Wednesday, 20 July 2011

Malignant Narcissists Get Worse With Age

Livia Soprano - Malignant Narcissist Mother
from the television series "The Sopranos"
Everything that characterizes NPD makes the narcissist impervious to change. So if you’re holding out hope that a narcissist will one day see the error of his or her ways and make adjustments – Fogetta bout it!

And from what I’ve observed, they don’t mellow with age. The malignant narcissist does not become a kinder, gentler, wiser version of its sinister self. Au contraire.  The MN is always pushing the boundaries of bad behaviour and they only become more cruel, vicious and treacherous with time and opportunity. A lifetime of getting away with evil deeds makes them nastier and crazier.  I would say that malignant narcissism is a progressive disorder in that the narcissist becomes more disturbed with each passing year.
Think Tony Soprano’s ruthless malignant narcissist mother Livia, who while lying in a hospital bed after suffering a stroke, continues to plot to have her son murdered. Tony learns of his mother’s scheme and goes to the hospital planning to suffocate her with a pillow. But when he sees how helpless she is, he decides to mock her instead and says, “I’m gonna have a nice, long, happy life, which is more than I can say for you.”  Of course, in true malignant narcissist mother fashion, Livia is able to squeeze out the old evil side eye smirk. The “look” sends Tony into a rage and he has to be restrained by hospital staff.
I will never go anywhere near my malignant narcissist mother ever again. I am convinced that if I was to go to see her on her death bed, she would summon up her last bit of strength just to motion me over to her side, so she could whisper into my ears her last hateful words. And before I could reply by saying, “I hope you’re packing sunblock, it’s hot where you’re going.” The bitch would die with that smug, evil smirk plastered across her face. I simply won’t give her the satisfaction. The last thing the old witch communicated to me – after 17 years without access to me - was an email that read, “Some people are NOT meant to live.” Malignant narcissists are hell-bent on destroying the objects of their irrational malice right up till the bitter end.

Let’s take a look at why malignant narcissists not only don't change but become worse. Keep in mind, they have mastered a lifetime of this twisted way of being in the world, and are always pushing their warped behavior to the limits.
All Malignant Narcissists are a case of arrested development. They live in the mindset of a child. Like a child, they know the difference between right and wrong but choose to do wrong when they can get away with it. However, unlike a child, the narcissist cannot be influenced by authority figures. The narcissist believes they are the ultimate authority on everything.  They are determined to remain children who always get their way. And like all spoiled brats who control everyone by temper tantrums and bad behaviour they only get worse with the more they get away with.
Narcissists feel entitled. Like bratty children, they expect favourable treatment and excessive amounts of attention and adoration despite their unsavoury behaviour. They feel special and exempt from living as others do. They have no desire to grow-up. They feel entitled to remain a spoiled, foul natured, controlling child.  
Narcissists are delusional. They refuse to confront reality. Like a child, they use illusions and distortions to maintain their fantasy about themselves and the world around them. And everyone is expected to play along. If you refuse to play your role in the narcissist's fantasy production then the narcissist child screams, cries, and stomps her feet declaring that something is wrong with you.
Narcissists are control freaks. They think they are in charge of the entire world, including how you behave and what you think, feel and believe. The narcissist is in charge and that means they are always right, and the whole world is wrong. It’s your job to adapt to the narcissist's bad behaviour. Failure to comply with the narcissists' world view is considered an attack of their superiority, and you are considered difficult and you must make the necessary adjustments to appease them. 
Narcissists are grandiose. They really believe they are perfect and there is nothing wrong with them. A prime example is my malignant narcissist sister stalking me on narcissist blogs, and reading about all the people who have been harmed by narcissists. Her response was, “Why should I have to act a certain way?! Why can’t YOU just be complaisant?!” The narcissist believes it’s your job to always please them. And if you don’t do your job and acquiesce to all their demands then the narcissist feels deflated and they must reinflate by diminishing, degrading and debasing you.

Narcissists lack empathy. A lack of empathy means that they don’t know what it feels like to be human. They are oblivious to the feelings of others because they have none.  They are incapable of seeing how they hurt people. They lack the underlying compassion for others that keeps actions or behaviours more or less in check. So when they find themselves abandoned because they’ve hurt everyone around them, the narcissist simply denies, dismisses, and minimizes the gravity of their actions. Hurt feelings? What does that mean? No big deal. Narcissists are coldblooded. I cannot stress that enough.
The only so-called feelings the narcissist understands are their own. For example; the sting of a bruised ego; the frustration that comes with not being in complete control; anger from not getting their way; envy from wanting what others have; jealousy from not getting all the attention; fear of exposure; hatred of all their inferiors; pity for themselves; smug satisfaction.
Narcissists lack a normal conscience. Narcissists do not suffer the burden of a conscience but they are not blind to social mores or the emotions of others. They know exactly what they are doing and they make a conscious choice to hurt others. That’s why NPD cannot be used as a defence for crimes. Malignant narcissists know the difference between right and wrong but choose to do wrong when they think they can get away with it. They have absolutely no concern for anyone but themselves. As a result, they pose a threat to everyone's well-being.
Narcissists are shameless: Without a conscience the narcissist is unable to process the feelings that make us want to alter our behaviour like shame, guilt, embarrassment, and remorse. They simply excuse, rationalize, blame-shift and project all their problems and bad behaviour onto you. Whatever shame sneaks into the narcissists' wisp of a conscience is simply dumped onto you.  

Narcissists are pathological liars: If they're breathing then they're lying. Narcissists don't just tell lies, they are lies. They are the people of the lie. They hate reality because reality = the truth. The narcissist wants to avoid the truth about the world and everyone and everything in it. By disregarding the truth about you, themselves, their past, life etc., the narcissist is able to maintain their delusions of superiority. Do you think a pathological liars is suddenly going to stop lying just because they are getting old? If anything, the narcissist's slander, projection, smear campaigns, character assassinations and accusations become more vicious and bizarre over time. The load of lies that they have been carrying, juggling and hurling onto others over a lifetime becomes so complicated that they must go to greater extremes with even more outrageous lies to cover up the last batch of crazy they dished-out or onto an innocent victim(s). Fair warning, most malignant narcissists end up visibly demented in old age. I say "visibly" demented because often it isn't until then that others can ignore what we always have seen.         
Narcissists are incapable of introspection. The narcissist maintains their delusions of superiority by constantly dodging reality. They refuse to take a good look at themselves because the feedback would not flatter them, and the narcissist must always appear good, even to themselves. They are incapable of looking inward and learning from experience, and instead opt to live in a state of denial. If you think your silence will send a malignant narcissist into deep thought about the relationship and their part in it, think again. The only thing the narcissist will be doing is stewing in hatred for you and pity for themselves.
Don’t think for a second that a narcissist will cave to your pleas of compassion and understanding. They will NEVER understand you, and they don’t possess an ounce of compassion. A narcissist will NEVER say, “I’m sorry.” Or “I was wrong.” EVER. It doesn’t matter how trivial their mistake or how grave their crimes, they will NEVER cop to it. A narcissist will NEVER admit defeat. They are perversely willful.   
The narcissist may shed crocodile tears and pull-off childish drama in order to manipulate you and divert your attention away from their wrong doing in order to get their way, but they will NEVER apologize. Don’t buy their act.
Narcissists are an alien sub-species and they don’t operate under the norms of human principles. They are incapable of change and you are wasting your precious time if you believe otherwise. The regular narcissist is uncritically self- satisfied and remains set in its ways, and the malignant narcissist becomes more vile and corrupt. Either figure out a way to deal with the regular narcissists as they are, or don’t deal with them at all. Don’t go near malignant narcissists. They are unsafe for human interaction.
Narcissists don’t know what it’s like to be human. Being human means being able to feel love and suffer the agony of loss. It means finding meaning for our lives.  A meaning that connects us with something real beyond ourselves. Narcissists don’t look beyond themselves. They simply inflate their egos to find meaning in life.
But we normal people know that part of the human condition is about transcending the ego. We learn the most difficult lessons in life the hard way. We suffer from our mistakes, we acknowledge them, and knowledge becomes our own and we make changes. We experience the process of turning all of our experiences, good and bad, into something more for our growth as a person. The meaning of life has value and it influences every choice we make. It influences how we treat our fellow passenger. It involves faith of some kind.  We understand that transcending the ego is difficult and scary because it entails going into unknown territory, feeling, doing, and relating in ways contrary to our past habits, our old attitudes and identity, and overcoming the handicap of our narcissistic upbringing
“Be the kind of person on whom nothing is lost.” --- William James
Everything is lost on the malignant narcissist. Life has no meaning to them beyond their own selfish needs. That means nothing beyond the narcissist influences the choices they make.  The narcissist is incapable of turning their experiences – both good and bad – into something more for their growth as a person. Malignant narcissists NEVER evolve as people. They only become more twisted and convinced of their warped way of being.  Delusions, immaturity, lack of empathy, lack of conscience, shamelessness, grandiosity, control freakism and the inability to introspect stunt them and corrupt them. As time passes, they become more deeply entrenched in their pathology. 

