bossy things. What I noticed is that, just like Annoying Anonymous, she favours the use of imperatives--direct orders--to make her points. But, she’s much, much more overt than the former. At least there was no way to mistake her cosmic aggression; no telescope needed this time--it was plain to the naked eye!
What really struck me personally, is that she used an abusive tactic that my former MN boyfriend used before he--quite seemingly out of the blue--went off on me verbally and grabbed my wrist. Like Cosmic Girl did with Lisette, he got himself warmed up by first saying, “you know, Morag, you’re really a smart woman, but ...” I had such a creeping sense of dread when he said this, that I knew nothing good could follow. While pretending to be kind, he was DEFINING who I am, and getting me ready for more of his definitions of me. Then, of course, he REALLY told me who I was, and gave me direct orders to change, and when I asked him to stop (I asked calmly, being too emotionally stunned to respond with aggression of my own), he grabbed my wrist--and laughed. He was careful not to bruise me (he has a good reputation to protect) but he was letting me know that silence was my best option.
Cosmic Girl’s online behaviour is so similar to my evil ex-boyfriend’s, what with her condescending “Lisette, you are a clever, bright girl” (the warm-up) followed by insults and direct orders to change: “write about this or that instead” and “feel good, not bad” and “close that book.” Disgusting. Like a house cat in a bad mood, these abusers lick the very spot they’re going to bite.
Except, when my cat does this to me, I forgive him.
She seems jealous of your blog and is weirdly trying to guilt you into not competing with her anymore because the mere existence of your blog constitutes automatic competition in her mind.
ReplyDeleteHer post follows the exact pattern of one I received from my brother when he was questioned about some clearly nefarious doings of his. Like my brother, she first acts the offended victim role and pretends to not understand: "I never could imagine such an innocuous post would even invoke a response yet I was hotly offended since I have not understood what was so offensive to Lisette..." then further on she becomes even more arrogantly insulting, just as my brother also did.
Then she claims to respect you when she is actually behaving competitively aggressive with you: "...and who I totally respected for her opinions and articulate writing."
What is she doing by commenting on your blog in this way, since she says, as though it were some sort of credential, "No, I am not a Child of a Narcissist."
Why is she dictating what everyone should do, since she says, "I do not know any of you."
Why does she say, "I want the best for everyone...I only mean well with any of the words I speak" as if that excuses inappropriate bossy statements to others? My brother would keep saying he 'wanted the best for me' and 'cared about me' in response to my questions about his demeaning, disrespectful and outright illegal behaviors. When I replied that there was nothing caring or beneficial in his behaviors, he just kept repeating the phrases as though they were a magic spell that would surely eventually get me to stop noticing and describing what he was really doing.
Then she admits, in a condescending manner, the reason she sees you as a competitor: "Lisette, you are a clever and bright girl." She then commands you, "Start writing about politics or culture. Close the book," which is code for 'I have weirdly decided I have the magical ability and moral authority to decree that you will just go away.'
My brother would say I was bright, and then demand that I 'not think so much and just live life,' which meant that he wanted me to stop observing and describing his demeaning, disrespectful and outright illegal behaviors.
She says, "I am telling you to feel in a good way and direct all that energy into something constructive!" 'Because I'm the god of the blogosphere and I have decided!' --quartz
Oh, I forgot to say that I was the target of my brother's destructive lying illegal doings and accusations. --quartz
ReplyDeleteI hate to offer up an opinion that may be divisive. But for me, trying to blend those of us that were raised up from the beginning by a malignant narcissist, and those that picked one up along the way, as in a romantic relationship picked up along the way, is like trying to get dogs to act like cats, and cats to act like dogs. This is not to say we can't live and post in harmony. But my observation is that a romantically entangled person breaking free of a narcissist has a really hard knock at the beginning of the break up. They are as lost and more consumed by their sense of getting fucked over than any child of a narcissist. It's way more intense and longer lasting than a normal romantic relationship break up.
ReplyDeleteBut as long lasting as it may be, and as intense as it feels in the beginning, they get better much quicker than an Acon can get over their N parents.
And when they finally do get better, they want to project their sense of quick dispensation of N abuse on to us. They want to say you guys need to buck up. I know how you feel. It took me years longer to get over my divorce from an N then it should, but I hung in their and I finally broke free. You can do it. Look at me.
Thing is you had this experience for only a few brief years and were mind fucked beyond belief.
Think about being brought home from birth by one of these people. That every single thing you learned and every adaptation you made to fit in the world for at least 18 years if not more was you bending your psyche around one of these freaks. We do not remember a time when they were not in our ears and heads telling us how to think and what to feel and who's the boss and why it is the way it is.
