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I used to wonder why the people in my life always seemed to derive some form of gratification from my misfortune. Not only were they devoid of sympathy, support, understanding or a kind word; they always seemed to make me feel worse.
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Your information is right on! You know about narcissism as well as anyone could.
ReplyDeleteThis week Dr. Phil had a show about narcissism. I was able to see it, and it seems that he could learn a great deal about narcissism from you. It was an introduction for those who have little experience with narcissists, but I think he could spend one show a week about narcissism and the depths that it exists in society.
My FOO, particularly my sister[ironically the BABY of the family] feeds off others suffering. Now, they don't hurt everyone, just certain people[ not always nice people because my sister hated the competition for spot #1 with my dad, but mostly]
Deletewhen my first husband was in bed dying of leukemia she convinced my daughter that he was faking his illness.she said she had proof.
When my son first became ill[the most excruciating pain humanly possible the neurologist said] she said that she had proof he was faking. My daughter believed her and my son attempterd suicide.
when my son was in the bottom 1% for weight in his age group and his doctor mentioned that if he didn't gain any weight that they might hAave to consider a feeding tube and to feed him whenever and whatever we could? Well, the next time we saw my sister was on a thanksgiving. My son grabbed a roll off of the counter and my sister [spraying turkey out of her ugly mouth] screamed at him "Don't eat that roll."
when my dad was on what the docs thought was his deathbed my brother physically restrained my mom[in the back of the hospital room] and covered her mouth to keep her from responding when "The Borg" was letting my dad knew how hated he was. In the hall afterwards my sister said it was worth waiting all these years to let him know how hated he was.
Later they decided to get revenge on me for being kind to him. I can't go into that now because I start to have a meltdown and fold into myself.
but it was awful and has not stopped since that day.
when my sis had breast cancer i visited in the hospital every day. I do not drive. I would take a bus ride from work, walk a mile to my house, pick up my baby[now 19] and take 3 buses to visit her and then 3 bus rides home. EVERY DAY.
when I got breast cancer, the day that my diagnosis was official she got a restraining order on me.[ i had left 3 messages on her answering machine telling her she was evil and why] When I went to court the judge spent a good 1o minutes letting her know he thought she is a mean psycho bitch [those are not the words he used]
So much more, but one thing that really scares me is that she is an RN at a cancer center and is arround suffering people all of the time.
So, once again Lissette validates all of our truths when she shares the nature of the malignant narcissist and every time she does I know that I AM good enough...and I always was.
Vicky
oh, i forgot her most recent act of cruelty. when I went NC last summer I told her that I didn't need or want anything to do with "the Borg" and that I had plenty of support from my family here at the resort. Well, she made enough phone calls and is convincing enough that she convinced a few people [who ALL had seen my scarred chest, who had watched my belly swell up and most of my hair fall out and my skin aging 20 years in a few months] that I am faking breast cancer. I was so devastated. I am so glad I have found you all.
Deletevicky
So much to say on another great article but I'll try to keep it brief. While reading your words, I remembered the main reason why I stopped speaking to my "the boyfriend, the boyfriend, the boyfriend" 89 year old aunt I posted about on this site. When we were last together for some social gathering in the early 90's she turned to me at a crowded dinner table and screamed, in a voice that could drown out Ethel Merman: "Hey, remember that time when you pulled out all your eyebrows and eyelashes?" Hair pulling was the self-soothing mechanism I began at a very early age in an attempt to deal with my N mother's physical and emotional violence. "Hey, remember that time when you..." Yeah, bitch, thanks for bring that up, as though I could FORGET going through my formative and most vulnerable grade school years looking like a cueball. Fucking bitch -- this is DINNER table patter???" I don't remember what I said to her but in my head I suddenly understood why my uncle dumped her for another broad. Regarding the MN's getting away with their various acts of brutality I have to say that I can be something of an introvert most of the time, but in two cases over the last five years, one with a family member who I discovered had been manipulating my aging father for money and stealing my dead mother's antiques while he was out working and she had a key to the house -- another who was a friend and a skin suit MN...both of these fuckwads finally pushed me to the breaking point and I, the introvert, went after them like a psychotic fox in a hen house. I tore them more new assholes than they will ever be able to count and God was that liberating. Well worth the smear campaigns that certainly ensued. So what who cares? Since with toxic narcs there are "no rules in a knife fight" have at it. It's liberating, it blasts open that lovely toxic shame they try so hard to hide and it's fun, and if thereafter you go immediately to NC it really pisses them off.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, Ethel the boyfriend Merman sounds like one hell of a loud mouth bully. I bet she was that way as a kid too. Nasty children grow-up to be nasty children in adult bodies. I too am a hair puller. I never ended up with bald patches because I was careful to rotate my crops and not harvest the same area over and over. I still do it when I'm stressed. I even tried an amino acid supplement for but it didn't do a damn thing. I'm glad you ripped those narcs a new one. I have something similiar going on with slimey MN sister and her slimey monkey manipulating and exploiting my aging N father. I would love to go after them like a psychotic fox in a hen house, but for now I'm going to play it crazy like a fox... a sly fox. I agree that going after the narcs is well worth the smear campaign because who gives a shit what the morons in an N's inner circle think. They all deserve each other.
DeleteThanks for your response, Lisette. I bet we tried the same amino acid supplement to no avail. Wouldn't it have been nicer to have had a normal mother and no need to start any hair pulling at all? Oh well. I like the fact that since reading blogs like yours I can now size up fairly early who the toxic ones are and walk the other way quickly. Your article on how to never let a narcissist into you head has been so valuable to me. Now I just say STOP the minute I let even thoughts of one of these folks get up there. If they're not in, they can't mentally unseat me.
DeleteI just want to thank you for all your work. You do a fantastic job unveiling what lurks hidden in plain sight. I didnt even understand the concept of a narcissist until about a year ago. I was being eaten alive by these zombies, and I knew something was wrong with THEM, not me. I hopped on a computer and a few clicks later the light began to shine in. What a process it is to come to terms with. If it wasn't for blogs like this, I might have thought I was the crazy one. And that is just how those psychopaths like it. I got away from them, and one of the last things my MNM heard from my mouth was that she's a NARCISSIST! I even left her an informative printout about narcissists I got from the library. She still stalks me, but I named it, by GOD! I called satan by it's authentic name before I ran like hell.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, right on! The Google Oracle also helped me see the light - hallelujah! When I first learned about MNs I became SO angry because I always knew deep down there was something wrong with THEM, but I never had the validation that I needed until I discovered an ACoN blog. So when I FINALLY got confirmation I was livid! After 18 years without uttering a word to MNM I called her up and said, "Betty, you malignant narcissist cunt! I hope you rot in hell!" I plan on those being my last words to the bitch. I also gave N father - in reference to MN sister - a print out from Bully Online about the family bully. I now have that article on my blog. They all know that I think they're a bunch of narcs, but they all guzzle the same koolaid and have banned together to label me the problem. Hey, I'm happy to be considered a problem in that sick system.
DeleteOoooh, but if the MN has so much as a hang nail, they'll call you at all hours demanding your complete attention and will spin their "injury" into a Near Death Experience. It still blows my mind these MNs can be so convincing-even to outsiders, people who didn't grow up in MNFOOs-they can still persuade other people to deny what their eyes have "told" them. (ie, Who do you believe? Them or your "lying eyes?")
ReplyDeleteIn some way, these kinds of responses from outsiders alleviate my own sense of being such a dupe, for actually believing Psychob even into my young adult years. And the crueler, more painful, out-right lying the MNs engage in with others, the more likely the others are to believe them! Despite even years of experience with us the MN is *that* convincing regardless of how absolutely outrageous or incredible the stories/lies. Paradoxically instead of believing us-and their experiences of us-the mindset of outsiders appears to be, "Well, it must be true. Why else would their mother/father/sister/brother say or do such a thing if it wasn't true?"
Because they are MNs. The more painful to the victim the "story" is, the more likely they are to believe them. So now, we become the recipients of proxy abuse courtesy of the MNs who recruit and encourage others to "pile on." During times of extreme stress in my life it's been my experience Psychob would ramp up her odious crap. (Post NC, between her PIs and the phone tap, I had no privacy even in my own home.) One would think outsiders at the very least wouldn't make the situation worse than it already is...
I firmly believe there is NO "low" to how far an MN will go to inflict as much pain as possible to get their "Hit" as Lisette describes from the Targeted family member. So much for Reconciliation/Restoration of the relationship: After all, the MN "loves you" and is soooo very "concerned"-about crushing their "beloved" DD, DS etc.
Yeah, right. From the MN's lofty perches, experience and geographical distance are no barriers to their perfidy and nastiness. There was no area in my life even in my adult years, even post total NC for decades which remained unaffected by her "Shock and Awe" Terrorism Campaign to inflict maximum pain with relatively little effort on her part, to destroy me. "Getting away with it" *and* conning "others" to participate no doubt sent her into the ultimate spasms of MN-gasms.
TW
We've all been dupes and since no man is an island we have to still interact with them. But what a blessing it has been for me to now be able to analyze their dialogue and see certain things in common/warning signs of the slimy favor they're about to ask so I can carefully construct the polite "No, go fuck yourself." First, there's the hello, and the bogus concern about something going on in your life -- the pretense for the call. At this point you should now be asking yourself, okay, they don't give a shit about me, what are they warming me up for that they now think by their bullshit faux interest in me they've successfully paved the way for? This is your ( our) cue to have a big laugh internally because right after that the slimy, self-centered request will emerge from them and then you can play stupid and deny them what they were hoping to extract from you for free. You know, that thing that in a million years they would never do for you unless they needed something back. I'm telling you if you can create the mindset to enjoy this and make it into a game, it can be fun.
DeleteOne more comment, and I suppose you can liken me to people who wrestle alligators or handle cobras, but I have to say I have started to enjoy ( periodically, when things get a little dull)teasing these reptiles into THINKING they are going to be able to stick their fangs in me and then backing off without them having a clue that I took them to the edge then dumped them. It's the reverse-fuck-you-up. It's like a guy thinking he's got a sure thing and then, whoops, he suddenly doesn't. I have a next door neighbor who is the little old lady you just described and everyone thinks she is a saint but they are 180 degrees wrong. I'm having fun with this toxic biddy.
ReplyDeletePicturing a narc fuming mad with no outlet to release their pent-up rage makes me happy. Care to add a visual of what you're doing to this toxic old biddy?
DeleteNot so visual, but here goes. I'm leaving to drop off a prepaid box at the post office one Saturday. I see her in the yard doing some gardening. I stupidly ( because it's my nature to be generous) ask if she has any letters she wants mailed. She says no, but would I buy her a book of stamps. Which means, of course, she expects me to now stand in line at the post office for her. Of course I'm taken aback by the brazenness of her request -- she knew I was just there to drop something off -- but I say ok. She starts to go back to her work when I let her know I didn't bring my purse and she will have to give me money if she wants the stamps. (Her first N injury) She grudging goes in her house and brings me some money. Anyway, as I drive to the post office I'm pretty irritated at her chutzpah but I decide oh well, who cares -- at least she didn't get away with having me buy her stamps too. But that's when I decide to have a little fun. When I get home and give her the stamps I make sure to tell her that I was lucky to arrive at the post office exactly when I
Deletedid because there was absolutely no line there and I was able to get in and out right away. ( N injury #2) She sort of huffed, took her stamps and ignored my existence for about a week and a half.
Bad narcissist mother went one step further and posted on the internet (her constant platform) that people who are abused are sado-masochists who enjoy it, and thus deserve it. I guess that includes hew own children. This convenient concept absolves the narcissist of harming her young, because in her own mind she was doing them a favor by providing the abuse they so wanted, even as babies.
ReplyDeleteUmm, ok. So bad narcissistic mother believes that people who are abused enjoy it. Despicable! Methinks BAD NM is making one hell of a projection. She may as well scream from the roof tops, "I'M CRAZY, I'M SADISTIC! GET USED TO IT!"
DeleteThese narcs always give themselves away.
Is she also a new age freak, the more toxic kind who tells ACONs that it's all their fault because "you chose your parents"? They expound this in an ultra-superior tone of voice, being the superenlightened creatures they are, who seem never to have had an original thought in their lives and so ready to latch on and use any bullshit that shores up their evasion of responsibility for the way they treat others or the way others are abused by others. This victim-blaming from the holier-than-thous is really sick sadistic stuff: in essence it is them rubbing salt into the open wounds that they and their evil subspecies have inflicted. It's not only intended to increase the pain, but also to induce victim shaming and silencing. It's just another version of the domestic violence brute's classic rationale: "she deserved it". The underlying lie is that other people nominated for abuse and so the perpetrators are innocent, a modern expression of old-fashioned Calvinism (bad things don't happen to good people, only bad people suffer because God knows they are bad). It's the same old repugnant self-exonerating muck narcissists shore up their grandiosity with, the world according to them. Revictimising the victim is one of their most gratifying forms of feeding. Despicable hags.