Life has no value to the malignant narcissist beyond their wretched selves. That means you have no value to the narcissist other than what you can supply to feed them.  Don’t let them hold you back. Keep on moving forward and leave them stuck behind in the murky depths of hell that they call home.


  1. I wanted to respond to this affirmatively. I'm going to have to use multiple comment spaces because of the character limitations. I apologize in advance for the awkwardness of formatting.
    You are absolutely right. They *do* get worse, they get even more rigid and fucking batshit crazy as they age; BUT this can have delightful consequences.

    There will come a point where the mask doesn't just slip--it drops on the floor and shatters. The brain-to-mouth filter is removed, the overtures of pretending to be "normal" or even care disappear. To EVERYONE. Their "friends" are horrified, non-narcissistic family who never understood the evil the crazies inflicted on their children are slapped into the gut-wrenching alertness a predatory sociopath has walked in their midst for decades undetected. [For the record, trying to calmly diffuse their confusion or questions about whether or not the crazy bitch has a brain tumor or suffered a stroke, etc. will take a while because they, as non-evil people, cannot comprehend the insanity.]

    And then something lovely can happen: you are completely validated. You now have allies. You now have protectors and people who aren't so fucked up by decades of shitty "parenting" that they can and do take a stand against the abuse these assholes dole out. You hear honest words you NEVER heard from the crazies:
    "I'm sorry"
    "I cannot believe she's not in jail"
    "I wish we'd known so we could have helped" (In my case, we were geographically separated by thousands of miles my entire life and rarely saw extended family due to NM's isolation schemes)
    "You are a great mom"
    "You are a smart and strong woman"
    "You are beautiful"
    "I love you"
    "We can't wait to see you!"
    "It's their loss"

    These sentiments will never, of course, erase the true misery of growing up under sadistic control and being subjected to beatings that bruised skin and broke bones even until legal adulthood, mind-games that could make one suicidal and tried to snuff out your defenseless soul, and the knowledge that the fundamental responsibilities of a parent were NEVER important but an annoyance and yet another thing to pretend and gleefully lie to outsiders about OR that this pathology didn't end when you were an adult with no strings to pull, stalked and envied and despised and gossiped about. It just won't--but it will let you look forward with hope and happiness sometimes. The anger and fear of trusting anyone abates, even though it never goes away. You may always be put off by truly kind people because you've never known selflessness as anything other than a covert attack technique.

    1. WOW - you summed up what I came in here looking for tonight - so perfectly - that I feel relieved beyond belief. That this wretched narcissism is so real and that people like you have experienced it to this terrible degree left me reeling. I thought I was losing my mind because of the great lie I've lived with one of the worst narcissists - like you. Thanks for the insight. Wonderful - even though I remain deflated that I was too slow to figure it all out all these years - and waited much too long. My phone is now disconnected to this bitch - and I will remain off the hook and free... Thanks.

    2. OMG Thank-you. You have exceptionally nailed and described this pathology with such authenticity. I however doubt that my single mother and siblings will EVER let their masks fall as they are rich, famous and in the public eye. I've mostly cut ties as I now know what is going on. Sharing our experiences is truly important and will help stamp out this primitive and massively ignorant behavior.

    3. Their masks ALWAYS slip, but it happens behind closed doors where there are no witnesses. It doesn't matter if it is a high-profile narc, or a nobody narc - the mask slips but it rarely, if ever, happens publicly. Old age may makes narcs more reckless, because their despicable behavior and vile nature can always be blamed on old age, senility, dementia, a bad combo of meds etc. They have it all covered. As soon as my dying old dad got me alone, without witnesses, it was as if he was possessed. He was, in a word - demonic. Funnily enough, just a couple of days before, he was playing sweet and innocent to a family friend and telling her how much he would love to see me. He got me alone and the mask crashed to the ground. He put on one helluva show for the family friend. Even in old age, these demented evil fucks know what they are doing.... so, if they are young and famous and in the public eye they are ALWAYS "aware" of the camera and putting on an act. It's not until they think they are in the clear that they let their true evil nature rip. I recommend carrying video/recording devices when you are alone with these nasty creatures.

    4. My life has been hindered, compromised and just right out..FUCKED by narcissists. BUT! that is a big but! I never lost myself. I never let THEM ..OWN my head(house). I am the land lord of my mind.

  2. I can't express the surprise and comfort of realizing people exist in your life who are genuinely happy when good things happen to you and honestly concerned when you're having trouble. After enough time in this normal environment, you start to feel the same way about them--not because you're crazy like the assholes who raised you, but because you didn't know people treated one another this way without pulling the rug out from them at their most vulnerable time. You learn that loving and being loved encompasses respect for opinions and boundaries, gestures of kindness, and the knowledge that unconditional love exists. The crazies who raised you responded to good things happening to others with angry jealousy and bitterness, regardless of their own material success.

    This validation has the most beautiful consequences. You develop friendships with good people. They are reciprocal and healthy. And should you choose to share with them (after a long period of time because of trust issues and fear you won't be believed) the hell you experienced, you don't have defend your feelings. A simple statement of "I know it sounds crazy, but it's true" is taken at face value. Your boundaries will be respected. Deep weird neuroses you have can be easily explained and worked around with a simple response that will never fail to shock you: "That's what people who care about each other do." You may also learn of others' shitty parents and have that unspoken comfort that comes from communing with people who understand how much that crap can fuck you up. You start to realize part of the reason you feel so drawn to certain people is because they have that knowledge and you don't have to explain yourself. (Personally, I think that's why I've always had so many gay friends) And on the occasion when the crazies manage to somehow get back in your head again (and they will), your friends and family that love you WILL listen to you cry like a blathering idiot or rage like an insane person. And they'll never hold it against you or use it to wound you, tho deep down inside that fear will always exist even it's irrational and just the tiniest flash of a thought.

    One of the most refreshing effects is the ability to laugh at them. To laugh at their ignorance, crazy contradictions, and general trainwreck-itude. To laugh (with some self-satisfaction) at their true selves being caught in the web of their making. To know that to laugh will fend off the tears. You don't have to pity them. You don't have to forgive them. You shouldn't forgive them. EVER. But you can enjoy the mess they make for themselves (though you'll worry enjoying it means you're like them.)

    All these things can happen, and SHOULD happen. And they can't as long as the narcissist keeps the mask on--there's always reasonable doubt when they can so slyly fake their way through relationships with family and friends. So as they age, let the mask slip and, if you're a safe enough distance, help it fall! Hope there's an event you know will push them over the edge and watch the fireworks from a safe distance. Comfort those deeply wounded who they have now shown their true selves to.

    Refuse to engage, pretend you don't care even if you do, parent your own children with empathy, and be happy. That makes them fucking crazy and miserable and out of control. They do themselves in faster that way.

  3. Yael, Thank you for this awesome comment! It's brutally honest, validating, and in a bitter sweet way, really uplifting. You have written my fantasy ending to the horrors I've experienced with malignant narcissists. I hope you lived this.

    You've made some really interesting points. Especially about the MN's mask completely dropping and them no longer maintaining the pretence of disguise. You've given me a lot to think about, so I want to let your comment percolate a bit before I respond in full. Thanks again for your sharing what you've experienced!

  4. Yep, I can attest to that. Nparents are worse and have gotten meaner as they've aged. I really believe that people can only hide their true selves for so long and then the real person finally comes out for everyone to see. But not everyone will see it because denial still exists among the n appeasers.

    I also can attest that as n age, they don't care if their evil shows anymore. The put downs and meaness are more "out there." To some degree they use to be more suttle and secretive. Being the scapegoat, they are not so suttle anymore about not wanting me to be a part of the nfoo( I just remind them of who they really are). Though they would deny it so they can blame me for having no contact.