Literally every single thing about us from the ground up was downloaded into our heads by one of these freaks.
No thought was exempt. Not one deed from us was outside the scrutiny of the malignant narcissistic. And that was the way it was for every single second of our existence until we went no contact.
So after the romantically inclined peck their way out. They tell us it was a long hard road. It was intense. I couldn't see a way through it in the beginning. But I put one foot in front of the other and here I am today.
I put one foot in front of the other.
Well our narcissist took a sledge hammer and pounded our feet into bloody stumps before we learned to walk.
Cosmic girl sounds like a hormonal 14 year old swimming in a sea of high school biology teachers.
ReplyDeleteIf one brushes your arm with the cuff of his shirt, know that this is him wanting you, and him assessing your vulnerabilities as he selects his method of attack.
If he calls your name as he takes roll at the beginning of class, don't, whatever you do, don't make a sound.
Don't make eye contact.
He will steal your voice and penetrate your soul. His hypno stare will leave you dazed.
Simply raise your hand and look aimlessly out the window like the last thing on your mind is the thought of his hands on your hips.
His strong firm hands. Cupping your small nimble waist in a loving embrace.
Stroke their weak false selves at the basest level-
With all this talk of stroking and penetrating, I think one of us needs to put a bag of frozen peas down the front of our pants.
I think cosmic girl has some component that attracts narcissistic men and for now being hustled by these upper echelon dudes makes her feel exotic and cosmopolitan.
ReplyDeleteHer presence here on this blog is exactly the commiseration she desires because half the subservient fun in this game is pandering to more mature women to acquire sympathy strokes, while simultaneously proclaiming herself desired enough by men for it to be problematic in her life. She'll self reinforce this loop until it truly does become a problem, and then marry the first guy that comes along after she makes a real commitment to step off the merry-go-round.
Oh these boys won't set me free.
Poor poor pitiful me
q1605, you wrote: “I hate to offer up an opinion that may be divisive. But for me, trying to blend those of us that were raised up from the beginning by a malignant narcissist, and those that picked one up along the way, as in a romantic relationship picked up along the way, is like trying to get dogs to act like cats, and cats to act like dogs. This is not to say we can't live and post in harmony ...”
ReplyDeleteI don’t think your opinion is divisive at all. Your post, from beginning to end, is illuminating about the differences between victims of narcissistic parents, and victims of narcissistic partners. I think you are dead right about the likes of Cosmic Girl coming here, as a romantic victim, and arrogantly (and stupidly, abusively) sharing her “wisdom” with people about whom she knows next to nothing.
Your post also got me thinking about my own presence here. Because, yes, I did land here after having my brains scrambled by a malignant romantic partner (and, he wasn’t my first, either--my first MN, that is!). I did join a community especially for women conned by narcissistic men, thinking it would be the best “fit.” But, with all the subtle victim-blaming, co-dependency stuff, and the general sense of “noise” rather than calm thinking, I just couldn’t stand it.
So, I kept reading and kept looking.This blog, as well as a few others (the Continuum, Ns Suck, What Makes Ns Tick) are thoughtful, literate, analytical, humanistic places. There’s so much to learn from these blogs, not only about narcissistic abuse and recovery (the psychological experience), but also, necessarily, about the moral realm--as in, “what are the right and wrong ways for human beings to relate to one another?” and “what, exactly, is evil?”
I hope this doesn’t sound like a defense for Why I am Here. I only want to highlight some of the reasons why romantic victims of narcissists might be attracted to--and benefit from--blogs like Lisette’s (even though that also means that some high-horse, cosmic types--as you illustrated in your post--will squeak through). More important, though, I’d like to add that the suffering of romantic victims may be complicated, and compounded in invisible ways, by a history of childhood abuse and neglect--that is, by factors that may have made them more vulnerable to MN romantic partners in the first place. Grief on top of unresolved grief: this is where I’m coming from ...
... but, because I don’t see my abusive, neglectful parents as narcissists, I know that I must stay aware that there IS a difference, a real difference that you explained so well, so darkly, with this part of your post: “Well our narcissist took a sledge hammer and pounded our feet into bloody stumps before we learned to walk.”
Morag. Do you remember back when you bought something with a rechargeable battery like a cordless drill, or cellphone, how important it was to follow a specific set of steps when charging the battery that first time? How if you didn't charge it carefully following the instruction manual, it would ruin everything about it. It would never hold a charge for near as long as it would had if you had broken it in right.