DeleteYou should see the troll comments I get from their evil subspecies. These sadistic, victim-blaming low-lifes "try" to do just that: rub salt into the wound and induce shaming and silencing. They ALL identify with abusers/MNs and my blog acts as a thorn in their side. What these ignorant, bottom-feeding parasites can't seem to grasp is that shit doesn't work on me. They are two decades too late. The more MNs I piss off, the better. And they ALL try to pull that holier-than-thou crap and slip in the back door of my blog in the older posts. Just a bunch of perverts and cowards with way too much time on their hands. But that's what these MNs do, isn't it? They hunt for prey. Those pathetic pieces of shit won't find any fresh meat here. They really need to get a life and stop obsessing on ours.
DeleteWell said! They're too late!
DeleteNo-one would enrage them more than you, Lisette, because of the stark non-collusive ways you unmask them, the way your descriptions capture the malignant essence of their behaviour and characters. When I used to advocate for another unpopular cause, trolls would ring up and immediately launch an attack on my mental health. Essentially they were saying that I had to be mentally ill because my opinion was polar opposite of theirs. Classic narcissism from the first breath.
DeleteYour comment left me wondering why they would come or comment here. Even a pea-brain would see in seconds that malicious attacks would not deter nor undermine you. I brainstorm some possible reasons, not mutually exclusive: 1) they want to know how far you are on to them so can refine tactics if necessary 2) they are looking for statements from their own victims as a further opportunity to feed on past injuries they have inflicted 3)they want to target what you say in their own blogs, 4) they like the feeling of solidarity with the other MNs we describe 5) they can gloat over our individual and collective past suffering 6) they hope to hone their skills at inflicting malicious damage.
They come here to serve their needs because that's the only reason they ever go anywhere, do anything, or draw breath. You would be an ENORMOUS affront to their smug sense of being inviolate abusers. I like to picture them sitting at their screens having apoplectic fits as you despatch them with "Fuck off forever you scum troll cunt". Pity we can't watch videos of their response!!!
Hahaha! You know, I was thinking the same thing: pity we can't watch videos of them having apoplectic fits! Anna, I think it's really just like you said: they come here to serve their needs because that's the only reason they ever go anywhere, do anything or draw breath. It's the world according to them, and these idiots are under the delusion that I give a shit what some faceless, nameless, pathetic troll has to say. Like all MNs, they come in many disguises. When I have acutally engaged one of these cretins, I always ask, "So why are you here?" They never answer my question. What are they going to say? I'm trolling the net finding venues where I can unleash my nastiness? I figure they're all just like Anonymous' mother. Hateful monsters who use the internet as a platform to spew their venom. Most likely MN parents whose adult children have nothing to do with them. The garbage that comes out of their smaller than pea sized brains is at times hysterical because it's all projection. And after I tell them to get a life, they all say stuff like, "Ok, I'm going to leave you alone because I have a life that I'm grateful for blah blah blah" and then they call me something nasty on their way out. I ignore those missives and the troll waits a few days and comes back AGAIN and delivers more nastygrams!! Hilarious! They have absolutely no dignity.
Delete"But who would ever believe a “mother” would be a killer of the very life she gave? Who would believe that a mother would smell her daughter’s blood and go in for the kill? Who would believe that a mother would taste her daughter’s blood and crave more? Who could ever comprehend that the malignant narcissist is a mental and emotional cannibal?"
ReplyDeleteAn ACoN, that's for damn sure! :)
This is what contributed to the severity of my struggles over the years. It's hard enough to be tortured by your own mother, but when you try to talk about it and no one believes you because they can't fathom that a mother could behave this way, it's an additional slap in the face. After gathering the courage to open up just a little bit, to hear something like, "Of course your mother loves you" or "She did the best she could" - it's almost more than a person can take.
Connecting with other ACoNs is probably what really saved me. Sharing and comparing experiences with them - I don't even have words to tell you how healing that was...Up until then, I routinely wondered if I had a personality disorder, or if not that, what was wrong with me. I muddled through life trying to do the right thing, but seemed to regularly question my own sanity.
Thank you, Lisette, for writing posts like these, and thank you to my fellow ACoNs for always being there. ;)
"After gathering the courage to open up just a little bit, to hear something like, "Of course your mother loves you" or "She did the best she could" - it's almost more than a person can take."
DeleteI hear that. It is one of the most alienating experiences a person can have. It's precisely at that point where you feel there's no where left to turn, and that you really are all alone. Personally, I just gave up and accepted that's the way people are. Then something compelled me to google narcissist and everything changed. I don't know where I would be if it weren't for fellow ACoNs. A big thanks right back atcha!
Lisette, I am learning so much from your blog. Thank you for taking the time to educate and bring victims together. Your writing helped me to figure out that I have a narc MIL and my daughter ( a child) was victimized by a narc sports teammate and her narc mom. I really owe it to you that we escaped from the mother-daughter narc duo...a huge thanks-you are a superhero!! Seriously! I figured it out about the mother daughter duo and we RAN. Changed teams, cut all the ties. Best thing I could do for my child's spirit and future.
ReplyDeleteAnd I love your art and photos in the blog- brilliant, creative, enlightening and funny! And we all need a serious laugh after the stress these crazy narcs cause. It's therapeutic. I'm a devoted reader now so that I can figure out how to deal with the N MIL.
Anonymous, you're welcome! I'm glad you got away. Competitive sports really do attract those mother-daughter narc duos. I remember a girl on my basketball team in high school who was a narc, golden child type and her mother was at EVERY game doting on her and making sure she always played. I think the coach was afraid of the mother so he always made sure to give the N daughter special attention and priviledges. Thing is, no other parents ever showed up for the games unless it was the final big one of the season. But that one N lady was always there watching her human extension. The N daughter, though bordering on manly in the looks department, really thought she was hot stuff and she was a pathological liar to boot. Her N mother had her good and delusional about herself. Over the years, I've heard stories on the news about parents going completely berserk at their kid's hockey games and bullying other players, and I always think: Narc! My condolences for having a N MIL. At least now you know what you're up against.
DeleteThis puts me in mind of my brother. A couple of comments ago someone said thank god for sites like this. I could not agree more. Most of my life I thought there was something wrong with me. My brother grew up wanting all the attention right from the start.I grew up without it. I was the girl ther amongst three kids that had to help her disabled mum.So I was the giver,the helper,'the dogsbody. My brother hated me ,bullied me,made sure I got no attention.I was self harming at 14. Didn't know why, Grew up, introverted, but needing approval. I'm in my sixties now, and my brother still hates me. I now know what a nice person I am and always was,because of sites like this. Thank you so much for taking that pit of sadness,always there,away for good.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, I'm glad you're here and that you understand that it's not you, it never was about you. My sister has always hated me and always will, that's why I stay away from her. It never made a bit of difference how nice I was to her. She was a hateful bully as a kid, and she's a hateful bully as an adult. These narcs never change, they only get worse with age.
DeleteYou know what anonymous[and everyone else] we should have an ACON get together. bobby and I have an incredible relationship and I think alot of it has to do with our N FOO[though his was much better] So hanging arround a bunch of kind persons would be beyond awesome.
ReplyDeleteVicki
That's a nice idea, Vicky. But I guess for now our get togethers will have to be virtual. Hanging around with kind persons on the net is still beyond awesome. ;)
Delete40 years ago my MN husband persuaded me to join him in Germany for a year where he had a one year scholarship from the German government. I had left him six months before and had moved to England to get away from him, He persuaded me to join him in Germany arguing that away from our interfering families, this would be an opportunity for us to repossess the original hopes we once had at the start of our relationship. Later I discovered that he had manouvered to get this scholarship precisely as a part of the plan to lure me back.
ReplyDeleteHe was completely fluent in German and I spoke no German at all. It was impossible for me to work, and the language barrier precluded any kind of social life for me. I was totally dependent on him for any conversation or company. After six months I was excruciatingly lonely
and isolated. He had spent all my money and we lived on his monthly scholarship funds. Once I was trapped, the psychological warfare resumed: the violence of silence at home for days and days on end, so that I had no conversation at all. Finding minute fault with everything I cooked, however well. Going out without telling me when (or even if) he would return. I spent hours staring at the snakes through the window of a pet shop just around the corner from our apartment simply for something to provide some interest in my barren lonely life, and came to know the pet shop owner by sight, and even though we could not converse well he provided some minimal social contact - looking out for my daily appearance at the window, beckoning me in and indicating would I like to hold one of the snakes (no). They fascinated me because, I think, they were in captivity and isolation and so was I. After six months of excruciating isolation for me - of which my MN husband was acutely aware, we were walking in the street when an associate of his from the University stopped to speak to us. Once introduced to me, he said, "Why haven't you come to our English speaking group yet? Did you read the invitations I sent? I've been asking your husband when we are going to have the pleasure of your company!"
The manipulation never ends. Yes, they feed off your pain. It makes them feel GREAT. It's true that at some points in this sad episode I was an overtrusting fool, though that doesn't excuse the sadistic games he endlessly played to amuse his grandiose ego.
"...though that doesn't excuse the sadistic games he endlessly played to amuse his grandiose ego."
DeleteThat's exactly it, yk? Regardless of how ever horrible or terrible they tried to portray us as being, we did nothing to incur this behavior from anyone, never mind someone who proclaimed to "love" us. They wiped off all their "nasty" on us, felt a whole lot better and we felt like crap, never mind, "HUH?" And then they get off on having hurt us.
Also, "The manipulation never ends." That revelation came to me over time as, "OK, TW. You've privately admitted to yourself you don't like your mother. sigh. Not a good daughter." Then, "OK, TW, you've done the same, but now substitute the work "love" for "like." A bad daughter now worse yet. But it was true. The next one was, "If I had a choice, I wouldn't even have her in my life" and we all know what flows from that: The hard, cold reality you do have a choice and IMO a moral, practical, ethical taking stock of yourself and, well, holding those up to the light of reality, all your experiences with them. But the ultimate "That's it, I'm DONE" came after I looked into the indefinite future and realistically could not see any hope for change. Ever. Why? Just as you said, "The manipulation never ends."
Once you accept that, it's really over: NC is the only remaining option. And in some ways really an almost compassionate one for both/all of you: If my presence isn't helping, my absence won't hurt, yk? Either/Any of us. I don't mean that observation in any way to be self-serving, OK? But just another rather logical outcome.
TW
There's nothing self-serving in self protection, and I get what you say totally TW. I don't see how any of us can really have anything more than a superficial fence-mending recovery until we fully achieve self protection. That has to come first. To anyone who is still trapped as a source of supply I want to scream: STOP THEIR FEEDING OFF YOU!!!
DeleteDon't get stuck in figuring it out, trying to get even, trying to explain, trying harder, waiting for justice, or just hoping that one day they will wake up and decide to act like normal decent human beings. Don't get stuck in what did I ever do to deserve this, or if I was a better person this wouldn't happen to me, or any other the self-serving shit they want to keep you stuck in. Do whatever it takes to secure your safety, however impossible that might seem. I am saying this because I wasted too many decades stuck in those traps of devaluation and assailed by the microbes of worthlessness they injected into my being, and I want people younger than me to escape earlier than I did.
To anyone still pondering this step: Yes, there may be problems that arise from your departure from their toxic shooting range, but the energy in yourself which freedom liberates becomes totally available to you to solve those problems. One little rider I want to add: whenever you come across some apologist book/website/friend/guru who tells you that your freedom is not possible unless you forgive them - RUN!!!!
Throw them out too. Every time you read "forgive" in terms of relating to Narcs, replace it with "Forgo". You must forgo them. Once you know what they are and then go on remaining as their target, the drain on your self-esteem is a running open sore which will only heal when you free your soul from their domination and exploitation.
There is not just "life after Narcs". It's the best life you will ever have, and you will become your best self as the cloud of oppression, suppression and energy feeding of the Narcs becomes an ever more distant memory. You can do it with support and validation, and HOM is a powerful source of both.
"That's it, I'm DONE" came after I looked into the indefinite future and realistically could not see any hope for change. Ever..."