  5. This "mellowing with age" observation has always left me perplexed-it seems to me to be some sort of Urban Myth. Let's think about this: Did the "researchers" who posit this observation simply interview the notorious liars MN's have demonstrated historically? Did they speak to family members/friends in an effort to support their null hypothesis? Relying on self-reporting is just plain nuts, IMO. I truly have never been able to buy this hypothesis and I HAVE BEEN UNABLE TO FIND any research which supports this "theory."
    So, let's get back to anecdotal observations and call them as they are-NOT "research," just observations at best. Those of us who have experienced up front and personal relationships with these MNs would not only "beg to differ; we've apparently been left out of the "universe" of research subjects.
    No, MN's don't "get better," they simply feel entitled to allow the "mask" to crash and burn. Just my take, FWIW.
    And yes, can't cha tell,thisntel

  6. "MNs don't "get better," they simply feel entitled to allow the "mask" to crash and burn."


    After all, MNs are nasty, spoiled rotten brats trapped in the body of an adult. So they hide behind the mask during their "adult" years when their true nature would be viewed as unacceptable. But when they get old, they feel entitled to even MORE special treatment because they are old. So they change their strategy and let it rip. Being old is a great excuse for behaving openly like a petulant child or raging lunatic. In some ways, it's just a new mask. One that gives them even MORE CONTROL. It's like their final "fuck-you! I won!" to the world. And I'm sure the MN is laughing at us, right up til their dying breath.

  7. Oh, yes. My N dad certainly is getting worse with age.

  8. //The narcissist believes it’s your job to always please them. And if you don’t do your job and acquiesce to all their demands then the narcissist feels deflated and they must reinflate by diminishing, degrading and debasing you.//

    omg, it makes me sick when I think of this. Everything about this is counter-intuitive to a "normie." We simply cannot allow these individuals into our minds and hearts.

    For what it's worth, my NF is mellowing with age. I think the threat of losing everything and everyone is too great a cost. So, while it may not be coming from a place of genuine desire for relationship, the way we know it, it has caused him to pause.

  9. Cheshire, much of the time when I write this stuff I think of my MN sister. She is the sickest N I've ever known. Hands down, her pathology surpasses my parents. She expects everyone to obey her majesty, and those who don't jump to her every command are labelled mentally ill, disordered in some way, difficult, low-functioning etc. etc. She simply projects, projects, projects. She's always been that way. She barks orders at everyone and expects to always get her way. Needless to say, the only people in her life are her MN mom, and a weak and cowardly flying monkey. She is just vile to be around. The only relationship she accepts with others is them as her subservients. "Why can't YOU be complaisant?!" That says it all.

    My N dad (NOT malignant) has remained the same: indifferent and self-absorbed. He's just in an older body. He hasn't gotten better or worse.

    I think it's possible for the N to sustain certain behavior if it yields supply. Whatever behaviour the N adopts probably depends on the supply. Malignant narcissists, on the other hand, will NOT budge and inch and only become more perversely willful. A demon spawn who has ALWAYS gotten their way isn't about to relinquish control EVER.

  10. Lisette, I think you are right that most N's get worse with age. You have seen your MN Sister "up close and personal." Those I have decided are "N" are probably little monsters behind closed doors with those closest to them. It's easier for me to be downright angry and disgusted with the "overt" N's. My denial with the "covert" type lasted 44 years so I'm still fighting the urge to "slip out of reality" on a regular basis. The covert N leaves its victims flapping in the wind, flailing it's arms in the air while it smugly says "who me?" to those on the "outside." We never win. We look like the asshole and they end up smelling like a rose.

    My NF is a rager and he would embarrass us. It was easy to point our finger at him. My NM was a magician...playing the martyr card to the hilt. Meanwhile, she was just as bad as NF but she got away with it. Recently, I exposed her and we haven't spoke since then. Of course, I did receive an unaddressed and unsigned bday card blaming me. At the very least, it takes two to tango but they will NEVER EVER see it that way.

  11. hi, i am in the process of writing a blog of my experiences of being with a somatic narcissistic wife, and i hope that it will be of some help to others out there in the same boat
    somatic narcissistic wife

  12. Still percolating too, Lisette.

    I've often found lengthy introspective navel gazing regarding the general f*ckitude of MNs rather debilitating. Seriously, being happy is the best revenge. Letting them think you're ALWAYS happy, even if you're not, is the second best revenge. Her attempts at online/family/acquaintance stalking only yield envy-worthy (or in NM mind, anger-producing) results: smiling photos and happy reports. (It's a lot of effort to keep private stuff *truly* private. There's a lot of red herrings out there for her to find, which she does.) I hate the effort to maintain all the publicly findable, but love that it means I'm not personally hassled and do try to keep it at a minimum.

    I love this freedom. I truly want every victim of NMs to feel that liberation and am honestly saddened to the core when they don't...or can't. I work for a day when the necessity keeping up these defenses won't be necessary; a day when the harassment will stop or I'll be strong enough mentally to truly not care what attacks come. I'm not sure that will ever happen, but I will never subject my own young child to that big bucket of crazy. NEVER. Because I'm confident enough to say I'm a damn good mom. Whatever mistakes I may or may not be making, I'm willing to learn from and improve on. And my child is joyful and thriving and will be supported and loved no matter what his decisions are. In the soul, I don't care whether he's straight or gay, a professor or plumber, etc. I just want him to be happy and possibly help improve the world around him for others. We have to live this example, we have to surround ourselves with people who believe this too.

    And extended family coming around unexpectedly feels like karmic justice. I feel so grateful and blessed it happened, even if it did take 40 torturous years. It's the closest to a fairy tale I can imagine. That's a little sad, really. But I'll take it any day to the past. :)

  13. Yael, I can relate to what you've written. Especially the part about revenge and letting them know you are happy, and even planting seeds of information that would drive them over the edge. The fact that we have to live with such defences and pretences is their fault. They've waged war on us since day one. I wish my malignant narcissist sister - the poisonous spider in the family web - was dead!

    Sadly, I don't think most victims find validation from friends or family. My experience is that these people knew all along that there was something wrong but simply chose to look the other way. The mask slips over the years and they've all caught a glimpse of the N's true nature. But they choose to keep their distance and whisper among themselves. They choose to deny, disregard, see no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil. If they remain in the N's life then they appease. Seriously, does it take the N completely losing their shit for these guilty bystanders to FINALLY acknowledge what they always knew existed?! The only time they will not ignore the Ns heinous nature is when it effects them PERSONALLY, and then, and only then, will they align with the victim. The people in my history are callous, indifferent, phony, fairweather, pretentious, self-centred, take care of your own, look the other way types. If they were ever to offer me an ounce of validation I would tell them to go fuck themselves because it's too damn late. And if the N can maintain a facade of sanity, the guilty bystanders choose to buy the Ns act just because it's easier for THEM. Needless to say, I have no respect and nothing to do with the people in my history.

    1. Agree 100% with what you say. I've gone through the same thing as you did, and I have the same perspective with regard to the bystanders and two-faced family members. They can all go to hell!

    2. They can take mine with them and my NM mother. Hope they choke on their own poison!

    3. The bystanders want to appear so righteous but they are more guilty cuz they know better and are not afflicted with n! Shame on them.........I cannot even imagine doing to others what they have don to me!

    4. I have a wonderful relationship with my niece and 2 nephews, they came on vacation with us and stayed with us most of the summer. Their mother (my husband's sister) hid things very well for a very long time. In front of us she was the cookie baking soccer Mom. When the kids were teenagers she was divorced and that was when we started seeing her bad behavior. It was subtle at first and until recently (the kids are in their late 20's and all married) never told us the things she has done and said or the verbal and some physical abuse they indured.My heart broke. I would have done something if I had known. I love these kids as much as I love my own and wish I saw what she was doing, but people like her are very good at hiding who they really are. We no longer speak to her and I always feel like I am defending them with my in laws, but they deserve to have someone stand up for them, love them unconditionally and always have their backs. I will always feel guilt for not seeing who she really is sooner and I wish I could go back in time and do something to stop it, but I can't. However I will be there for them for the rest of their lives and she will NEVER fool me again!

  14. Lisette, the people in your history don't deserve your time or goodwill. And I think you're right--most victims of MNs cruelty don't ever get that extended family validation, thus isolating from any support system there. I liken it to growing up and eventually being on your own without a safety net. The option to move home if you lost your job and had no income? Nope. Financial assistance of any kind? Nope. A reassuring hug when times are tough? HA! There is literally nothing MNs can offer their liberated (or even minor) kids, emotionally or materially. On the off the chance they do, it all comes with poisoned strings.

    I hope the people you choose to surround yourself with now are *good*, I hope you're making gains toward living the life YOU want for yourself!