ReplyDeleteThink of people who meet a NPD later in life as a battery that was broken in according to directions. Your guy is like the neighbor that borrows your shit and leaves it out in the rain. It's a set back. But it can still be cleaned up and be good as new.
ACON's are the batteries that were taken out of the box with no regard on how it should be broken in. When we inevitably didn't meet expectations, we were dropped on purpose and left in the rain to motivate us to do better. Which we can't, because the fault doesn't lie with us, but with the person that didn't break us in right.The person that still keeps throwing us on the floor expecting that to knock us into compliance.
I don't have any problem with much of any one. But you will outgrow the need for these kind of sites a lot quicker then we will. And when that time comes, and you realize it all seems a bit silly, just ease out the back. Don't start challenging people just because you got through it quicker.
Which you aren't doing. But there are those among us that don't cut people much slack.
When Cosmic girl decided she was done. She didn't see why we couldn't be done too.
Very thought-provoking comments for sure...I totally get where you are coming from Q. There is a huge difference between ACoNs, and someone who picked their poison later in life. You could put me in both categories; I had a MN mother, then the first guy that I married was probably a psychopath or something close to it.
ReplyDeleteI'll tell you the people that I'm leery of - it's the people in relationships with MNs who claim to have had great childhoods. A person with a solid upbringing wouldn't put up with the b.s. of a MN long enough to need to post about it, so the person either is in denial about their upbringing, or has a PD or some other serious mental illness themselves.
Morag, I definitely appreciate your comments; they are always well thought-out and insightful. Whether your parents qualified as MNs or not, it sounds like you had an awful upbringing, and am quite sure that you can relate in many ways. You made such a profound point in saying that the suffering of romantic victims may complicated and compounded by childhood abuse and neglect. You are right on point about this.
Anon
I hate to make the distinction. My first wife was as borderline as you can find a person. It totally freaked me out after we divorced and I found out all the stuff she had going on behind my back. So I know this experience is real and as mind fucking as having the ACON thing going.
ReplyDeleteI bought the book "I hate you , please don't leave me" the last year of that marriage to try and figure her out.
When I hear someone demonstratively telling others to get over it, it is almost always the romance induced trauma victims.
That's all I would ask. It's a given (almost) that you will find your center before the child of a narcissistic will. Just don't hang out with us until you are better, and then start calling us loser's for continuing to wallow in the mire.
The funny thing about that book is that I bought it to get a handle on my wife. But I spent more time remarking how it sounds just like my mother than anything else.
Who would have guessed the portent behind this book purchase. LOL
Morag,
ReplyDeleteI'm glad you're here, and you're in the right place. It would never occur to me that you would challenge anyone here. From what I've observed, the people who challenge others, blame the victim, and preach fogiveness are usually PD themselves. They don't get it because they lack empathy. It has everything to do with their personalities and nothing to do with their N experience whatever it might be. And we all move along at our own pace, so who's to say that someone who has been through the ringer with a narcissist romantically, will move along any quicker than someone dealing with the reality of N parents. As an ACoN, I have had my fair share of N boyfriends, and in many ways being in a romantic relationship with a N can be more difficult to come to terms with than the one with our N parents. I knew what to expect within my family, I didn't think I would be abused the same way by someone I placed my trust in, outside of the sick system. They definitely re-open all those parental wounds, that's for sure.
Grief on top of unresolved grief is exactly it.
Thank you, Lisette and Anonymous at 7:08 pm, for understanding where I’m coming from, and for making me feel so welcome.
ReplyDeleteq1605: I hear what you’re saying; the battery analogy makes lots of sense. Not all abuse is the same, quantitatively or qualitatively. More than that, you’re saying that the differences lie in WHEN the abuse happens (for instance, those critical periods in a child’s development), for how long it goes on, and also who is doing the abusing. Although I would have to say, to borrow your words, that my own rechargeable battery was not quite “broken-in according to directions,” I do realize, without any minimization on my part, that I don’t have the same demons to wrestle with as ACoNs do. It’s obvious that there are certain aspects of this kind of experience that are going to elude my full understanding--and the same goes for fully understanding the experiences of, say, prisoners of war, or victims of some kind of suicide cult, like the Peoples Temple.
You’re probably correct that some people, like romantic victims, will outgrow the need for support and for places like this blog much more quickly than others. Even so, I cannot imagine finding anything in these discussions “silly,” let alone something to challenge with a “get it over, already!” Lisette is right: those kind of challenges are a failure of empathy. And, not only that, but also a failure to use the opportunity to “grow” more empathy when confronted with something beyond one’s own experiences. I think everyone fails, sometimes, to be empathetic when empathy is required--it’s part of the problem of being all alone with our consciousness, and how difficult it can be to bust through it and connect with others. But, to not try at all, to refuse this kind of work--again, you said it, Lisette: THAT is likely a personality or character disorder.