DeleteTW, that's what happened with me too. I hadn't seen MN mother and MN sister in a few years and then I went to visit them. I wasn't hoping, I was expecting that time and distance had given them the opportunity to reflect and see the errors of their ways, and that they would alter their behavior. No such luck! What I discovered was that not only did they not change, they had indeed gotten a lot worse. It was that Christmas that I realized they were not normal and that in order to protect my mental and emotional health I had to stay the hell away from them. Yes indeedy Anna, there is nothing self-serving in self protection. It's our most basic human right. I refuse to be part of any system - I don't care if it's labelled "family" - that denies me my most basic human right. Period, end of story.
I too come from an entire family of narcissists. I am the younger of two sons. My mother and my brother are MNs. Father, I think, is not malignant, but he is MNM's enabler and over the years I've come to realize he doesn't actually care about me. He was emotionally absent, leaving all the childrearing (or what passed for it) to my mother. Many times when talking to me, he couldn't even remember my name, confusing me with my brother!
ReplyDeleteMy NMother and NBrother are definitely the get-angry-with-you feeding-off-your-pain type. Between the ages of 10 and 14, I wass bullied at school. It was hell with my schoolmates, the worst period of my entire life (and one with very-long-lasting psychological consequences). One day was particulary bad. I came home crying, and after telling these two through tears what had happened, do you know what their reaction was? My mother beat me, and my brother scolded me. All for "not knowing how to defend myself". I got warned that if I didn't "defend myself" against my schoolmates' beatings, they would beat me up in addition.
When I remember this today, I think they should be killed. They wrote themselves out of the human race that day, as well as many other days.
The Accountant, welcome. Your father sounds incredibly self-absorbed. Once, a few years ago, my N father - who is divorced from MN mother - waited in his car as I ran in to pick-up something from a store. As I walked back towards his car, he just stared at me, and when I stood in front of the car waiting for him to unlock the door, he just sat there staring straight ahead. Finally, I banged on the window and he unlocked the door. When I got in the car he said to me, "I was watching you walk down the street and I said to myself that's not Lisette, is it?" Huh?! I was only gone for 5 minutes!! He looked right at MN sister at my grandmother's funeral and then turned to me and said, "I wonder if your sister is going to come?" I said, "You just stared right at her!!" They are "absent" in every way.
DeleteYou NMother and NBrother are hateful bullies. Sounds like their ego got a beating when you got a physical one at school. Monsters! "They wrote themselves out of the human race that day, as well as many other days." Nicely put. That's exactly what they do.
Thank you for your welcome, Lisette. This is actually the first time I comment on an ACON blog. It feels somehow weird to be speaking out about my experience, after essentially keeping it to myself for years.
Delete"Sounds like their ego got a beating when you got a physical one" - you may have a point there. I think NMother saw me as an extension of herself, given that in my adult years she took my moving out as a personal insult, then pressured me for attention (like demanding that I call her twice a week), and all that time tried to manipulate me into continuing to live with her, so that I can "take care of her in her old age". The worst part is, for a time I partially believed her, and seriously worried about what to do about her care.
Oh, and there were the overtures to that in the years before. Like when I was in university and came home for the weekend or for the holidays, some of the regular questions were: "Are you sad to go [back to uni]?" "Do you like it better here [at home] or there?" Hey, I knew back then that was emotional blackmailing!
Well, the solution to her care is clear now: The fucking bitch will fend for herself for the rest of her days (or have my asshole brother for company - that oughta be good). I've been NC for several years, first with my parents, then with the scumbag sibling, then with the compromised extended family. Actually, I went NC before I even knew about Narcissism! It was after my own attempt at reconciliation, to which she responded with an incredible verbal assault (a backward reaction if I ever saw one) that it finally dawned on me: "This woman is insane."
Thank you for your blog. And thank you for giving me the opportunity to say this. I actually feel lighter now.
Yk, all the "Collateral Damage" does make ya wonder, "Is it me or what?" I also NC'd the sibling and the extended family as well as Psychob long before the internet, self-help books etc. It's really a challenge when you're stumbling out there alone. The introspection for me was intense and over a period of years.
DeleteI found over the years "the one that got away" has had a much more fulfilling life in every way both internally and externally.
IMO, we're the sane ones in "The Family" aka, "The MN Mob." And over the years, that's been confirmed repeatedly. Glad you're here, TA.
TW
Thanks, TW. "The introspection for me was intense and over a period of years" - indeed. In the first few years after cutting contact, I argued with myself almost daily that I did nothing wrong. Still, I won the argument every time - "I had no better alternative."
DeleteI did it in the age of the internet (I am in my late thirties now, have been NC for about five years), yet it still took time to find out what the real problem was. I didn't even recognize my family in the DSM definition of NPD. It was mainly through personal sites and blogs, which I started reading a few years into NC, that I understood what narcissism is.
One additional irony is that while NM portrays me as evil incarnate for leaving her, by doing that I have probably saved her life. Had I stayed with her, I am sure it would have ended with my killing her, killing myself, or both.
I certainly hope to have a "fulfilling life in every way both internally and externally", as you put it. I feel like I am just starting to get there, the time until now having been only the first phase of recovery - convincing myself that I did nothing wrong, fighting off guilt. But now I am sure. The same to you all!
“Where does all their irrational hatred come from? That is the question. Lack of empathy and lack of conscience is one thing, but that all consuming, unrelenting drive to go out of their way to destroy, is another. What the fuck drives these wild animals is beyond all imagination. It's as if they feel they need to hunt and stalk and destroy in order to survive.”
ReplyDeleteDear Lisette, I’d like to answer your question in the comment you’ve posted in Rumblestripq’s post ‘She say keel it before it grow’ (March 27 2013) in this comment section. Of course this is all couloured by my own understanding of and experience with the whole sordid phenomenon.
Quote from Stalking the Soul by Marie-France Hirgoyen: “The root of the process [of becoming an abusive narcissist] begins with creating an empty self out of mirror images, just a a robot is built to imitate life and seem human.” (Couldn’t resist this quote from the book regarding your blog title, which I love.)
The empty self is a black hole where a heart should be. They chose this construct in order to avoid suffering (sadness, depression), but an inevitable consequence of this choice is that they are also incapable of feeling the good things (joy, satisfaction, love, connectedness). It’s a package deal. There is no substance to narcissists. That’s why they need to feed of from others and because of the black hole it's never enough.
The irrational hatred and wish to destroy come from their deep-seeted envy –the cause of their rage- of those who are alive inside. The narcissist somehow senses in others they have something good that (s)he hasn't but cannot acknowledge this, because that would indicate imperfection. So instead of following the good example and try to improve themselves, they want to destroy their object of envy. If they can't have it, nobody will.
They do in fact need to hunt, stalk and destroy in order to survive. Otherwise they would have to look inward and face the void. There would be nothing left of them, an existential nightmare. So they project their own evil outside themselves. Ruining other people's lives is an effective distraction from reality.
Seeing their victim suffering proves to them that they are superior after all and it soothes their envy for a short time, so they don't have to be aware of the powerful green-eyed monster tormenting them. The only thing reason I can think of as why they enjoy it so much is that this is one of the few ways they are able to feel alive or feel anything at all. I think the drug of sadism is a lot stronger than that of admiration.
So in a way this destructive urge could be called a defense mechanism, but I can't even begin to express my hatred of this explanation for narcissistic abuse because of the blatant injustice it reeks of. They attack without any provocation whatsoever for entertainment. I say it is an attack mechanism in order to preserve the evil construct the parasites created for themselves.
Rosa
Rosa, Respectfully, I dunno about this author's observations re: the MN's inability to feel "the good things." After assaulting me with some sort of IED, Psychob appeared to be positively elated and full of "joy, satisfaction, connectedness" as demonstrated by both her words and behaviors. There was a positive correlation between the increasing pain she inflicted and the more heightened her positive internal response as manifested in words and actions. (Ditto MNsis.) From the trademark Smirk/Laughter in response to someone's pain to the re-telling of the event(s), the MN revels in the Target's pain courtesy of the MN. Further, the Spin placed on the event(s) portray the MN as the "victim" and the Target as the "abuser" or somehow deserving of the MN's nastiness. Their sense of superiority/entitlement is a constant and they certainly are "Oriented x3" ie, they're fully "present" while engaging with others. No where is that more manifest than in the MN's carefully crafted imposition of pain typically behind closed doors or out of public view: They KNOW exactly what they're doing and they KNOW it's wrong. Otherwise, all the clandestinely imposed pain, the Spin and the Cover-Ups wouldn't be necessary. The reality they expend so much effort to exculpate themselves while drowning the Target in a commercial-sized septic tank speaks to their determination to annihilate the Target. And Mon Dieu, are they absolutely relentless in their Destruction Campaign-a veritable "Scorched Earth Policy." As you observed, "...an attack mechanism..."
DeleteJust IMO and FWIW.
This reminds me of the Troll who left a comment about Lisette's "lack of interest in the etiology of MNs" and their reference to the "wounding of the false self" a few Posts ago. How I wish some of these authors/"researchers" would spend some (considerable) time with ACoNs: I do believe they'd be much more firmly grounded in reality instead of theoretical constructs, yk?
Rosa, your thoughts? Feelings? Anyone?
TW
Hi Rosa, The question I posed on q1605's blog was more of a rhetorical one to make a point about The Barbarian's (q1605's mother) savage behavior. Though I appreciate your attempt to enlighten me. I read Stalking the Soul about 5 years ago, and as I was reading the book, I took point form notes. A few years later, I started my blog and inserted those notes in the post "MN Parent as Soul Stalker." In that post, I also added points from Peck's People of the Lie. I am also familiar with the MN's pathological envy and greed and have written posts on those topics as well. As far as Hirgoyen's theories - meh. At the time I read the book, I was looking for something, ANYTHING that would suggest that these pieces of shit are completely destitute. But I never viewed their barren inner lives as defence mechanism or rational explanations for their behavior. No way, no how. Evil just is. Though it's good to know how they behave so we can make attmepts to protect ourselves. But who really knows what goes on inside them. I would ask an MN, but I know they would lie. I figure evil will remain a puzzle as long as it is viewed as one. And let's face it, there are many who can profit in some way from claiming to have cracked the code. From my experience, those who have truly experienced the existence of these evil pieces of shit, call it as they see it. And, IMO, the most credible so-called experts freely admit they don't know why "they" are the way they are. Anna made a good point about swallowing these theories whole. Since your post, you, Anna and TW have all made kick ass points about all this theoretical stuff and I don't believe I have anything more to add, except - thanks all!
DeleteTundra Woman, I am concinced that when a MN is feeling good, like your Psychob, it is fundamentally different from when we do on all levels. I've seen the smirking nastiness in action myself and it is besides loathsome, pathetic. And for them, things like love and connectedness are only words. (And thinking about it, there aren't many “levels” to a N. It never seizes to amaze me how mindbogglingly shallow they are.)
DeleteI remember that troll who was all about “the poor wounded narcissist” comment, that boils down to: understanding = accepting abuse. That is in no way my kind of understanding. Mine means 'get away, stay away, do not engage. Fight like hell if necessary.'
Lisette, My appologies for my misplaced little lecture on your rhetorical questions at Q's. In a way I've used you to try to answer my own 'Why?' (the question that remains in spite of all the theories and everything) while you are the one who's already written so much and so well about it.
Rosa
I don't see that the core sadism of MN is explained by psychological theories of emptiness and envy; I see those theories more as as an attempt to explain their core sadism away. Emptiness? Envy? I substitute those 'causative' words with the other 'e' word: Evil. I am glad you added the last paragraph, which seems in total contrast to the rest of your post, Rosa, though Mn is anot any kind of defence mechanism IMO, it is a way of being.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you, Anna, that their malignancy is a way of being. I didn’t make it clear enough that to me evil equates to that emptiness at their core. And that they choose that evil construct all by themselves.
DeleteYou are right about the contrast between the last and the other paragraphs. The first ones are my rational attempts at explanation. The last one is more about my feelings and my conviction that there is something fundamentally wrong with the defense theory. They attack and force their targets into a defensive position.
Rosa
And by logical extension, if - however well we may mean in doing it - we reduce evil to merely a (negative) psychological defence mechanism, then goodness also would have to come under the same one-dimensional explanation (a "positive" defence mechanism).