  15. Lisette, I can relate to bottom two thirds of your rant. :) Your family "knew" they were crazy? They must be REALLY FUCKING CRAZY! lol

    My NM and NF both maintain the "facade" through the CAMERA. Lot's of people do this but N's ALWAYs do this. When my first niece was born it was LITERALLY the PAPARRAZI coming to every family gathering. All seated on the couch together smiling. Both of my parents posted these "web albums" to show everyone else that we are a great family.

    I got tired of the "facade." I started running from the camera. I mean all year long I am ignored, triangulated and put down for the slightest failures but hey, as long as I showed up for "photos" it didn't matter. I joked and said "I'll just send them a life-size cardboard cut out." I mean NOBODY had conversations. It was weather and food and all those pictures.

    I have also noticed that the "scapegoat" or "truth teller" aka "the identified patient" is often the one who ends up the most sane, AFTER, feeling insane most of their life. Once we "get it" we really get it. Our spirit wants the TRUTH not a bunch of phony baloney. We seek and we do find it.

    Next time I think of them I am going to imagine them all NAKED. lol The Emperor is wearing no clothes. So true!

  16. Chesire, ugh to the "family" photos, super 8 films, videos. I've seen all that false evidence of a normal, happy family exploited to the hilt. Ns love that stuff because it's all based on illusions just like their sordid existence. It's so typical that your N parents took to the web to adverstise the "great" family. Give me a break! Overcompensate much?!

    I've always maintained that I'm the sane one, but when I'm surrounded by Ns I feel like I'm going to lose it because the lunatics are running the asylum. The hypocrisy, lies, delusions and injustice is too much for me to bear so I opt to stay far, far away.

    I've seen my MN sister and mother once in about 26 years. I moved across the country and had no contact for about 5 years and then came home for a christmas visist. I thought mn mother and sister were totally deranged but I wasn't sure if it was the time or distance that had made me see just how destructive and psychotic they really are. Anyway, that christmas holiday 21 years ago was the end of that nonsense. I haven't seen them since. I saw what 5 years did to them, and I can only imagine what 21 years has done to them. (which is why I wrote this blog post) I did however get a taste of their advanced pathology when I communicated with MN sister over the phone a few years ago. Even simple telephone calls - and subsequent cyberstalking - wreaked havoc on my mental and emotional state. I shudder to think what they would have tried to do to me had I been accessible to them over the last 20 years. Going no contact was the best decision I ever made. Making contact (via telephone) after 17 years was the most dangerous decision I ever made. But I didn't know what I know now. You live and you learn and you stay the hell away and make self-preservation priority number one ALWAYS!

    Ps. Cheshire, you should send your parents a cardboard cut out with someone elses face and see if they even notice. They would probably still prop it up in the family photos. Or, even better... send them one of yourself giving "the finger." That way, your true feelings will be conveyed in their so-called documented evidence of family love and togetherness.

  17. lololololololol, about the cardboard cut out!

    My NM took the family photo to the extreme. He created a "website." He has five step children . He created a page for each of us complete with "growing up" pictures. Eventually, he got made because people were not sending him pictures to keep up the site. WoW!

    1. Really? My MN mother had a photographer take a family portrait of all of us (a dozen siblings and my parents)decades ago, and gave everyone a portrait.......except for me. Do you think I'm the scapegoat? Funny, after seven years of No Contact, a brother came to me and invited me back. (That way he can outrun me and let her get me and not him, I guess. Things sure have changed.) A niece told my son I was right to leave cause the family is awful. I've never felt so well in my life. I laugh many times a day. A number of my children live near her and don't visit her-and they are highly successful people-the exact opposite of what she was telling everybody about them before they moved to her city. Lots of loss in my life-she cost me friends, a career, self-esteem and my reputation. I'm happy now! And I am using a creative talent to its max, one that was always suppressed before. Wow!

  18. I'm always still amazed at the similarites we all have with nfoo.

    Cheshire, My N dad was a rager to and embarassed us in public.N mother was like yours.

    Since I've had no contact with them for years now, it would be interesting to see how things are now. I'm sure I would be shocked to see how much more pathological they have become. The last time I saw them it was a huge shocker to see how much more warped and delusional they have become.Not only that, nfoo are dragging the grandkids along with them. These people really suck...!!

  19. Thank you so much for this wonderful, insightful, perceptive, and most of all accurate post. My husband and I have had to do "spring cleaning" on both sides of our families with N relatives and it is eerie how they and enabling family members have reacted the exact same way to our establishing healthier boundaries and refusing to tolerate their abuse anymore... and we were noticing that yes, they do indeed get worse with age. What a shame.

  20. My Only joy (if it's possible , is in the knowledge, that ALL these years with a hateful mother,) my brothers and sisters and I as it turns out were NOT aT ALL ALONE IN THE WORLD, lIVING A LIFE OF COPING WITH A SELF ABSORBED HORROR WHO NEVER WANTED TO SEE JOY AND LAUGHTER IN HER CHILDREN WAS BOT EASY.I am greatful for the company, I don't feel like a ONE FAMILY FREAK SHOW anymore...Other than that, I am so so angry, that she was allowed to torture us as she had....She destroyed one of my brothers lives...he loved her so...The rest of us, well for sure we are survivors.
    I must say, I am taken back at how she fits the description of a MN to the HILT...What a surprise, that I had always known in my HEART, but was not concious of it...I knew my MN mothwer was seldfish though, it just was not ever explained to me, so I just thought she was born MEAN

  21. Anonymous, I too am grateful for the company of fellow Family Freak Show survivors. That's a great way of putting it.

    You're entitled to your anger toward your MN mother. It's a healthy and natural reaction to a hateful monster who tried to destroy you and your loved ones.

    Most people haven't got a clue about malignant narcissisim. I learned about it through amazing online blogs written by Adult Children of Narcissist. I am so grateful that they took the time and energy to share their knowledge, insights and experiences. But most of us survivors - like you wrote - always knew in our hearts that something was very wrong. And it's this intuitive sense that leads us in search of answers and our discovery of narcissism. Finally everything makes sense and we no longer feel like a one family freak show.

    You may be right that your MN mother was born mean. I believe my MN sister - who is only 2 years older than me - was born a malignant narcissist. She was mean and nasty from the get go, and only gets crazier and nastier as the years go by.

  22. I'm just reading and learning more. I've been in cut off with my former in-laws for 4 years (I'm a widow. My husband was an ACoN). Even to this day one of them posts complete nonsense about me. Sigh.
    I won't engage her. If I don't want to be attacked I shouldn't swim with sharks, right?

    Just wanted to tell you how much one of your posts resonated with me -- the one about "murdering" and "self-destruction." My husband was one of the scapegoats, but his younger sister was even more so. She died 3 1/2 years after he did, and she slowly drank herself to death while taking anti-depressants. A lethal mix for sure. She needed a liver transplant. She was younger than 50. Her N father, along with help, slowly killed her until she finally gave in and slowly committed suicide. How very, very sad.
    - Anonymous

  23. Not only do MNs get worse with age, they remain unrepentant for all the wrongdoing and grief they've ever caused, even on their deathbed. My estranged mother's last orders to my estranged father were to not inform me that she was dying of liver/stomach cancer or that she had died, and he carried out her orders to the letter. Just bitter and nasty to the end ... and very alone as a consequence.

  24. Anonymous,
    "Just bitter and nasty to the end..." I'll say.

    She shot her final bullet at you with the intent to continue to torment you... through a lifetime of guilt, shame, regret - whatever. I hope you dodged that bullet. She must have been alone or you would have heard from someone -besides your father - that she was dying. She deserved to be alone. ALL alone.

  25. Lisette, I found out from one of my cousins that she had cancer. I refused to do a "deathbed" visit because I was not going to let my N mother get her last digs in. It was this same cousin that let me know of her dying, and all I felt was relief.

    1. Anon, I have thought of this just recently. Would I even attend my N parents funeral. Both my parents are in their 70's and not in the best of health. It's so strange to come to this conclusion that I really never had a relationship. There was never any love between us... I have nothing to say goodbye to. I feel like it would be a celebration of new life for myself, and a relief that I would no longer have to look over my shoulder. No guilt. No shame. Just freedom...

  26. Anonymous,
    Good! Your N mother aimed, fired and missed her target completely. Relief? Good again!

  27. Lisette, my beloved grandmother (who lived to be nearly 101 years of age, who was nothing whatsoever like her daughter (my N mother), and who was the one who convinced me to permanently walk away from my parents) told me a wonderful mantra: When you go, stay gone.

    No contact means no contact. Not for money, material goods, illness or death. These people simply are what they are, will never change, and will never be the kind of parents/family members/friends you need or deserve.

  28. Anonymous,
    Wow! What a wise, wise woman. It's wonderful that you had such a good influence in your life for as long as you did.