The people who habitually say “get over it already, write about something else, don’t-worry-be-happy, see only the good in people, forgive”--these people, whether they realize it or not, and whether they are abusers or deluded or both--these people objectify others with their words. Having experienced this kind of objectification over and over my whole life (including recently, when I tried to tell friends about my MN boyfriend, and they just couldn’t quite believe me--he’s so “nice” after all--which apparently means I am not a reliable interpreter of my own experience), I have grown to despise any hint of objectifying, invalidating, minimizing or from-up-above kind of speech. I’m practically allergic to it. In that way, it’s probably safe to say, I have a lot in common with the ACoN people here!
It's impossible to convey subtlety in text. I am doing a thing called fallacy of misplaced concreteness. When someone mistakes an abstract for a fact. I think Lisette is right about Cosmic Girl being disordered. I still hear someone speak and take them at their word. She was so all over the place that she must be skewed. Or high.
ReplyDeleteI could use some of that.
It's just the way it all unfolded for me. I was never in a place where I was dealing with both sources of agitation at the same time. I went through a divorce. Got over it. Then later my mother turned on me. I think my mother...I don't see why it gets under my skin the way it does because I had seen her throw every else one under the bus for years. Just never me. But it was like really?
I've been through every crazy woman in three counties. Divorced, robbed in court, cheated on, lied to, I think we all know the drill.
And to have my mother on the phone to any body that dicked me over speaking to them like that short woman on poltergiest going around saying..all welcome...all welcome.
Makes me want to smash her face.
I honesty believe normal people who want to move on, do. They don't linger around acting all superior and telling others what to do. If you're over it, then what the hell are you doing here? If you can't relate to people on this blog or other blogs, then what the hell are you doing here? Oh yeah, they're here to relate from above, and act as our judge and impart wisdom blah blah blah. They're here to continue to make themselves feel better at the expense of everyone else. They puff themselves us, by putting us down. They are motivated by aggression, and their hidden agenda isn't so hidden.
ReplyDeleteI know why I make a distinction. It's not my nature to go around gauging who is what and why and where and then passing judgement. It really isn't.
ReplyDeleteIt's because I keep hanging around sites and getting told their is a distinction.
There are sites for women with N mothers. There are sites about women dealing with sociopath boyfriends. I don't tread there because it's stated that it's women only.
My normal state of mind would be that if someone made it their mission in life to f you over then come on down.
It seems I always find myself getting drawn into debates and splitting hairs over things like this. I don't mean here. Elsewhere.
And I have taken this on as my reality. It's not. I have been indoctrinated with it.
Thanks Lisette. For bringing me back to my senses.
Personally, I value everything you've said on my blog, your blog, and other blogs, q1605! I appreciate your voice so much.
DeleteUpsi. You know I was raised with no boundaries. Keep this up and I will be forced to ask for your hand in marriage.
DeleteHey, this isn't Match.com.
DeleteAwwwwww
DeleteWell, that's it then, in order to not hurt any of our feelings, it's clear you must now marry all of us. Thanks =).
But seriously, awwwwwww
This is all so sudden! Can we all be friend's with benefits for a few years and work our way up???
DeleteIf you're over it, then what the hell are you doing here?
ReplyDeleteYou can get an amen on that!
Seriously. It just doesn't add-up. And you will NEVER get an answer to the "what are you doing here?" question. NEVER. It seems to be the one line that sends these roaches scattering and hiding.
ReplyDeleteI've had others do that bs to me. Over and over again.They've told me in so many words and actually being straight forward telling me that I'm not a reliable interpreter of my own experiences. They have minimized my experiences with nfoo and other narcs in general.Basically, by saying this they've made excuse for the narcs behavior. Bottom line, these people are so full of themselves and clearly lack empathy.Some were narcs themselves. They think that THEY are the interpreters of others lives and experiences. The "get over it" people I stay away from now. All of these type of people are just a bunch of a holes who lack empathy and are so full of themselves....
ReplyDelete“Over and over again.They've told me in so many words and actually being straight forward telling me that I'm not a reliable interpreter of my own experiences.” You, too, eh?
ReplyDeleteAnd, sometimes--perhaps you’ve had this as well--it’s with just a look: for instance, you just want to be heard--not to rant or rave or cry--but just for a friend to listen while you try to describe how someone screwed with your head. And then there’s that certain, embarassed shift of the eyes away from you--an unmistakeable gesture that tells you everything you need to know. That they can’t or won’t hear it, even if they are making sympathetic noises while they’re blocking you out. That’s when I realize my mistake, and shut it all down. It’s pointless to continue, sounding like a lawyer, citing evidence in your own defense when you haven’t committed any crime--or worse, like a “too sensitive” or unbalanced person. Blech.