ReplyDeleteIMO, these explanations are so convenient for abusers, especially MNs, because they reduce all their evil to mere REACTIONS, not actions arising from their ill will, their will-to-power. If you look at the underbelly of defence mechanism excuses for their evil, it lets them off the hook ("they know not what they do, so how can they be responsible for it") and it blames the victims in a very subtle way for the way MNs behave (they were only reacting to your actions, even if your only action was to not understand them as tragic narcissistically wounded creatures) therefore YOU are guilty of ignorance and not "understanding" them. (Hey, you lose again!)
This is why I view nearly all uni-dimensional psychological explanations of MN as analgous to bait on a hook, and if we swallow that, the underlying danger is that their hook may lodge in our throats and silence our voices again.
Writers like Peck and in some ways Koontz have provided me with more illumination than any of the many social sciences I studied.
I’d like to clear up this misunderstanding. I don’t mean at all that evil is merely a defense mechanism against misunderstanding the poor wounded narcissist. Not by far. Narcissists know exactly what they are doing and I take their evil very seriously. They are not wounded and no explanation lets them off the hook. On the contrary.
DeletePsychological theories and even more personal blogs have helped me so much to understand what is really going on. (‘People of the Lie’ has been a particular eye-opener.) And specifically that the victim is not to blame whatsoever. I needed that understanding to overrule my misplaced feelings of guilt and to be able to go NC with my NM two years ago. The hardest but one of the best decisions of my life.
Rosa
Thanks, Rosa. My question above overlapped with your responses. I agree FWIW: Learning about other AC's experiences from other ACs has been far more helpful than all the theoretical constructs "out there."
DeleteI'm inevitably left with the sense so many of the authors/researchers simply don't want to accept evil as a REALITY, not some abstract phenomena. IMO, it's just not all that complicated and all the airy-fairy "Theories" don't mitigate the real damage they inflict. And NO, they're not all in jail or prison by any shot but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be confined somewhere-I'm sure we can come up with some great ideas of just where that might be ;)
I really wish they'd spend more of their efforts in assisting the Survivors or at least increasing awareness, making people/societies at large aware these people exist, here's how to identify them, here's how to avoid-or better yet, get OUT and stay out of any future involvement with them. Obviously, that's not always possible (I'm thinking of a work situation here) but even in that situation, I'd be actively seeking another employment situation.
Again, thanks!
TW
I hear what you are saying Rosa, and there was a time (long ago)when I too tried to find a rational explanation
Deletefor them. Which was a complete waste of my time. It's like poking at a sleeping snake with a stick and trying to rationally figure out which part of you, and from what angle, it will strike once the stick prods it into enraged awakening. The only rational certainty you can be sure of in that situation is that you will come off worse.
Mindgames is their thing: they have become Olympic Champions experts at it. (The Narc rule book: "You call it cheating, I call it winning.") Our trying to oppose them with the same weapons will almost always be self-defeating (they have decades more experience in honing their expertise before we even wake up and name them).
Our strength to resist them resides in our souls and in our hearts - and it always did, long before we knew that. That is why and how we endured and survived them as children, when we had no rational sophistication at all.
We did not know what love really was, but we keenly knew and felt the absence of love, which informed our awareness in a very powerful way. We looked at nature and animals and/or whatever we perceived with our own souls as goodness manifest in the world, and knew instinctively that we had some rightful place in the whole of things which was not present in our lives.
We knew this long before we had such descriptions and perceptions and literacy to form such thoughts. Later, of course, we could name and describe what was absent and what had confronted us. I have a theory that we may not have slept as other children sleep - that we either 'slept with one eye open' - or slept the sleep of utter emotional exhaustion - temporary and almost complete oblivion.
Looking back at myself as a child, I seem to be sleepwalking, numbed out through half of my days when I was near to them and the other half was spent in the active, physical overdrive of terror, trying to anticipate the next attack. I had to mentally catalogue for ready reference every expression on their faces, every variety of tone in their voices, every conjugation of their physical movements as an instant reference warning system to alert me. Even so, they were experts at blindsiding me with new forms of attack. It's a wonder my mind wasn't worn out by adolescence, given my over-reliance on it as a child, and the cost of having had to do so expressed itself as an overwhelming physical weariness at age 14.
I don't want the psychological establishment to spend more of their efforts assisting survivors - we are best placed to assist ourselves from drawing upon the knowledge and perception of our common experiences and exposures to Narcs - IMO psychologists can do no more for us than witchdoctors - pyschology has defined itself for 80 years as the "study of behaviour" - and has yet to articulate the behaviour of malignant narcs in any cohesive way to the general popluation. And after 80 years, it never will. At best, the goal of modern psychology is not to prevent human harm but to explain it away. Well, we don't want the harm done to us explained away. We want to name it, oppose it, expose it, limit it, and strip away the concealments of the perpetrators. We want the truth of their behaviour to set people truly free of it. At least, that's what what I want. U bet!!!
Anna, I can't help but wanting to find the explanation for evil. At the same time I stay as far as I can away from them and at this point I'm finally rid off them. Though I dread the time having to find another job, which means no guaranties for a narc-free environment. The idea makes me literally nauseous. But for now I have the energy for it.
DeleteI'm familiair with their poisonous mind games and all the dirty tricks in the book. The worst were the shock attacks out of the blue. Exhausting. I know what you mean, I've developped a danger radar myself. But you just can't anticipate every attack, that's what their shock-and-awe tactics are designed for. Being alert all the time caused me severe depression and an anxiety disorder/constant panic attacks.
I reached the lowest point of that in my twenties (20 years ago)and went to therapy for it. That didn't help much (expect for some practical breathing exercises for hyperventilation). For example, even after I had told about the delight my Nparents took in their abuse, the psychologist said later about them something like "They did the best they could." What kind of assumption is that? It couldn't have been concluded from what I've told them. In fact it was harmful because I still believed back then that for the most part I was the problem. I wish there had been internet back then.
Even if psychologist were to accept the possibility of evil and side with the victims, the N's will make use of that. We know how good they already are at posing as the victim and make us look bad. These opportunists will point at us with accusations of being evil.
The naming, opposing and exposing by all these bloggers have helped me like never before and it wonderful to find out that goes for a lot of people. Especially the NC advice.
Rosa
This "they did the best they could" is IMO a vicious form of psychological revictimisation and surfs upon of the professional-client power imbalance. It is also a not-so-subtle form of client-shaming (if you half a brain, Rosa, you would have realised they did the best they could!!! This great psychologist knows that, and she has never even met them!!!) You obviously don't know what has been staring you in the face all these years! They are only doing their best for you!!! (Sorry about all the exclamation marks, I didn't want anyone to think I was being anything other than ironic about yet another of these fuck-witted psychologists).
DeleteHow should such a fuckwit be responded to? Could we brainstorm that? Here's a start: "So is that the best YOU can do, tell me they did the best they could do? Being a psychologist, you must have some empirical evidence for that. I'd sure love to see it sometime..." These toxic reinforcers of narcissistic privilege NEED SHAMING.
I found this elegant, unattributed comment on the net as a proposed response to the TDTBTC mindfuck:
Delete"THEY DIDN'T DO THE BEST THAT THEY COULD,THEY DID WHAT THEY DID."
Yes, that's the barebones truth of it. And what they did was calculated evil.
Some responses of mine to TDTBTC:
Delete- Where did you get that idea? Have you ever met them?
- They sure did ... for themselves. They were trying so hard they couldn't be bothered with their pesky kids.
- Thanks for pointing that out. It has never occurred to me. Silly me. Now excuse me, I have a shrine to make for these saints.
What about pearls of wisdom like "But they are family." or "You must forgive them." or "Being a victim is your own choice." Sheer betrayal against common sense.
Rosa
Yup, it's all about control...through pain, confusion, mind games, etc...
ReplyDeleteIt's astonishing to think that a mother could do this to her own child but our prisons are full of people who do terrible things to others people and to their own family.
I think M. Scott Peck nailed it in his book, there are people who choose to be evil. And I believe there's a special place in hell for them.
Kudos to everyone who has stopped contact with these predators, you made the right choice!
Great article it really nails it and the part about how no one believes you doubling the pain, is very very accurate. I have faced facts that my mother is evil even on a spiritual level. Sure she may smile and look nice and fool the majority of the world including many family members but I know she enjoyed my pain and turning people against me as the family scapegoat. One facial expression that was always displayed was "THE SMIRK". I suffered big time and now realize I was set up to fail and suffer in a variety of ways. Even the way that narcs raise you always jumping up and being concerned about their needs instead of your own is a set up for that ACON to fail in the world and replicate the abuse they poured out on you. I remember my mother's narc family laughing and mocking at me, even at times I was in pain and distress. There never was any empathy. Having both a N/P father and mother it was unbelievable how bad things got. Your blog article here has made me think out how they CHOOSE the way they were. I had nothing to do with it, I was just the target. I think people choose to be evil too. Today I thank God I know it wasn't me and there was finding out what was happening.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I think the Ns definitely choose to behave the way they do. God gave us free will for a reason. How you choose to conduct yourself in this life shows who you really are, deep down inside.
ReplyDeleteThanks for telling us we made the right choice to cut these Ns out of our lives. It feels good to be validated for something most of society still condemns us for. - Jean Jeanie
Today I am thinking about how, until quite recently, the official psychological explanation of what drives the Bully was a lack of self esteem. Now it has flipped 180 degrees, and the O.P.E. is that the Bully has an excess of self esteem. As I see it, that's all that academic psychology has ever done - formulate a theory and then select whichever part of the evidence fits, then announce that the highly selective evidence is objective, observation-based "empirical" proof.
ReplyDeleteWhat does this do for victims? Pretty much zero. What does it do for academic psychologists? The rewards can be high: papers and books to publish, reputations to build, academic ladders to climb, clients to charge, popular fame and admiration.
Along the way victims do find some incidental validation from the academically-sanctioned theories. And for a validation-starved victim, this may appear as and feel like a tremendous leap forward (though it makes me think of a mouse nearly dead from hunger eyeing up the cheese in a mousetrap).
Perhaps all of us here have deeply pondered the question: what is healing and how do I achieve it? It is hardly surprising that we search far and wide for answers given the magnitude of suffering the MNs have caused us. We find bits here, bits there, though these bits don't provide whatever we need to unite the pieces of our traumatised Self which are functioning like an orchestra which is playing different tunes all at once. The competing theories become a discordant, confusing and often unbearable cacophony that can make us feel hopeless and stuck.
So I found no healing there. The foundation stone of my healing was about claiming: claiming my perceptions; claiming my feelings; claiming my voice; claiming my right to be me; claiming my safety; claiming my space; claiming my self-protection; claiming my right to adult freedom and dignity. These all stem from internal experiences, not healing that is "out there" centred in someone else or somewhere else.
There were immensely important external experiences that enabled the inner healing journey to proceed: these were validation, support, time, acceptance and (above all) love. And the providers of the externals were, almost without exception, other survivors.
This may only be true for me, I realise, not others. However I post it to share where I am coming from, and as I claimed back all that had been stolen from me, the parts of my torn-apart self merged back into a person who experienced wholeness and freedom (possibly wholeness and freedom are the same thing in different words). I love that we are free of these monsters, I celebrate it every second of every day.
Here's an article that articulates the evil quality of MNs.
ReplyDelete(Google to locate it by entering this:)
"The Difference Between Sick and Evil" by Andrew Vachss
Hi Lisette,
ReplyDeleteI appreciate the little old lady comments because that is what I am dealing with. My MNMIL looks like Mrs. Clause who is just about to pull cookies out of the oven at any minute. She plays the poor little old lady card and yet she is invigorated with the evil that she perpetrates.
She abandoned her husband in his 80`s right when she started to smell and have health concerns. It is due to her that he died, he fell and since she abandoned him there was no one to find him. He fell at night. Yet she painted herself as the victim as she drove away abandoning him and the excuses that are made for her, as if she hold no responsiblity even after he died. It was her neglect, she elder abused her own husband while claiming that he was the one elder abusing her.
She spent his funeral grandstanding about herself and how great and holy and flawless she apparently is. Next she was still playing victim of FIL, FIL never loved her....and she was looking to everyone else to convince her that her loveless marriage had any love in it. She found a way to be victimized by a dead person, what a poor mistreated soul she is!
Five days after his death and she has a list all ready of what DH can do for her. Apparently all that was wrong with her trying to spousify her son was that she had a husband. So now that her husband is dead, she apparently is entitled to mine, we are to step aside as he serves and worships her. This is apparently cultural, and I am to step aside for this cultural expectation.
Now, since she enjoyed the attention so much of all those meetings executing FILs will, she is wanting to do the meetings that would take place after her death now, and she wants to be involved.