    I think your grandmother's no contact blurb should be carved in stone... or at least mass produced on a coffee mug so people could be reminded of the simple truth every single day.

  29. "A narcissist will NEVER say,'I’m sorry.' Or 'I was wrong.' EVER. It doesn’t matter how trivial their mistake or how grave their crimes, they will NEVER cop to it. A narcissist will NEVER admit defeat. They are perversely willful."

    Actually, I know of atleast one who will resort to trying to supplicate with an "I'm sorry" or "I was wrong, I'm everything you said I am". I'm guessing its a trick she learned to use in order to placate her own domineering MN mother.

    From what I've observed, the more clever malignant narcicysts know how to slip into a "supplicant suck-up" mode and fall back on cowardly passive aggression when they're interacting with those they feel intimidated or outmatched by. IMO, if you're unfortunate enough to have a malignant narcicyst infecting your life and they're showing overt, willful hostility its likely because they consider you a soft target.

    Then again, everyone is different -- including the most wretched among us -- so not all MNs will show exactly the same behavior patterns. Malignant humans can come in many varieties; there are ones who're overt predators, some are insidious parasites, and some are mixtures of both extremes depending on their "niche".

    IMO, its very helpful to view the "personality disordered" not as people afflicted with a disease but as the disease itself. They are quite literally societal pathogens in much the same way that virulent bacteria, viruses, and cancers are biological pathogens. The day mainstream clinical psychology stops treating these creatures as patients and more like maladies in-and-of-themselves, I think society will be much better off.

    1. You're right. My MN father used to beat me and my mother senseless, did all the things noted in this blog, etc. She used to literally get on her knees and grab his ankles begging him to stay after he'd bloody up her face and she always used me as a human shield and discretely encouraged him to brutalize me at the drop of a hat. I always thought we were equal "victims" until he left her and she started to show her true colors. Turns out she might be an even more toxic MN than my father was/is. She brutalized a decent second husband, was the fairy tale horrible step-mother to his innocent little girl whom she blamed for all their problems. When he finally left her, she took to boozing and found herself a young MN gigolo who turned her completely against me (her only child) and our children. All they'd talk about was when my g-parents were going to do her the favor of dying so they could get their hands on the vast inheritance. When he left her because, as he had the gall to tell me directly "I'm sick of f*(&ing this heavily made-up old doll while waiting for your grandparents to croak" she acted like he never existed and even claimed to have asked him to leave, etc. If I even mentioned him, their betrayals, etc., she would become dead silent and eventually start talking about something else.

      I finally woke up but am very disgusted with myself that it took half a century to do so and during that time I have allowed her to ingratiate herself to my own kids. Fortunately, she has the habit of getting drinking & dialing like a lunatic so that keeps them from falling under her spell completely. None of them respect her but being young adults in need of extra cash, they let her manipulate them with the money she stole from others, including me. In fact, she had opened up bank accounts for them when they were young and they had to send her monthly thank you cards for the monthly deposits. One day when she was angry with me she liquidated those accounts. In my book that's stealing also but because they saw me forgive her past horrible treachery and attacks (sometimes even physical) without even the benefit of an apology, they don't quite understand how I suddenly decided to go no contact after a relatively smaller sin, lies and the usual back-stabbing. I think this is because the harm is cumulative.

      Sorry for going on and on. Anyhow, you are right, Kimani. They can be downright subservient toadies and shout out their fake remorse and allegiance when in fear of other MN's, the only people in the world they seem to respect (and I use the word "respect" rather loosely here).

  30. Kimani,
    MN sister ONCE and only once, shed crocodile tears, and turned pathetic in reaction to being busted for her crimes... she said, "I'm sorry, I'm sorry..." through her blubbering and tears, and that was quickly followed by "BUT, I didn't know... BUT, I didn't do it on purpose..." Yeah right, and boo hoo. They take NO responsiblity for their actions and then become so pathetic and denfenceless that they appear to be the victim and the focus is back on poor little them (they are very subtle, and sometimes not so subtle manipulators). Again, that's my only experience with a narcissist's NON-apology, and it seems to be quite common. They're all different, but they're all the same too.

    I agree that the N will show overt, willful hostility because they consider you a soft target - never show vulnerability to a narcissist. What I find the most dangerous is the covert, passive-aggressive N behaviour.

    They do come in many varieties and different mixes, and they seem to do whatever works given the situation and person. It's as if they have fallen off the same factory assembly line, and been given the same big bag of tricks - it's just a matter of what tricks they like to pull from the bag.

    Your suggestion at viewing the "personality disordered" as the disease itself - "societal pathogens" - is interesting, and IMO, right on the money. If we could place the human race under a giant microscope I'm sure we would find that the PD interact much like viruses and they are attacking, infecting and destroying HUMANITY. It's naive for us to believe that mankind as a species is immune from attack from parasites and predators within our own "genetic kingdom". Hell, we're just animals after all.

    So the question is, will PD become a widepsread epidemic and destroy what makes us human? Will "humanity" in the truest sense of the word, become extinct? Or, do we some how contain this dangerous virus? On another, less biological level - who will triumph? Good or Evil? Also, why is that so many of us raised within this sick and toxic environment can fight the infection and not become diseased? Is it because we have a very strong MORAL immune system? So many questions.

    Thanks for sharing your insights... they got my wheels a spinning.

    1. Lisette, this is a great blog and I'm grateful for having come across it this morning. The crocodile tears and fake remorse seems to me like their idea of foreplay before the emotional rape. Sorry if I offend by putting it in those terms but as a rape victim (twice ... by strangers), I can attest that there is room for comparison. While I love the comparison to pathogens, I feel they violate your soul more violently than any cancer or bacteria violate your body. The bullshit tears and words are followed by a "but" and in my experience, it ALWAYS ends up turned around so that they're the victim. I once saw my mother blame our answering machine for a litany of insulted she recorded on it (including to our children) when we committed the offense of not being home to get her phone call. Another time she actually blamed the poor quality of the wine (not the fact that she can't handle so much as one glass of it) for the heinous almost violent bullying she committed against her own elderly parents. Ugh, I could go on and on and on but you all have heard it all before because I'm convinced these worthless bastards all recite from the same script.

    2. Hello Anonymous and welcome,
      I'm very sorry for what you've had to endure. And I think your analogy of fake remorse being a type of foreplay before the emotional rape is spot on. When we pity someone, we are for the moment defenceless. We drop our guard, and then the MN goes in for the kill. All abuse is premeditated, and all abusers are predators. They know exactly how to prime their prey for maximum exploitation. That's why it's so important that we never buy their "act." I've seen MN sister snap-out of the poor me, I'm the victim here, in a split second. Voice changed, tone changed, tears stopped, blubbering came to a halt as soon as she saw that I wasn't buying what she was selling. She quickly flipped masks and tried another angle. Proving once again, these narcs know exactly what they are doing and are always in manipulation mode. They even blame answering machines for recording proof of their abuse!! What a joke. Now normal people might be able to use the booze exuse for acting like a jackass. But they apologize and feel guilt. Not so the MN. They are nasty and vile booze or not. And it's never their fault. Eye-roll.

      I agree that these MNs violate our souls more violently than any disease can violate our body. And when it comes to MN parents, soul murder is personal. They pick and choose what child/children to prey on. And getting help for this invisible soul injury often leads to re-victimization. I'll stop here so I don't go off on a rant about that.

  31. I might be being naively optimistic but I don't think these buggers will be the end of us. Our species has been thru a lot in it's bumpy history, and despite a lot of the ugliness in the world today, I think we've come a long way. There was a time when these monsters were almost universally able to operate in the broad light of day. I think the fact that societies are peaceful enough today that so many people can even doubt the existence of evil shows just how far we've come as a species. But, again, maybe that’s just a reflection of sheltered naiveté /shrug

  32. I just started reading thru a few of your blog entries yesterday and I'm amazed that someone could pull themselves out a life as hellish as you describe and still come out so well adjusted. Until fairly recently in my life I kinda took for granted being surrounded by friends and family who genuinely cared about me because that’s all I'd known growing up and couldn't imagine how it could be otherwise for anyone else. The idea of a family w/o ANY love for one another was beyond the pale for me and even after I've seen it for myself it still makes my head spin. I guess I might as well share my first experience with MN. The MN that I mentioned in my previous post was actually the first I ever got to know (shes claimed we first met in middle school but I only clearly remember making her acquaintance one fateful day when we were in highschool). Even then I really didn’t have much of an inkling of what I was dealing with until years later, but guess its best I start from the start.