And, yet, we live in a society whose popular psychology urges us to “talk about it” and “get it out” and that tells us not to be ashamed of asking for support. No one seems to talk about the risk entailed in asking for support, or even just an ear. And the risk, of course, is feeling even WORSE than you did before! I like Lisette’s post from July 2011 about the issue of isolation ... how not being heard (or being told to feel a different way) only adds insult to the original injury, or even rivals the original injury in terms of emotional and psychological damage.
Yeah, keeping a tight lid on it--”staying away” as you said, Anonymous--seems the safer option. But, with crazy-making invalidation being so prevalent--it’s ridiculously easy to make others be quiet about their pain--it’s an option that leaves something to be desired.
Morag, yep, have gotten that look to.Made me feel even worse and rejected.What I've been through doesn't matter to them. I won't deal with these types of people anymore. Reality is that society doesn't give a crap.They are very self-centered.Also people don't want to deal with reality because they want to live in a fantasy.This is why they deny the truth of our reality.
ReplyDeleteYes--cozy fantasy. It's seems that in a contest of two different realities, the reality with the most practiced denial wins! Which explains why victims themselves often give in, and join the ranks of those who would tell them to just shut up. When a victim violates his/her own reality with denial, at least there's an illusion of safety, strength, agency, choice, etc. The trouble comes when they go around prescribing and/or enforcing the same "cure" for others ...
ReplyDeleteWell said! Wow. That's gold.
DeleteThank you!
Even if the reality of the parent's actions are a clear cut case of sociopath behavior, people still don't want to hear it. So we're damned no matter what. People think we are either pussies whining that are mommies and daddies didn't love us enough, or if your parents are crazy like make it into the news crazy they look at us like we are sprouting a second head.
ReplyDeleteSo I don't go there. Not in real life.
@q1605 - "So I don't go there. Not in real life."
ReplyDeleteYup. That about sums it up. Maybe that's why so many of us take to writing about our experiences online... there's no where else to turn.
Damn. That is very well put Morag. We all have our reality of choice, and if yours ain't like mine I don't want to hear about it.
ReplyDeleteMorag, sorry if I came off as inflexible further back. I've been badgered off sites by the people you are speaking of.
And cosmic girls prose was a bit nauseating.
All the romanticizing of the N. And how he will take your defense's and run. It would have been amusing but for her viciousness in the end. I would love to hear what her ex-boyfriend and that other woman has to say.
"we all have a reality of choice,and if yours ain't like mine I don't want to here about it", so true.
ReplyDeleteq1605--You had an important point to make, and you made that point clearly: having an MN turn one’s life upside down in short order is bad enough, but being “raised” by a malignant-narcissistic-sociopathic parent is a reality very few have experienced.
ReplyDeleteI can understand--without a sociopathic parent of my own--why you would want the know-it-alls (who don’t know, don’t want to know, or have conveniently forgotten what they DID know), to keep their badgering hands off your reality. They seem to think their hands are healing hands, but, in fact, (as we’ve seen right here, on this blog) their hands are grubby. So, you have a right to defend your own context, and the terms of your own healing--even to the point of inflexibility, if that is what the situation requires!
The thing is, most of us--when it comes to defending our own realities--have had to deal with these badgering, grubby hands on some level. What this means, as far as I can tell, is that we should now have a way, or at least the willingness, to extend that understanding, to stretch it out, toward another person’s reality, even if we have not experienced that particular reality ourselves. That might mean just sitting quietly and listening, rather than dispensing feel-good (insulting) advice--or writing a manic dissertation on a constellation of ill-defined subjects just to (apparently) hear the sound of one's own voice.
Morag.I like to take people on a case by case basis. And I was not affording you that luxury. I was painting you with the same brush as I did Cosmic girl. She was so far over the top that it kind of set me off. And this isn't my blog.
ReplyDeleteMy ex wife ran me through a wringer. Long before I knew what NPD was. Despite living in the middle of N central.
I wouldn't want to make you feel uncomfortable on my blog, much less on someone else's.
Cosmic Girl needs some Lithium. Apparently on a manic ride she imagines herself Jack(queline) Kerouac with this stream of consciousness crap. Jack was brilliant in many ways; she's a failure in every way. Wish I could find some compassion but Ns don't need any as they've sucked it all and I'm not gonna feed that in any event.
ReplyDelete