So she is using the estate buy attention, all these estate planning meetings that take up so much time and so much energy and then in the end, she does nothing with it, never probably had any intention to, it is a carrot she is dangling. She changes the plan as often as she changes her underwear. It is for attention, I can see that.
She is milking every drop of attention she can out of her husbands passing and from what I have heard of other MNs at widowhood, this is a pretty common occurence. She is not grieving, she is dancing in his death.
Sweet little old helpless lady....yeah right! Yet she plays the role and people fall for it.
Wow. I hope your husband sees through this stuff? Cultural or not, poaching on your AC's isn't appropriate under any circumstances. "It's a carrot she is dangling. She changes the plan..." according to how "responsive" to Mummy-Dearest your DH is, attempting to buy his compliance. MN's and money/resources are always about Power and Control in my experience: "Be a "good lap-dawg" and all THIS (insert wide sweeping of arms) will be YOUR'S!"
ReplyDeleteYeah, BS. The more helpful you are, the more ammo it gives her across the board to continue to sow the seeds of massive disruption among family members. Those cheap-ass, greedy MNs assume everyone has a "price." Simply because they do. Ultimately, "The Estate Plan" will screw your DH, no matter what he "does" or "fails" to do. The big "winner" is Fido-the-Dog or Fluffy-the-Cat or better yet, someone who has nothing to do with the family or has been particularly nasty to you and/or DH.
They are such prolific liars. After Psychob's death, I finally found her "Oh-BITCH!-uary" on line. I sat with my lap top reading and LMAO: Her final "work of fiction" was an absolutely priceless! I had been 18 yrs. NC at that point but right up to her death, she left a "Legacy" of massive lies, distortions-just unbelievable. (Mother Theresa would a blushed.) Too bad no one fact-checks this stuff.
TW
TW- You crack me up! "Oh-BITCH!-uary"...I love it!
Deleteohhh, it gets *better* yet! (I feel like Bob Barker here, but I can't resist, OK?) Yk those cards the Funeral Home gives out-the ones that look like holy cards but are actually a form of advertising? Well, MNsis sends me one a few years later. Now remember, we're talking about Psychobitch-The Diva of Drama, The Mistress of Mayhem, The Queen of Chaos, right?
DeleteSo the front of the card has a pix of St. Francis of Assisi feeding the birds. I thought, "Well, that's nice...she always liked birds. It was PEOPLE she couldn't stand." I flip it over and on the back top is her date of birth (haha, tee hee!) and date of death-that's likely right because she had no control over that. Then it starts with the Psalm, "Lord, Make me an instrument of your peace...." and BWHAHAHAAAAAHAHA-here, have a tissue :)
Remembering THIS lil' card remains to this day my personal "Gold Standard" Bladder Control Exercise!
TW
TW-Well, NMIL just put another nail in her coffin. She is so greedy and I noticed that with her, the trick is to let her feel the invigoration of this power she thinks she has, she will always go too far, and she did.
DeleteAfter my DH and I spent two days helping her with a project and then having her for Easter, she "thanked" us by handing SIL and I "thank you" cards on the way out. These cards were word for word and she basically attacked us, calling us stupid, projected herself onto us and she did this without thinking it was even the least bit inappropriate.
So MIL is greedy with power (although she claims SIL are the ones with her greed in the letter).
MILs health is not good, but since she is so perfect and thus can never be ill, instead she blames SIL and I for it, we are apparently destroying her health out of our greed and jealousy towards her.
So, MIL will isolate herself further and I will breathe a sigh of relief that she is gone once again.
She is near her death and she is crashing and burning on the way there, and I have to admit, I feel absolutely no sympathy for her, and I feel bad that I have none for her but perhaps that is normal in these circumstances. I would never hurt her but I don't care that she is ill either, infact I am relieved that the end of her is hopefully coming soon. What a relief that will be!
We are not poisoning her or doing anything to her, she is poisoning herself with her hidden drinking problem, but blaming us with every glass she puts in her ugly mouth.
I read, "...and then having her for dinner" and my thought was, "WOW! WHAT A GREAT IDEA! Light up the grill, baby!"-
Deleteand then re-read the sentence in context. (I've had a coupla strokes.)
sigh.
Maybe the next time you see her, you could beat her to the Card Punch and hand her one you'd give to a deceased family member. With a few "Personalized Notes."
Boy howdy, do you *ever* have my sympathy. But "Liberation from MNMILSituation" is at hand.
TW
one of so many things I don't understand; okay, they THRIVE on causing or exacerbating pain. most of me accepts that. what i cannot understand is why my family of MN's all get along [except for my dad who passed away a few years ago. and even he would unite with them to hurt others]with each other but chose ME [I know they were already active in making me the scapegoat by the time I was four years old.] to be the scapegoat.
ReplyDeleteI am pretty much NC with the 2 leaders of the "borg" since shortly after being diagnosed with bc and have actually avoided family holidays well before then, ever since my dad died. I idiotically decided to celebrate Easter with my family. I figured that since there would be a few people I love there that I would be hurting myself by not going. after all, i figured, now that i know what they are and have gotten 'so much stronger emotionally"[where i got that idea I don't know] that I would join the family gathering.
Okay, it never happened. not because I "came to my senses", but because of one of their attacks before the get-together when they found out I would be attending.. I can't go into it both because what happened is too raw and because i feel so stupid.
thank you for being here.
Vicky
Trying to "understand" narcs while you are still in their target range is like trying to learn to swim when you are drowning. Understanding them isn't what you need to do right now. It's a luxury we can afford ourselves once we are safe and our lives and selves have peace and stability.
DeleteThe struggle to "understand them" steals your time, energy, and stifles your understanding of the impacts of their malignant narcissim on YOU. As long as you struggle to udnerstand them, you are giving to them. Understanding is an almighty trap - like a net a fish is caught in - it struggles to understand why it can't just swim away. We aren't fish, and being human, we can swim away.
This is my view of the trap of understanding: it links us to them as if we are in a trance, spellbound and made passive. They know that at some level - Narcs are very aware of any vulnerability in their targets. You are in terrible pain right now, yet notice that you giving them more energy, by trying to understand "why all these MNs get along with each other".
It doesn't matter why they do. It's totally irrelevant to your own welfare and survival right now. You don't have to understand ANYTHING about MNs to start deep healing other than that they are evil and committed to the destruction of your life on any level they can get at it.
Perhaps think about this: suppose that I had a magic wand right here and now, which could grant the immediate gift of understanding Narcs, and waved it over you. There! Done! You understand them! In what way has your life changed? Do you think that is what healing is, "understanding them"?
I don't. To me healing is personal, it's ending the trance of lies and worthlessness they inflicted on us. It's noticing how we have lived our lives in the past AS IF the lies they told us WERE TRUE.
It is true that the truth can set us free. But the truth can't set us free while any part of us continues to believe their lies.
Collectively, all of Lisette's blogs here describe most of the lies MNs use; any example she gives which you notice you have trouble believing may be a powerful clue to the ones that are still keeping hostage?
Awareness is so powerful - it shifts our sense of not being worthy of our own lives, healing, safety, joy. IMO awareness heals, understanding traps; they are two very different things.
Wow, Anna, thanks for that amazing post. I finally understand why my trying to understand NMIL was so damaging. So many people tried to tell me and I just did not get it until I read what you wrote here.
DeleteI think understanding too much can be an issue too. There were times that I felt I could see her soul, feel her energy and what I was seeing was like watching a disturbing video,one that damages because it is so perverse.
Some things need to be blocked. It is all about energy and not all energy is good for us, not all energy is worthy of participating in.
I hope you are feeling lighter and more free of pain. I surmise that the main reason we go on tolerating/wanting to continue any contact with Narcs is because of the belief that took root in our disordered emotional starving childhoods: that love was the same thing as any attention and/or approval.
DeleteThat confusion keeps the old abuse going and invites new abusers into our lives.
Really looking for how that belief has operated in our past lives can be a very illuminating thing to do.
It was a major learning curve for me to learn how to discriminate between receiving genuine attention/approval and exploitative, manipulative attention/approval. (I'm still learning). I went from accepting/naming every instance of "a + a" as love to rejecting every instance as a a suspect manipulation. The balance point is a challenge to learn when you have had no role models nor teachers with your interests at heart, a huge challenge - though like all chapters of the journey to freedom, it's worth it. (The seesaw of our childhood didn't have a balance point, they were way up in the air, our end was permanently on the ground). You can't balance that, you have to hop off and walk away, create your own seesaw, learn the balancing act from scratch.
I feel like the only way we will truly understand them is if we were like them. From what I have witnessed with family narcs is that they don't get along all the time. The only time they are getting along is when they are all getting their way and stay in their places that the head narcs have chosen for them. Other than that, they are fighting with each other.
ReplyDeletesuper short. i almost cancelled my health insurance today. they nearly succeeded in convincing me that i was selfish because i won't quit my meds. i was told that since i was so tired and nonproductive that it would be better for me to die in a year than to hang on for 5 years. wait, let me correct myself. I was not told that i should go off of chemo and my insurance. I was told that is what THEY would do because it would be selfish not to.['and that's how you are, vicky. that's why noone in the family can stand you because you take everything personally. I don't even know why i'm talking to you. You have done so many vile things and don't you dare start crying and begging me to be specific. there are too many to remember any of them.but everyone in the family agrees."}
ReplyDeleteI know i sound hysterical. probably because i am. the person who said these things on friday is one i love with all my heart. i still do not know if she is MN or if they "got to her."]LONG horrible story]
I cannot get my words down. Is there any way I can give out my number and talk to one of you. My number is 303-704-0290.
Anon, you need to get the hell away from these people for you're own sake.They are not going to change and will continue to screw with your head. This is what they do.They are deranged...
DeleteVicky, you are telling us here that feel that you are, in more ways than one, fighting for your life, that the Narcs have their hooks deep into your body and mind, and you are in so much pain and confusion from the terrible inner inpacts of all this that you are desperate for some kind of escape. But perhaps Vicky, there is also a subtext going on in this too, for you. I get the sense (it's an intuitive feeling, it's not based on anything I can rationally explain or reflect) that the subtext involves a deeply ingrained (and untrue) belief in you that you can't survive without them. When we are in the huge amount of pain that you are clearly now in, then IMO there is always a lie about them, and our experience of them, that we are still blindly telling ourselves at some level. You must find that lie (it may be more than one lie). It could be that you have been conditioned to believe you cannot survive without them (you can). Or that they owe you justice and support and... and so you are going to stick around until they supply it (they never will, they will only exploit any form of need you have or hold on to). Think of them as poison. When you make your morning coffer, or whatever you have for breakfast each day for sustenance, ask yourself thoughtfully: would I drink this if they had put poison in it? (No, you wouldn't, you want to survive or you wouldn't be here). Then reflect: they are the poison, and they are poisoning your life. I feel for your pain and desperation. I know what it is to be very seriously ill with cancer and to feel unsupported and undermined. Even in that dire circumstance, you have to create safety for yourself. When we are in great pain, I know that seems impossible. We say "But I can't, because..." Survival in these dire circumstances means acting as though the because doesn't exist - because you are really worth it, you deserve a better life, you deserve peace, safety, healing and to live Narc-free. Sometimes the hurt child in us with huge unmet needs is so attached to the hope that they will come through for us at last if only things get bad enough, even these monsters would show some compassion. They won't Vicky, they don't do compassion, they only feed off suffering. I am very concerned about you, I hope you are not further upset by what I have written.
DeleteAs the other commenters have said, Vicky, don't let them meddle with your mind. Only you can determine if you wish to live, how you wish to live, and for how long. What kind of creature would say things like, "I don't even know why i'm talking to you" and the rest of your quote? Phrases like that are a clear attempt at manipulation.
DeleteI too suggest you cut them off immediately. From my own personal experience, I can say that nothing you could possibly hope to get from them is worth the price. (For example, I left most of my personal belongings behind when I literally fled MN mother's house. It hurts to have lost my mementos, books, documents, etc., but the alternative would have been incomparably worse. I also expect to be disinherited, I would be surprised if it were otherwise. As regards the loss of a relationship, luckily I knew right then that there was none. Our interactions were an empty shell.) It's not easy, I know. But those of us who have gone NO CONTACT are all the better for it.
From your other comments I notice that you are already NC with at least some of them. As long as you feel you are in danger, keep at it. After I went NC with my parents, I had some resistance to going NC with my brother and the extended family as well. Someone had said in the past that the one person who starts cutting contact with everyone around them must be the one with the problem, and that thought had stuck in my mind. Bullshit! Just keep cutting them as needed. You need to remove yourself from EVERYONE who would hurt you.