    My first impression of Shandy was that she was a bit weird, eccentric and a little creepy. I suppose the normal reaction of most people to getting a vibe like that would be to walk away and leave it alone but I guess, in my own way, I'm pretty weird myself. Instead of being repulsed, my curiosity was piqued and I decided to try and get to know her. Even early on I noticed her attempts to try and get into my head or throw out comments she seemed to think would bother or unnerve me -- and all with the most magnanimous little smile and mischievous gleam in the eyes as she looked for a reaction on my face. Whenever that’d happen I would always kinda scratch my head and shrug internally; baffled at what I found to be an odd maneuver, and bit amused that she seemed to have no idea how transparent her behavior actually was. I made no reference to her odd passive aggressive comments or gave any hint that I’d noticed them as such. For the rest of our time in HS I just treated her the same as I would any of my friends and, for the most part, just face palmed thru her eccentricities. Even back then she fancied herself a poet. Everything she put to paper was the most silly incoherent gibberish. I remember one in particular entitled “One coconut ‘s Throw from the Banana Tree” – or something goofy like that – which she explained [with the utmost gravity, mind you :P ] was a poetic commentary of the failure of the public school system to help mentally retarded students, and -- erm… Yea…It made even less sense at the time xD

  33. Anywho…

    At the time, her behavior just came off to me and most of my friends as just odd duck , little silly and occasionally . Despite this I continued to hang around her mostly out of curiosity, and partly out of concern, since I never saw her interacting with any of the other kids at school and it seemed like she needed a friend. Drawing had always been my thing growing up and, despite many offers from acquaintances and schoolmates to buy some of my artworks I was always reluctant to part with any of them. I’d only occasionally give some away to friends and Shandy was one of the few people I’d share my drawings with. After graduation we fell out of contact for a while and it wasn’t until a couple years later that we got back in touch and I truly got to know her *and* her mother /shivers

    Things were pretty tame at first. From day one I’d always reacted to her “quirks” which a nonchalant attitude and she became less and less guarded. She actually started confiding in me stuff that would disgust and horrify the average person, among the most tame of which were her childhood dreams of forming her own personality cult, how the idea of human extinction *really* appealed to her, her latest plots to f*ck with some older guys heads (usually 15-20 years older than us) just for the heck of it, or laugh about some choice moments in her therapy sessions. Like I mentioned before, I’d given some of my own drawings to her as gifts and, after we’d gotten back in touch, she confessed to me that she was an artist too. She said her mother had destroyed almost all the drawings she made growing but she still had a few hidden away. She asked if I’d like to see them. “Sure, why not? “, I replied. After getting a look at them I could understand why mommy dearest wouldn’t exactly want her little girl’s drawings hanging proudly on the fringe for guests to see. The images were pretty disturbing, especially considering they were drawn by a kid. One that stuck with me was an image of a mass of contorted, wailing, wraith-like faces scribbled into the paper with forceful pencil strokes. She sheepishly me asked what I thought of her drawings and I just awkwardly scratched my head and replied, “Well, they’re really very evocative…Uhm, very effective.” I remember thinking to myself that maybe she was better off just sticking to her rambling poetry.

  34. Despite being given the grand tour of unsettling and freakish personal life I continued to treat her like any of the other friends I’d grown up with and she (presumably liking the nonthreatening queries and attention she was getting from me) continued to show me around more and more of her twisted mind. Things only started to get a bit hairy between us when I’d get late night calls from her crying, freaking out, and begging me to tell give her advice when one of her hair-brain evil schemes backfired on her. One incident in particular I remember was when one of her marks she met on craigslist (some guy working as a Pentagon employee down in DC) was threatening to call the cops on her.

    Me: “Why are you calling me in the middle of the night asking what you should do? I’ve been telling you for months you should leave the guy alone…“
    Her: “But, Kimani you don’t understand I –“ *boo-hoo-hoo-blah-blah-blah*

    Up until this point she’d already been conspiring for months with a former class mate of ours (some snide and smug kid named Adam -- also a MN) to try and “subtly” break me down and put me in my place, I s’pose. Some eye-roll moments were when he would call her while we were hanging out and start prompting her over the phone on how best to get at me. Around that time I started becoming more harsh and frank in my feedback and criticisms. As started making poignant direct comments such as:

    “Life is not a game and people aren’t toys. Give it a rest already.”
    “I think people like you are the reason why they used to burn witches…”

    …it finally began to dawn on her that I wasn’t quite as oblivious a mark as she fancied me to be. It was then that she started to, erm….panic…and began turning her mind games on me in earnest and I figured it would be fun to play back. All the events leading up to this little adventure and the intrigue that followed could probably fill a book so I’m not gonna bore you with all the details. To make a really long story short, I’ll just say that our little game ended with Shandy & her mother claiming I was possessed by the devil, or something, and Shandy literally running and hiding in the dark of her bedroom. None of her usual circle of acquaintances could reach her for a while and I didn’t hear from her again for another 3 years or so. And that’s the cliff notes version of my first misadventure with a malignant narcicyst. I hope it wasn't to rambling =/

  35. Kimani,
    I don't think it's sheltered naivete. It's just not knowing. Who knows how it's all going to play out? Our species has evolved from barbarians, but sometimes I think evil has just evolved with the times - gone more underground in its manifestations. Optimism is a good choice, the alternative is just too bleak. So we do what we can while we're still here.

  36. Kimani,
    CREEPY and WEIRD are two words that I would use to describe every MN I've encountered. I think most people are naturally repelled by these freaks. They might sense some underlying sinister vibe in them. In adulthood, I encountered a few MNs and was immediately repelled, but the circumstance I found myself in made me ignore my intuition, OR mistakenly believe I could just ignore THEM. You can't ignore an MN when they target you. Anyway, it's probably because you are an artistic type that you were a little intrigued and not completely put-off by Shandy's creepiness. In an odd way, they are fascinating monsters, and she sounds bizarrely evil. Hope she doesn't produce any demon spawn.

  37. Kimani,
    Ps. The projection of Shandy and her mom is classic - claiming YOU are possessed by the devil?!

    Experiences with an MN is stranger than fiction.

  38. Hehe. Its funny you should mention her possibly having demon spawn. I wrote a rhymie poem about her once and a verse of it mentioned something about her spawning abominations. She said she didn't like my poem because it was too coherent...

    No, I'm not making that up -- she really said that lol

  39. Kimani,
    That Shandy was something else. The way you describe her makes me think Stephen King's "Carrie."

    Looks like she turned out be a source of creative inspiration for you... at least that crazy malignant narcissist was good for something.

  40. Hell yeah, NMs will say sorry. They'll do or say absolutely whatever it takes to be a complete and utter bitch. And I don't think they have a personality disorder, I think they are assholes, fair and square. And I believe people are good. That's why narcissists are evil. They are inhuman, fair and square.

  41. Just found your blog and I'm sharing your posts on my Facebook page. Thank you for putting things so succinctly.

  42. Actually, there is one time a malignant very grandiose narcissist will say they're sorry. When they're gay and 23 and you're 42 and just out of a long term difficult relationship. They'll lead you on a 5 year roller coaster of self doubt and sexual seduction. You'll foolishly go along and almost agree to being a part time play thing for them because that initial high they gave you felt so safe and close, like nothing before in you're life. You'll go away for a few years. They'll have a partner their own age, mostly to satisfy and to ensure the continued to support of their socially progressive parents who continue to support them financially at 28. That'll go stale, you'll move back home. They'll creep back in. They always do. Always. Once in a while, they'll say sorry after drawing you back in and infecting your head. They'll say sorry if they've used your for N supply, but not providing anything physical. It's more likely after weeks of being strung along and provided assurances that you'll see them and have that thing you ache for. Sadism, Masochism and Narcissim can really damage a person. Anyone want to shoot a hole in my head?

  43. MNs are hiddeous in their old age. Absolutely hiddeous, it is almost as if aging for them is not a time when they are now wise souls that are a blessing to be around, instead of becoming a beautiful work of art like so many wonderful seniours do through wisdom and kindness, they are instead hiddeous pieces of work.

    Aging for them seems to be a time where their life of nasty deeds seems to come back to haunt them. they are decrepid and hiddeous creatures.

    1. I think a good part of the reason they're so hideous in old age is they no longer have sexual seduction in their arsenal of weapons. They no longer can get the type of attention they crave and seem willing to kill for.