I wish you all the best.
TA
"I also expect to be disinherited, I would be surprised if it were otherwise."
DeleteMy exact thoughts.
"Someone had said in the past that the one person who starts cutting contact with everyone around them must be the one with the problem,and that though had stuck in my mind.Bullshit!"
Exactly... It is bs...
They have already disinherited you, they disinherited you from receiving human worth from the beginning. The money is only another symbol of that. For many of them, money is what they use to define their human net worth. That's how disordered they are.
DeleteWho CARES what they "think?" It's *not* their life, choice, business.
ReplyDeleteHere: I'm handing you a cyber chain-saw: It's set to rock-'n-roll. Just wave it around in front of you and I can assure you, considering the population of MNs to "appears to be semi-human," blind-folded and in the dark, you should be able to make a wide and very productive swath through what appears to be a significant concentration of the world's most offensive people. At about an 18" bar length.
Consider it an act of kindness to yourself (and the rest of the world) if not out-right self-preservation!
TW
I don't know if this will help, but the opposite is often true. The MNs want you to believe that you will not survive without them, but in many cases, you are the key to their survival. Think about it. They've created a false world, with you cast as the antagonist. They are united in vilifying you. When you pull yourself out of the role of doormat, their world collapses. Turns out the doormat was holding the whole thing together.
ReplyDeleteUse the opportunity of their world imploding to extract yourself into your own witness protection system, by getting away from them and never turning back. They'll be distracted for a while, until they find a new victim.
The opposite is often true of what? What are you talking about?
Delete“The MNs want you to believe that you will not survive without them, but in many cases, you are the key to their survival.”
That’s not my experience. The MNs I know used guilt, manipulation, “family” obligation and pity ploys to try and make me believe that THEY need me. Yeah, they need us. They need to have access to us so they can abuse the living shit out of us, but if we say screw you, then they cry: “You’re abandoning us!”
“When you pull yourself out of the role of doormat, their world collapses. Turns out the doormat was holding the whole thing together.”
WTF?! Their world does not collapse. They view the escapee as a traitor and their bond of lies and collusion becomes stronger and the abuse ramps-up.
By the way, none of us are in the role of “doormat” as you describe. We were targeted and victimized. And, if you read my blog at all you would know that I’ve already written at length about what may happen to the MN’s world when the target goes NC.
“Use the opportunity of their world imploding to extract yourself into your own witness protection system, by getting away from them and never turning back.”
When the MN’s world is “imploding” as you describe, that is precisely when they arm themselves up for battle. And MNs love a good war - they live for war!
“They'll be distracted for a while, until they find a new victim.”
Oh really? So how do you explain MN parents who stalk their children for a lifetime? How do you explain the harassment, the flying monkeys and other tactics like hoovering to name a few?
And you don’t have to tell anyone here to get away from them and never turn back – we’ve already done that.
Why exactly are you here? What’s your experience with MNs? Are you an ACON or just some mealy-mouthed know it all? No, your comment didn't "help" but I believe your intention was to "help" youself to a platform to talk AT people from a position of above.
Sorry Lisette, but I agree with Anonymous on this one. I went NC with Punitive Borderline Cousin several years ago. I recently found out that when I gave her the boot, after years of her psychologically abusing me, she suddenly became Facebook friends with my NM brother ( whom she did nothing but verbally character assassinate when she and I were speaking -- she'd had no contact with him for thirty-odd years prior) and is NOW trolling for contact info on Nice Cousin, (with whom I am close) who she dumped forty some years ago when Nice Cousin's parents divorced. Fortunately, Nice Cousin has her number and wants nothing to do with her, but it's very obvious to me that Punitive Borderline is desperate for new human punching bags to replace the one she lost with my departure. Back then, I was a very willing doormat. I think we DO hold their fucked up shit together. And when we dump them their world collapses unless they find new victims.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, I can see why you agree with Anonymous. You CHOSE to be abused by your cousin. In your words: “I was a very willing doormat.”
DeleteHOM is primarily an ACON site so when some random Anonymous – like the one you agree with – doesn’t identify the nature of their relationship to a MN and makes a comment such as “pull yourself out of the doormat role.” I take offense to that and see it as a huge red flag. First off, Anonymous doesn’t even attempt to relate to anyone here, and as a result, positions themself above us as an unsolicited advice giver. Next, no ACON would refer to themselves as a “doormat.” Anonymous is suggesting that ACONs are a bunch of submissives that chose to be abused. I’ve been blogging long enough to spot someone who doesn’t belong. Unlike you, Anonymous, I wasn’t an adult who chose to be a “willing doormat” to some relative. I had no choice. I was a child that was scapegoated in my family of origin by an MN mother and MN sister and to some extent, an N father. As a child, I had nowhere to go to escape the abuse.
Also, do you really believe your cousin’s world fell apart when you gave her the boot? Sounds to me like she’s a predator who’s on the hunt for new prey; like an abusive N who gets his jollies abusing his girlfriend and when she dumps him, he simply goes on the prowl for a new one. I wouldn’t exactly call that “a world falling apart.” Now if your cousin became incapacitated, self-destructive and unable to function THAT would mean you held her world together. All you were was a punching bag to her, now she’s searching for a new one. That’s what these MNs do: they find themselves new prey, or, they go after the one that got away. So your cousin is going on Facebook and trolling for info. So she’s desperate for a new punching bag. So what. Who cares? Boo-fucking-hoo. You want to know whose world really falls apart? It's the victims of the MN's destruction: The children of MN parents and MN siblings who had no choice, and the poor unfortunates who unwittingly marry MNs or marry into MN families – that’s who.
I am sorry that you agree with Anonymous and you don’t see what is abundantly clear to me: that Anonymous is a gigantic waving red flag and is not to be trusted. Maybe when you become a little more observant you will be able to spot abusive attitudes and you won’t CHOOSE to be the willing doormat of a malignant narcissist.
a p.s. to my post. I forgot to add that Punitive Borderline Cousin is also one of the most malignant narcissists I have ever known. Wanted to make that very clear, lest you think I was comparing crazy apples to crazy oranges.
ReplyDeleteP.S. The post is "Malignant Narcissists Feed Off Your Pain." Anonymous #1 wrote: "the opposite is often true." Huh? So they don't feed off our pain? Anonymous #2 you are really quick to agree with someone who is incredibly vague. But then again, you were a willing doormat so it's not surprising. So if their world collapses without the doormat wouldn't that mean they - the MN - feed off others pain? Also, note how Anonymous #1 wrote: "They are united in vilifying you." That to me suggests Anonymous #1 was referring to more than just one MN, not some random cousin MN. But like many shady Anonymous', #1 has not come back to explain themself, and you #2 are suspiciously quick to agree with them.
DeleteMalignant narcissists are fucking cockroaches who will survive a nuclear war; they are parasites who will always find a host to feed off. Please Anonymous #1 and #2 give me examples of a MN's world falling apart. Give me an example of a MN suffering like their victim: loss of home, loss of job, loss of financial resources, loss of good name, loss of reputation, loss of relationships, loss of mental health, loss of emotional health, loss of physical health - that can all be attributed to the victim giving the MN the boot. And loss of control and narc rage doesn't count.
Come one Anoymous #1 and #2 pony up some concrete examples. I dare you.
"When you pull yourself out of the role of the doormat" "back then I was a willing doormat" The reason why YOU were/are a "willing doormat" is because you were/are one of their minions. You are one of them... The minions happily ablige that role the head narc/ narcs assign for them.
DeleteAnon # 1 and # 2 sound like the same person.
I can attest that a narcs world doesn't "fall apart."
Delete"Anon # 1 and # 2 sound like the same person."
DeleteLOL. Good call Anonymous!
Hi Lisette, it's late and my cognitive faculties are on the wane but let me simply say a few quick things. I think we're just talking about semantics and degrees here. When I agreed that their worlds fall apart, all I meant to imply is that these "chaos people" as my therapist likes to call them, are FURTHER thrown into chaos, further thrown into intense survival mode where they will always remain because they cannot change and are so empty on the inside. When a major supply source ( who helped fill a specific need) pulls out it does throw many of them for a huge loop. I know because I've pulled the plug on many of them over the last four or five years and all of them are desperate and spinning, trying a million different ways back into my brain, trying countless insane ploys to reattatch, trying to get the flow of supply going again. It makes them nuts. Loss of home, loss of job, no I cannot say I caused one of them to do that -- they take such good care of getting their primary needs met they'd have to be total fuckups to completely destroy their lives in all those areas, but that does not mean they do not experience significant psychological wounding. Losing a big source of supply is a huge loss of control. Do not underestimate it. Believe me, if Nasty Cousin went so far as to dig up my NM brother and Nice Cousin she abandoned years ago, she is DESperate. She's losing it. She's been crawling on the Sahara for a year and grabbing for anything that looks like a drink of water. The last thing I would EVER want to happen to me, worse than all the consequences you describe above, is to for one minute have to possess the brain of a MN who can never get enough supply, never stops plotting and is never at peace. That's what I call suffering. As for my comment about being a willing doormat, it was nothing I did consciously. it was not until I started looking at all this that I saw the whole picture and my role in it. When my illusions about these vampires were finally shattered, I ceased to be a doormat. I hope this has cleared up a few things for you.
ReplyDelete"they take such good care of getting their primary needs met they'd have to be total fuckups to completely destroy their lives in all those areas, but that does not mean they do not experience significant psychological wounding. Losing a big source of supply is a huge loss of control. Do not underestimate it."
Delete"The last thing I would EVER want to happen to me, worse than all the consequences you describe above, is to for one minute have to possess the brain of a MN who can never get enough supply, never stops plotting and is never at peace. That's what I call suffering."
So you are Anonymous #1. How fucking shady. Yep, I knew it. You have an agenda: blame the victim and sympathize with the poor "wounded" "suffering" MN. Maybe you are one of their minions or a wannabe therapist - same thing, especially when you make excuses for their behavior.
Yup, I had you pegged. Your catch phrases and slogans are a "tell." In your firt comment you were incredibly vague, said nothing, but at the same time contradicted yourself and stated the obvious. In other words, your comment was all over the map and confusing. We, the reader had to insert meaning into it. You are manipulative and you used a diversion technique to disguise your real agenda: sympathizing with the Narcissist and blaming the victim. No wonder you repeat like a parrot what your therapist says: you don't get it.
P.S. I said loss of control doesn't count. Interestingly, that's the only thing you could come up with. When you stop viewing an MN as a normal person then maybe you'll stop seeing things like being greedy and never getting enough supply, and being sadistic and never stop plotting as "suffering."
DeleteAnon #1 and Anon #2 are the same person. I don't think I made that clear. Proving once again, this person with multiple "Anonymous" personas lacks credibility.
DeleteAnd they never answer my question: Why are you here? Shilling for clients, Life Coach?
I'm totally with Lisette on this. Anonymous one and two: just step back a minute and think about the imbalances of power which HOM is a testimony to: Malignant Narc parents, motivated by evil and captive scapegoat innocent children who are dependant on the Narcs for day-to-day survival, year in year out, until we made our physical escape. My escape was a desperate bid for survival. I had no money, I had no-one I could trust, I had a lot of unhealed trauma, I had only emotional and psychological resources gleaned from books and films, and the MNs still schemed to undermine me in every way they could, probably because they were afraid I would expose them and be believed. And my truth was the ultimate threat to their "respectability" scam. So I was viciously discredited to anyone who would listen, right up to their deaths decades later. They targeted anyone who knew me that they could get access to. The character assassinations follow our escape from the physical captivity. And that is quite a typical experience for child hostages of Malignant Narcs. It's all about POWER with them, not power that we give to them (you are soooo wrong) but power that they steal. If you don't get the nature of this power relationship and they ways they feed on it, use and misuse it to abuse others, then you just don't get what Malignant Narcissists are. We aren't talking about someone being a bit dependent on others here and us buying into that. (If only!) We are talking about people - our kin - who were corrupt, evil, powercrazed, exploitative and considered themselves entirely entitled to reduce others to things, objects to be used for their spite and pleasue (spite is their pleasure). So it is repugnant to suggest that we enabled them, or enable them now. We didn't. We don't. We survived them, and that took a hell of a lot of life energy. These MNs are the worst kind of psychopaths. Give them a free pass if you want, in your own life, but it is naive to expect that view to find support here from people who have had to grow up with these fascist crazy cockroaches who made our lives a daily nightmare of survival against bitter odds.
ReplyDeleteBravo Lisette and Anna! Thank you for explaining why anons' thinking is anathema to my healing. This blog is helping me so much, and the last few posts on this page are especially pertinent to my situation right now. Your eloquent explanations give me much solace and
ReplyDeleteI'm finally having moments of peace of mind knowing that I'm not to blame for the situation I find myself in. And that is the concept that's at the heart of their accusations; that I'm to blame. - Jean Jeanie
At the end of my post above I meant to write that they've always said that I'm the one who's at fault for their bad behavior...and how I've ever agreed to take that on is beyond me now that I see the truth of the matter. I know for sure now that I've been brainwashed. - Jean Jeanie
ReplyDeleteYes, brainwashed. But according to Anonymous#1/#2 you are a willing doormat who has placed yourself in that role, and all you need to do is pull yourself out of your chosen role. I wonder if Anonymous#1/#2 views prisoners of war, and victims of other hostage situations as "willing doormats" ??
Deletelol lol, oh my. Yeah. No. I would never willingly put myself into this situation. HEll NO! - jeanie
ReplyDeleteAlso, pulling myself out of this role has been the hardest thing I've ever had to do and I'm having to do it in several social arenas, plus two families all at once; that is my unchosen family and the one I married into. My problem has always been that I'm too "soft-hearted" according to one of my Nfriends. I think she's right, but unlearning how to love and care for my Ns is not such an easy task. - jeanie
ReplyDeleteJeanie, any instance of any Narc saying to any of us anything that starts with "You're too.." is a manipulation. Even when Narcs do tell the truth, it is only done in the service of another of their lies.
DeleteNarcs know and use any residual confusion/neediness from our childhood, as long as it remains accessible to them, like a permanent invisible IV line they've stuck in our veins, to dripfeed in more poison, more defamatory discounts and distortions. Narcs want us to be like a software program they write, to run whenever they like, and shut us down when it doesn't suit them.
A Narc telling you how softhearted you are (even if compassion is one of your character strengths) is a warning alarm that they intend to exploit something from the relationship, it's a way of grooming you for future use..
Narcs know (and can sense, like sharks sense blood) that we didn't get the basic warm fuzzies and positive strokes that children need, and see nothing wrong with exploiting that vulnerability in us. They know we were trained to believe that we had to earn our right to exist by serving their needs, whims and desires. ("Unlearning" starts essentially by refusing to be a source of further supply: sorry Narcs, no more time, attention, credibility, information, services, compassion, regard, sex, money - whatever the Narc is tripping out on).
Some devious Narcs use apparent compliments ("you're so calm, you never get upset") to try and stop their targets connecting with the anger that Narc exploitation naturally inspires in their victims.
For me, perceiving, feeling and connecting with the RAGE arising from their treatment of me deleted the "caring well for Narcs" software they had programmed before!!! However, making that connection required a critical mass of external validation, before I could take over and perceive the reality of my own experience without external verification.
Hi Anna, yeah, I knew that when people say, “You always...” or “You never...” that they're manipulating me, so I should have realized that hearing, “You're too (this or that...)” is manipulation/abuse as well. This is my problem, I keep giving the Ns the benefit of the doubt and believing they actually care. I really believed that if only I could harden my heart, I'd stop suffering. Oh, if only.
Delete“Narcs want us to be like a software program they write, to run whenever they like, and shut us down when it doesn't suit them.” - Anna
That's a clever way to put it and it describes some of the Ns in my life to a tee.
I've been going through the RAGE-stage for some years now, especially with certain MNs and I hate it, but I guess it's a necessary part of breaking our programming and waking up. - jeanie
Jeanie: "I've been going through the RAGE-stage for some years now, especially with certain MNs and I hate it, but I guess it's a necessary part of breaking our programming and waking up."
DeleteSame here, or almost. As I said in my earlier comments, I've been NC with my "family" for three to five years. Until a year or two ago, my main effort was maintaninig the conviction that I did the right thing by going NC. Now I don't question that any more. Lately, as I read and reflect about narcissism I remember past events, often seeing them in a new light. In my remembrances I am "discovering" new instances of abuse I wasn't even aware of before. And not only "family" - also former teachers, therapists, etc. And I get mad. Sometimes I am so enraged that I feel I could assault the person in question if I met them face to face.
I do not "hate" these feelings, though. I too feel it is a necessary phase. In fact, I'm not sure exactly where it should stop. Forgiveness to the Ns is out of the question. Should the anger finally dissipate into feeling nothing? Or, as Anna Valerious wrote on her blog, should a residue of it always remain to enable us to deal with Ns in the future, and empathize with the victims? I am somehow inclined to believe the latter, in the form of a permanent awareness that some people are evil and dangerous, and to be avoided.
I was terrified of my Rage, so I suppressed it and mis-labelled it for decades (as fear). Perhaps it had to reach a critical mass too, then it swept through and out of me as a violent enlivening energy, which I realised later must have taken enormous energy to suppress all those years. It was astonishing to feel so intensely, I had never felt so fully alive and energised.
DeleteMy guess is that Rage frightens us because it is a powerful feeling - and we were forbidden and dispossessed of power from the beginning - so first encounters with rage in adulthood are very alien experiences for us, frightening, as if we had stepped out of our identity. That was true for me, anyway. Then I received enough validation to enter through the Rage door, rather than slamming it shut on myself.
I see Rage (it needs the capital letter) now as the fire that burns the rubbish away to ash, that purifies. The phoenix bird rises from the fire after it turns to ash - I relate to that metaphor. When it was silenced, shut down, ignored and stored away in my body rather than my consciousness, suppressing Rage took enormous energy from me, diverting my physical energy to the useless task of keeping Rage inert, in a state of "deep freeze". Feeling my rage never harmed nor killed anyone else; suppressing it and not feeling it harmed and perhaps nearly killed me. Rage is liberating, it helps crack apart other inculcated imprisoning illusions too ("I must be nice all the time, and never rock the boat"). But first, we have to self-validate our right to feel Rage. We are liberated by realising our Rage, having being subjected to systematic OUTRAGEOUS, dehumanising treatment, having being valued as of less worth than their furniture by our NM parents, deprived of nurture and wrapped in their webs of lies of malice. Rage is perhaps the first door that I had to pass through to reposses my self and move further on, to form true connections between self and soul. It was the start of a much longer journey, but what a start!
Hi Accountant,
DeleteI've been wondering whether I'm going to have to experience this anger forever too and I can also relate to your constant revelations about moments of N-abuse as you remember past events with certain people, which triggers more anger.
I've been dealing with awakening for quite a few years now as well, and I've never experienced such rage and anger before in my life, but my goal is to have peace of mind, so I'm hoping I don't continue to feel angry unless there's a specific instance where I need to stand up for myself or others, and even then, I'd rather just stay cool while I defend myself or them; but I definitely think we have to allow ourselves to go through this anger stage, and that it can last for many years. I tell myself I don't need the anger anymore because you can't unring bells once they've been rung, and I'm forevermore going to be hyper-aware of N behavior and all it entails.
I guess time will tell whether I have to keep experiencing such intense anger or not, but I'm hopeful it won't be so constant, because lately I'm finally feeling much more peaceful about this issue more often, which is how I generally was by nature before I became aware of N-abuse, and it's been nice, because, with my new found knowledge about Ns, I'm more confident in dealing with them and choosing to go NC/LC with them and their flying monkeys. That's the state of mind I'm striving for; calmly self-assured and empowered. - Jeanie
“I get knocked down, but I get up again, aint nothin' gonna keep me down...”
Anna,
DeleteWow, you hit the nail on the head with every sentence you wrote. I found myself nodding through your entire post and what you say about how we aren't allowed to express our outrage at being mistreated is so true. That must be part of the conditioning that Lisette talks about for ACONs. From childhood on, my best friends marveled at how easy-going I was, and they would say, “You never get mad,” and that was true. In fact, my Nmom tells me I almost never cried as a baby and now I think that's probably because I sensed that I shouldn't as she couldn't handle it.
I have determined one thing from this, and that is that if I am angry in the future, I'm going to let it show from now on. I'm not going to conjure it up, but I am going to act authentically however I'm feeling moment to moment and that's a revolutionary act for me, and you're so right that it's liberating.
So Anna, if you don't mind me asking, did you get past your anger?
Jeanie
Anna, I love the phrase "having being valued as of less worth than their furniture by our NM parents"! :-) In the science-fiction movie Soylent Green, there are apartment-based prostitutes that pass from tenant to tenant of a particular apartment, and are actually referred to as "furniture".
DeleteIndeed, our parents did not concieve us with the goal of us becoming human beings; instead, we were to be a tool to them. Realizing that is kind of like realizing that you were an unwanted child - and we were, we were not wanted as people. I'd say the basis of our future life is that: claiming our very humanity.
To both you and Jeanie, thanks for your thoughts on rage. It seems I am only at the beginning of the rage stage, so I've yet to see where this takes me.
A little while ago I found myself defining Rage as "Reality and Grief Energised"
DeleteJeanie I don't mind you asking did I get past my anger? I'll endeavour to answer this without thinking about it, because Rage is not a thought nor a way of thinking. I don't see Rage as a stage to be gotten past; Rage is an experience of Energy expressed as feeling. Rage is part of wholeness. We are complex: we have a body of thought, (our intellect) a body of limbs (our physical body) and a body of feelings (our emotional life and energy). Rage is part of the body of feelings, part of that whole; I have no more desire to lose my capacity for Rage than my arms. Rage is activated in us, particularly, when our boundaries are violated, deeply and/or repeatedly violated. And this is protective of the Self, the real Self, not the self that the Narcs did their best to condition us to be: "Don't feel/don't think/don't exist/don't be, just be used as I want to use you and at all other times, shut up, shut down and stop existing until my next attack or demand".
So this is what I'm saying: if you shut it out of your awareness and pretend it's not there, or forget you have any capacity for it, or tell yourself the mindfuck that "normal people don't have any rage", - then you probably have some serious damage in the boundary/self protection department. That's not a criticism: most people who have been conditioned by MNs for decades do have serious damage in the self-protection department, because the Narcs out it there, systematically, using the child's natural vulnerability and dependency.
TA, in many ways, Narcs treat their own children like prostitutes. My MN parents were wealthy, and of course money was one of their most convenient ways to enforce control on others. A prostitute is trapped in a lifestyle of being used as an object as if he/she did not have a soul. Objectified, dehumanised, treated as a thing, paid off, silenced. MNs are the pornographers of 'family life'.
Jeanie, for many years, I confused my Rage as a frozen sadness, a hopeless state of despair - which I wrongly thought was "just me". Women who feel rage are labelled "bitches". There's a whole social programming going on as well as the dreadful MN programming we got, so we were doubly trapped.
I was astonished when I found HOM because it was clear to me in the first 5 minutes that Lisette was not frightened of her rage, did not disown it, apologise for it, explain it away or
regard it as aberrant. (It isn't aberrant). I noticed how trolls tried to shame and silence Lisette's rage and her response to them: Fuck Off. Totally appropriate. No other website that addresses MN damage is so intolerant of their outrageous behaviour. That's why I chose to be here. I so admire Lisette's honesty and courage. Look at that word, COU-RAGE! Isn't it beautiful?? I hope this post makes sense, I am having so many thoughts at once about this topic. Don't fear your rage, use it to protect your Self.
Anna,
DeleteThank you so much for answering my question to you in depth, like you did. I've read it a few times and am pondering it deeply. You have a great deal of wisdom to share, and I'm grateful you're so willing to.
I don't want to fear my rage now that I've found it either, and I've come to the conclusion that if others call me 'a bitch', that's probably a good thing. Heh... I never thought I'd feel that way, ever. The ONE thing my friends and I never wanted to be called is 'a bitch', but if it happens to me now, it'll probably be because I'm making progress.
And yes, I'm in total agreement with Lisette telling the trolls to F-off. That's part of what makes HOM such a good place to be. - Jeanie
Hi Anna,
DeleteThanks for answering my question. I typed a longer reply to you, but it doesn't seem to be showing up. - Jeanie
Oh how the Trolls give themselves away....especially when they write one "Anon" asinine comment and then pretend to be *another* "Anon" and send in another "Comment" in support of their FIRST one. Like a Blogger can't figure this out just from a quick glance at their stats that both the "Anons" are one and the same Troll.
ReplyDeleteAnother good reason to stay the hell away from shrinks who ply their trade around such crap as "significant psychological wounding" of the Perpetrator who has truly inflicted far more significant IRL "wounding" on their Targets much to the Perp's delight.