    2. I guess many of us affected by these monsters would like that to be true. But a financially successful MN can buy that attention. The MN in my life simply got (still gets) his supply from sugar babies...from the most successful sugar baby website. The vast amount of women willing to feed the ego, submit to debasement, and sell their bodies a few hours at a time allows him feed his need for adulation in a matter of minutes. A mere click of a button orders a girl and hotel room...a quick text of a room number...maybe a dinner in order to relish in the glory and stories of his fake identity. After tossing $500 in their direction he was "fed" for the evening. "A rich man can get anything he wants" was his proud victory seems to be very true. Never a discussion when he was caught. He loves his life and is getting more cruel and revengeful as he ages. Never a weakness...never a problem his money or revengeful lies wouldn't fix. Money allowed him to ruin others lives for entertainment...bragging about his evilness. MN grow more cruel with every passing year.

  44. I am watching a MN age right now and can you say paranoid? She is schizoid, delusional and paranoid, just like all the text books said she would be.

    So paranoia sets in, the next problem is? is this real or another illness fake for attention? It took me a really long time to figure out that the paranoia is actually real.

    Once you realize it is real, there is no real sadness for the person, it is not like it is a kind gentle person that all of a sudden is paranoid, in those situations you grieve loosing the person.

    In the MNs case, her paranoia is par for the course, her MN has caused the paranoia, her twisted thinking all her life has caused her brain to rewire in the most hiddeous of ways. I don't grieve loosing her, I am relieved that this is finally kind of over, but I do grieve the person she never was, the roles she never filled because she was too self centered to care about anyone but herself.

    Her death when it comes will not be one event, it is more like multiple deaths, her real self died so long ago and each time there is a sign of the next stage of her being gone, it is the next stage of death.

    She really is death personified, her life is like death after death after death somehow.

    So odd watching this stage...

    Have you ever thought of posting about when a MN gets ill, I could share what it is like.

  45. I stumbled upon this site and was amazed. It has explained so much about my evil abusive mother.The beatings,mental abuse and insults that I could not make sense of. I always loved her and felt responsible for her behaviour. Now she is old and I cannot go near her, yet feel guilty for it. The lies and stories she has made up behind my back were the last straw as I now have a grown up family and grandchildren. I am genuinely afraid of what she is capable of as she appears to have no conscience or boundaries. I have only recently truly seen exactly how she operates and at 87 she is still doing harm and shows no sign of stopping, only her tactics have changed. No-one truly believes me as she is a brilliant actress when required. I was so pleased to find this site. It has given me strength and not doubt myself as what I know for a fact is so unbelievable to normal people.

    1. I feel the same way, Anonymous about this site. I'm afraid I'm so happy to have found it I'm blowing it up with comment after comment. Sounds like we could be twins with the elderly bitch putting on an act. Mine is 75 and in perfect health, travels, drinks like a pig, gets cosmetic surgeries, rents gigolos etc. Yet when she's bad-mouthing me to my own kids behind my back she actually puts on a frail little old lady voice. She even tried to pretend she was going senile by repeatedly telling them she was worried about their weather in states we haven't lived in in 20 years, etc. She's been calling people, cities and states whatever the hell she pleases since she was a kid so that's just an act now to make my sons believe I'm cruel for turning my back on a poor wittle ole wary with dementia. She's sharp as a tack. Meanwhile, when we were still in contact and she turned 70, I suggested she take advantage of senior citizen discounts and she accused me of being catty. When she griped endlessly about the bad travel conditions in today's airports and I suggested she curtail her travels or perhaps limit her visits to Europe, China, Africa, etc. to four or five times a year or perhaps cluster her European visits together since she has no pets, she accused me of being jealous and having some nerve trying to tell her what to do. I honestly couldn't care less and would have loved to hear that someone in another culture that isn't used to hearing big mouth older women dressed in black leather pants with spiked pink, purple and blue hair would smack her across the face or worse. Uggh, I'm getting carried away with my bitterness. That's my biggest problem these days ... getting that old thieving whore out of my head!

    2. Anonymous,
      You don't sound bitter at all. You tell it like it is, and that thieving old whore sounds like one hell of a piece of work. A loud mouth 75 year old clad in black leather pants with spikey clown colored hair?! Too much. You MUST be jealous of her. Hahaha! These narcs are so deluded they think don't age. So yeah, they get pissed-off when we bring it to their attention, even if we do it in a thoughtful way. If they're losing their hearing they blame us for mumbling. And they call other seniors old folks. Meanwhile, they're the exact same age... maybe older. But they don't see themselves that way. Their mirrors are definitely stuck in a time warp.

      I'm sure your mother will offend the wrong person eventually, and get a swift smack across the face. Hell, I'm offended by her fashion crimes!

    3. Fashion crimes LOL!!!

      In the name of having just one parent to love and hopefully love me back someday, I was willing to tolerate her pathological self-absorption which rendered us unable to talk about anything under the sun without her making it all about her; I was willing to let her say any accomplishment I had was thanks to her and any injury, accident or calamity was naturally my fault; I was willing to suffer the humiliating remarks, stares and giggles when we were out in public and she acted like she thought she was Zja Zja Gabor or an elderly Lindsay Lohan and that everyone is fascinated with her; I was willing to overlook that she abandoned me as a baby only to tear me away from my wonderful grandparents and bring me overseas to abuse me; I was willing to overlook the torture and beatings that stole my childhood and dignity as she only worried about her skin or my father getting into trouble; I was willing to pretend I didn't remember her begging my father on her knees for her life or for him to stay when he wanted to leave right after beating us both up or cheating on her; I was willing to pretend I didn't know she stole my entire inheritance so long as she kept her loud redundant promises of paying for kids' college educations (which she didn't do unless you consider giving them $200 a year paying for their education); I was willing to let her blame me for my sociopathic father because I look like him as if her picking him out and begging him to stay with her (as I begged her to let him go) was somehow my fault; I was willing to listen to her divulge intimate details of our past to perfect strangers and rewrite history to the point where she would actually describe herself as a heroine or "protective mother" as these strangers would usually wince in disgust (probably because I would practically slide under the restaurant table in embarrassment); I was even willing to put up with her insults about how my husband should leave me for someone better looking so long. So. Long. As. She. Never. Hurt. My. Kids.

      Then she not only hurled catty insults at my daughter but tried to get my bipolar son to cease his meds, and then tried not only to set him against our entire family and his doctors but urged him to marry a nut who had started to batter him after a few months of dating. She needed to see someone else in the family screw up his life like she had since I had let her down and seriously offended her by being married over 30 years to a good guy who obviously loves me and our children. Trying to hurt any of my kids was where I finally drew the line and frankly, I'm ashamed I let her get this far in our lives.

  46. Thank you for all the comments. At last, I am not going crazy,there are mothers who are cruel, spiteful and evil but with a totally inflated and distorted image of themselves and they manage to convince most people,even victims of their abuse. I now know what I always suspected, that she has gained great pleasure from the pain she caused me and she is a danger to my sanity. I cannot convince other family members she is lying when she makes up horrible lies about me as normal people dont lie on that scale so find it hard to believe anyone would. She doesn't care if she gets found out as she will just make up another lie to cover it. It makes me sad but I must stay well away, only thing is I know I will pay for that in some way, just don't know how or when.

  47. Anon (3 January 2012)
    I would be interested in hearing about your experience when a MN gets ill. I haven't seen or spoken to MN mother in 21 years so I don't know about her... BUT, I did hear that when she got a hip replacement she was the worst patient! She would scream, shout, throw tantrums. MN sister had health issues growing-up and she milked her patient status for all its worth. Being sick worked for her in my Nfamily so she became a hypochondriac and has been riddled with mysterious illnesses all her life. It's how she maintains control, special priviledges, dodges accountability for her behaviour, remains pathologically entitled etc. etc. Her poor me - I've got health problems - patient status is her primary mask. She wants people to feel sorry for her and they do. It's a pathetic, parasitic way of life. My MN father is different, he's low key. He's got old age illnesses and seems to have the best medical care. He sees doctors all the time, and I think he likes all the attention he gets... it's just another source of supply. He's got to get it somewhere, he's pretty much been abandoned by those near and dear.

  48. There is so little written on the topic of when they get ill and from my standpoint, wow, it is unbelievable what I see. It is almost sad actually.

    I can't help but think that it must be the result of how she has twisted her mind for all those years. All the N traits actually turn on her and start to hurt her now more then anyone else.

    She is crashing and burning and I feel a deep sense of mourning actually. I feel a sense of wishing this could have been different. It somehow feels so dark, so evil.

    Perhaps I could email you more detail, it would make a great post for someone like you who writes so well and it would help alot of people who are in the same boat and very confused.

    I am going to be away for about a week, maybe less, maybe a few days more, perhaps I could email you upon my return.