Where's your graphic of the '50's woman with her spray can, Lisette? That's about the most appropriate "Response" I can come up with for this Troll.
TW
Thanks for the wonderful blog and everyone for sharing their personal stories. I would like to share mine as well if that's alright.
ReplyDeleteI find myself in a very 'delicate' situation where I recently found out that one of my so-called friends is a narcissist. I can't believe it took me over 15 years to pinpoint what his problem is! Going NC on him is not really an option since he's my husbands friend and is also friends with all our other friends.
He lies and exagerates ALL THE TIME, cheats, steals and manipulates people, it's disgusting! As if finding out that you've been taken advantage of and manipulated for years wasn't bad enough, the couple people I've shared this with don't seem to believe me! I can't even SAY anything about him that is even remotely negative, they all jump to his defense! They make excuses for him and defend his horrible behavior. He is even manipulating a friend of ours and it's affecting a large group of people, and there is nothing that I can do about it, I feel so powerless and alone.
Why are people so blind? (I have known for a few years that there was something seriously wrong with him, just didn't know it was narcissism) The only comfort I have is that since I've started 'ignoring' him and not reacting to ANY of his crap, it seems to be upsetting him a lot. I am very angry at him for what he did and still tries to do to me, and I'm angry with myself for letting him! I have decided that I will no longer be a victim! But it's hard when you're the only person who sees someone for what they really are. I hope people start waking up soon. Thanks for reading my rant.
Yk, this is one of those "Pick and Choose Your Battles" carefully IMO. If this guy is manipulating an entire group there isn't anything you can say or do that's going to influence the others. Since he is aware you're on to him he's gonna hone in on you like a laser guided missile so be prepared: He's likely to start a Smear Campaign behind your back as a way to pre-empt anything you attempt to tell others, undercut your creditability, he'll likely start making nasty comments in a "joke-y" manner to you and then accuse YOU of not having a sense of humor etc. This is where you're really gonna have to immediately call him on his crap-and call it that, exactly or "BS" would do. His digs will likely get progressively worse if you don't cut him off ASAP. Don't ever allow a situation to evolve where you're alone with him, OK? Make sure there are always other witnesses.
Delete"..it's hard when you're the only person who sees someone for what they really are." Not to mention infuriating, frustrating etc. But you *do* see, and ultimately that's what matters, OK? Good Luck-You can do this, really. Self-protection is the right of every human being.
TW
Tundra Woman, thank you so much for your reply.
ReplyDeleteI know there's not much I can do, that's why it's so frustrating, and to make matters worse, I'm part of that group so it affects me as well. I'm also aware that he might start a smear campaign so I'm trying to prepare for the worst. Although he will have to be careful because I am very close to a lot of people in our group and I'm the wife of one of his best friends. I'm not sure if it's just my imagination but it seems like he's afraid of me.
I stopped sharing my opinions on his horrible behaviour with others for now. Oh and I do try to avoid being alone with him at all costs. You're right, we DO have a right to protect ourselves. I wish I could stop being so angry though, at him as well as myself because it seems like that's what I need to start healing properly. But how can you forgive and move on when the abuse is ongoing and won't stop? :(
I am considering taking a break from a mutual activity next year, it might do me a world of good! For now, I saw him a few days ago and the next time shouldn't be until the end of the summer, so at least I have a few peaceful months ahead...I HOPE!
Thanks again for your kind words! :)
"I wish I could stop being so angry though, at him as well as myself because it seems like that's what I need to start healing properly. But how can you forgive and move on when the abuse is ongoing and won't stop?" :(
ReplyDeletebrokenxwisdom, you nailed it! You can't forgive a narc because the abuse never stops - EVER! Narcissistic abuse is a crime in progress, and you can't forgive a crime in progress. Simple fact: narcissists NEVER change, they are not capable of introspection, they do not reflect on their behavior or experiences and they honestly don't believe there is anything wrong with them. The narc will always be a narc/abuser. They will NEVER apologize. Don't worry about being angry. Anger is a motivating force and it will help you make the changes you need and anger will also protect you - embrace it. Don't waste your forgiveness on a narc. Focus your forgiveness on yourself and maybe that will help you be less angry (at yourself) and make it easier to move on. The narc does not deserve any of your humanity - save it ALL for you.
I'm just gonna echo Lisette here, OK? Anger is so important and so primal-it tells us we've been transgressed, it's a reflection of our conscience, morals, values, ethics: All the "stuff" ACONS have had violated repeatedly from their earliest years.
ReplyDelete"I'm not sure if it's just my imagination but it seems like he's afraid of me." IMO respectfully, it's not your imagination at all! He knows/senses you're on to him and what's behind his intentional infliction of pain. Gawd forbid you see behind the MN Mask-you must be "eliminated" somehow so he's circling you warily looking for your vulnerable areas. (That's why I mentioned all that stuff in my previous reply.) It's exhausting to be "On Guard" constantly when you're around these people which should be a tip-off you're in the presence of malevolence/ MN Predator.
I really hope you can opt-out of this mutual activity gracefully or otherwise. It's not healthy for anyone to be around MNs who view you as nothing more than tasty prey. You're likely the only one who "sees" what's going on as he's likely tested everyone in your group; every interaction with an MN is a skilled interrogation which flies below most people's radar. I'm betting he's found the others easy to manipulate.
ACONS can use their "N-Spotting" skills phenomenally well. Generally, the only quality we're lacking is confidence in our own perceptions but as you exercise your skills IRL and experience confirmation, your self-confidence will increase exponentially. FWIW, that was my experience.
Even if no one else aside from you ever "gets" it, the most important out-come is confirmation for yourself that your feelings and perceptions, your Personal Compass is set to True North. There's a boat-load of "healing" right there for ya! ;)
TW
OOPS! Forgot one last and most important observation: ACONs either completely lack Boundaries or they're so minimal, an MN can easily bull-doze right over your lil' "white picket fence" of Boundaries. As an ACON I was very concerned with "Being Fair/Nice," "Doing the Right Thing," "Go Along to Get Along" (the path of least resistance) and giving multiple opportunities to MNs. I was so well trained to believe if I didn't comply with the MN's BS/abuse somehow I was wrong/bad/mean/"too sensitive" etc. (snort!) How convenient for every N who came down the pike to exploit me in my adult life.
ReplyDeletePlease throw out/re-evaluate all that "Nice" stuff: It isn't "nice" but rather another tool for the MN to utilize, ensuring I would continue being some other MN's "meal." (There goes your self-respect and self-confidence once again.) While these strategies may provide some modicum of protection when you're a child in an MN family, as an adult you absolutely, positively have to have very, very firm Boundaries to protect yourself from these MNs or even just your garden-variety social morons.
Boundaries are self-protection in action, not just some abstract concept. MNs will back off when they see you're willing to get down and mud wrestle them if necessary. Please listen to your feelings: If you're uneasy, feel anxious, uncomfortable etc. there's good reason-even if you can't clearly articulate why you're feeling what you're feeling. I can about guarantee you if your Boundaries are in order and well-fortified, the MN will look elsewhere for easier prey.
(My apologies for being a thread hog.)
TW
TW, thank you and amen! I don't care where you are on the road to recovery from N abuse, as ACoNs we need to be reminded of this stuff on a daily basis. I still struggle with self-doubt and trusting my feelings and having confidence in my perceptions. I might just print-out your posts and stick them on my bathroom mirror.
ReplyDelete"MNs will back off when they see you're willing to get down and mud wrestle them if necessary."
WORD. MNs are the original boundary busters and they need to stay on top so they will push and push until you are on the ground. So you either push back hard so you don't fall to the ground, or you pull them down with you and wrestle in the mud. What these MNs count on is that most people aren't willing to stoop to their level. These MNs rely on the fact that normal people are generous, civil, good mannered, kind, want to see the best in others, and always give others the benefit of the doubt. MNs push good, decent people to the brink. And it's always the normal person who walks away from the fight, never the narcissist. I say, stoop to their level. Stand your ground, claim your space and get as dirty as they are if you have to. Scare the MNs away.
Thank you so much for your responses ladies!
ReplyDeleteIt's true anger can be a driving force and can actually help you get through hardships sometimes, but it can be a little draining to be upset all the time also. Maybe the reason it's so difficult for me is that I'm a buddhist and in buddhism they teach us that we should have love and compassion for EVERYONE, which is not always easy! It's hard for me to accept the fact that there are people who have very little to no good in them, people who are beyond saving/changing.
I've always believed there was some good in everyone, now I'm not so sure and even though I know it's not his 'fault' because he was either raised or turned into what he is now, I still only feel contempt for him!
But I understand where you're coming from Lisette, they ARE like tornados of ill intent who wreak havoc and discord all around them, and have no desire to do anything good for anyone. They are oblivious to others needs/feelings and to their own conditions. I believe you're right, they are and will always be this way unfortunately, which forces the rest of us to try and protect ourselves against their abuse.
Tundra Woman, it might not be 'right' but I'm glad he's afraid of me, makes me feel a bit more in control. When the truth of the matter is, I'm the one who's afraid of being alone with him. I also know I don't NEED validation from anyone, the fact that I know should be enough. My husband is starting to see what I am talking about though, finally! Think the real 'wake-up' call for him was when the narc, who hadn't done his job properly, turned around and blamed hubby for his mistake! I honestly hope that now that I realize what HE is, my 'n-spotting' skills will be more developed, and I won't be taken in so easily.
But I have to say, I hope to be able to let go of all my negative feelings eventually, and accept that things are the way they are and all I can do about it is protect myself. I hate that others are being used/abused but the sad truth is, you can't fight other peoples battles for them. Not always easy since I was bullied a great deal when I was a kid so I have a very low tolerance for bullying, against the people I love and myself. Often wondered what made/makes me such an easy target. :(
Just read your other post about always wanting to be 'fair and nice' and going along to get along, describes me to a T! I'm a people pleaser and unfortunately some take advantage and walk all over me. Guess that's what always made me an easy target. I have however started standing up for myself more in the last few years and am quite proud of that. But dealing with a MN is harder than dealing with people who might take advantage of your kindness once in a while. Also love the example of getting down and mud wrestling with them and the thought of 'scaring' them away! Part of me wants to seek revenge for what's been done to me, but in a way, scaring him and not reacting to his crap IS a form of revenge isn't it?
Anyway, thanks again for the comments and encouraging words ladies, much appreciated! It feels nice to talk to people who understand what you're going through. :)
"I hate that others are being used/abused but the sad truth is, you can't fight other peoples battles for them"
ReplyDeleteI am realizing this more as I have spoken out against these narcs and what they do to others. Trying to get others to see were the real problem lies has been futile.
Wow! i must have gotten off easy. my mutha is merely a smug coldish bayoch - with a sense of entitlement for which her golden hyenas provide. they can have at it, want nothing to do with them and their excruciatingly boring tv twaddle.
ReplyDeleteSo if you got off easy, how is it that you ended up on a blog about malignant narcissist mothers? Answer the million dollar question: what are you doing here... besides acting smug?
DeleteWowww... Your assessment is dead on! I was born into a NEST of narcissists & sociopaths. I flew the nest as soon as I was legal, and ~ voila ~ my eating disorders vanished...overnight! Eventually -- and, now, regrettably -- I let my narcissistic relatives & frenemies back into my life. This was BEFORE I knew about narcissism and the sociopathic personality it produces (and that it is INCURABLE). Now I that understand their True, Lying Nature -- and how I had been a magnet for others just like my most malignant family members!?! -- I have barricaded my Life, to bar all those who have aimed their knives at my back, hoping to skewer another piece o' ME to feed on. Yeah, I feel a little sad; but I don't miss the people they actually WERE...just the people they SHOULD/might have been!
ReplyDeleteBest blog ever! I was raised to be supply and I am fighting like hell to find and be my spirit's true authentic self. MN exposure almost killed me this year. Bright side, now I know that I am not alone. Best feeling in the world is knowing that there is someone out there who believes me. Thank you
ReplyDeleteThis is all so spot on,the little things I thought were quirks,were all part of her sick obsession.
ReplyDeleteI always wondered why,her sense of humor was only sparked by someone falling or a accident.
If not pain then embarrassing me was a riot.
I had gained weight being married to her,at a wedding she put up a huge picture of me.
In that picture I was 25 just met her and was good looking.
She went around pointing out what I used to look like,and how I let my self go.
Lol bitch,after I left her I lost all the weight,train in gym and post my pics on FB for her to spy.
I look better now than when I was 25.
So I guess their hate backfires now and again.