  49. Anonymous,
    Thanks for your comments. When you get a chance it would be great to hear from you. Are you talking about physical illness, and nearing death? In any case, feel free to shoot me an email when you can find the time. It's an important subject given the fact that most of us are dealing with aging MN parents whose mental illness (related to being a MN) is advancing at a rapid pace... their mental incapacity no doubt plays a significant role in how they deal with physical illness and death.

    I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this.

  50. I personally think the Malignant Narcissim itself has made her ill, I read that MN can do that

    No one knows what she has because she is so strong willed that there is no way that she could ever be ill (Gods never die) that she refuses medical diagnosis, anyone that talks to her doctor to try and help her, she hears and flies into N Rage and goes around for months punishing the person, calling them liar, telling them that by telling these *lies* they are attempting to murder her.

    Paranoia is obvious, locks on all doors, even bedroom ones, cameras all over the place, stern warning to all that everything that goes on near her is recorded somewhere, but the end result is that she is crashing and burning and getting absolutely no help for whatever it is that is wrong.

    Her Malignant Narcissism was and is severe and honestly it seems that the Malignant Narcissism is actually what is killing her in the end, the way all her warped thinking is is severely working against her.

    It is like watching Satan turn on one of his followers.

  51. First, bless you all for these helpful posts. A few points for discussion.

    1. As much as I would like to believe that "the mask" shatters, my experience with my MN is that he has a genius for finding ambassadors to take up his cause. While this facility has waned somewhat with age, his capacity to find emissaries to deliver "what kind of son/daughter are you for ignoring your poor father" remains formidable. These ambassadors, of course, don't have to live with the consequences of their admonitions; they can just go back to their own MN-less lives.
    2. The most important theme in this blog has been that sometimes distance is your only move because MNs will kill you. No more of this "communicate" and "forgiveness" crap. Those platitudes only work with people with whom you can do business, not MNs. Thirty years ago I sought medical treatment for breathing and heart problems in reaction to my MN parent and, after a battery of tests, a psychiatrist said, "I'll make this very easy for you but you won't understand it for decades: Run like hell. And, yes, sometimes 'running away from your problems' IS the answer."
    3. I worry a little about the cultural overuse of the word "narcissist." It seems like it is used by everybody that has a beef with somebody they don't like. While I'm not an expert on the lingo, I do think there is something to be said for beefing up the role of psychopathy, sociopathy and insanity as we all struggle to understand this better.

    Thanks for everyone's wisdom. I'm learning a lot. Lucy

  52. Lucy,
    Thank you for your fantastic, and insightful comment. I'll start from the bottom up.

    Yes. I do believe the word "narcissist" has become part of the pop-culture venacular. Those of us who have known actual "Narcissists" understand damn well the havoc they wreak on people's lives, minds, hearts, emotions and souls... so what may be a narcissist to one person, may not be a narcissist to another... especially, if they have experienced a malignant narcissist which is really no different from a psychopath or sociopath. I don't like to split hairs on terminology on this blog. BUT, psychopath, sociopath and malignant narcissist are one and the same as far as I'm concerned.

    Yes!! Running away and going NO CONTACT "IS" the answer to malignant narcissists. They are NOT normal, so you can't reason with them. I've been NC 21 years. No regrets. AND, during that 21 years, I really never did doubt my decision... BUT, I got an opportunity to "test" my decision and was IMMEDIATELY reaffirmed that what I did was right. NC from MNs, is probably the closest thing I have to a religion... And a political view. I will stand by this and advocate this for the rest of my life.

    As far as the mask goes. I think some MNs are so mentally gone that it shatters, and they rely on that to maintain their power and control. In otherwords, they take full advantage of being crazy and evil in old age because people allow old folks cart blanche to do/act/behave in whatever way they want... no matter how inappropriate... While some MNs are quite cunning right up till the bitter end. Some of them keep their mental facilities in tact, and they plot and scheme. AND, yes the "Ambassadors" for these crazy fucks can go back to their own MN LESS LIVES... never being the wiser, or at leat pretending not to be. My point is, some MN's mental health degenerates faster than others.

    At this point I dont know what's worse. The one who "appears" crazy or the one who doesn't "appear" crazy. It's a safe call to say that they're all crazy.

    My answer to that conundrum is NO CONTACT. I don't want to be involved on any level.

  53. Lots of wisdom here, Lisette. I think you hit the important issue, which is that for practical purposes there is little difference between a MN and a sociopath or psychopath.

    I think for those of us who need confidence that we are not the moral monsters for deserting the "weak" parent, it's perversely more comforting to know that we're running from a psychopath than a mere turbo-narcissist. Lots of folks fall somewhere along the narcissist spectrum; but few are psychopaths. Furthermore, one need not be a serial killer to be a destructive psychopath.

    In the case relevant to my family, we're dealing with someone who appears to be as scary as a muppet, but has been highly effective during a long reign of terror.

    You are to be praised for encouraging this dialogue and for doing so in such a civil manner, which is hard to come by these days.

  54. Moderator,

    [With red face:] I didn't realize I was being redundant and had said everything before on this thread. Sorry about that. Please disregard my previous post of today. I'm embarrassed.

    1. I didn't find your comment redundant at all. You peeled a few more layers off the onion, layers that many of us can relate to.


  55. You forgot to mention the lying. The constant, don't think about it, do it like it's breathing to them, knee jerk, lie about anything no matter how small or insignificant (because the truth never enters their mind) half-truths, hiding, sneaking, blatant, twisted LYING.

    1. adultdaughter of a 'scary mommy':

      This blog is amazing. I did the ping pong dance with my MN 'mother' (I use the words loosely, as I think that a tarantula had more maternal affection for her offspring than my 'mother' had for me. The thing that is so sick about my scary ass mommy dearest is that as I matured and developed into a relatively 'normal' human being, she seemed to seethe as she watched me pick up the pieces of my life and move on without her with limited contact. I was ignorant about Malignant Narcissism at that age as most of us were and I just thought that if I 'trained' my mom to respect me by intermittently cutting off contact, she would see the error in her ways and change. This just further enraged her until finally one day when I was in my early twenties, she actually physically attacked me when I retorted to her insulting my weight (at the time I was *maybe* 15 lbs overweight) that she "would never change". I never raised my voice, just said it as an observed matter of fact and she charged at me like a wild beast and actually grabbed me by the ponytail as I was descending her staircase, attempting to leave the nuttier than squirrel shit woman and her abuse. I should have called the police on my mother looking back on it and I am sorry that I did not. She uses illnesses feigned and real to manipulate guilt and I foolishly got sucked back in a few years after that incident, to my misfortune. I think that after that incident, I stayed in contact with her to to 'test her, to see if someone that evil could ever really reform until recently when we were chatting over the phone and once again, she was invalidating me over some insignificant matter and kept reminding me that SHE was the mother, NOT me. I finally said in a quiet but firm tone, "Just stop browbeating me then, ok?" She SCREAMED at the top of her lungs, "THAT'S A FUCKING LIE!!!!!!!" She followed it up with a text message the next day, claiming that she "didn't know what happened", telling me that we shouldn't fuss and fight because "we need each other". That did it. That was all it took to make me see that this is one rabid, dangerous leopard that will never change her spots. I texted her back, told her that I would no longer take her shit just because she's had a shitty life, I also said that i knew what happened, her mask slipped and told her in no uncertain terms to stay away from me. I no longer delude myself that this person will ever change, and I realize that she is actually a dangerous person, not just emotionally. Be grateful when the masks slip, my sisters and brothers from MN misters and mothers. It could save your life.

      "It's funny that way
      you can get used to the tears and the pain
      whaaaaat a child will believe, you never loved me
      you can't hurt me know
      I got away from you
      I never thought I would
      You can't make me cry
      You once had the power
      I never felt so good about myself"

      (above lyrics from the vintage Madonna track"You Can't Hurt Me Now)

  56. P.s from "Adult daughter of Scary Mommy:

    Oops, my bad! The lyrics that I posted are actually from the track "Oh Father" by Madonna.

  57. Thanks for this. "Oh Mother"... "Oh Father" - all interchangeable. Great lyrics! YOU CAN'T HURT ME NOW.

    "She SCREAMED at the top of her lungs, "THAT'S A FUCKING LIE!!!!!!!" She followed it up with a text message the next day, claiming that she "didn't know what happened", telling me that we shouldn't fuss and fight because "we need each other."

    Yeah right - the narcs "need" victims, period. They are pathetic, needy parasites and can't live without a host to feed on. WE DO NOT NEED THEM! NEVER HAVE, NEVER WILL!

    Kudos to you for moving-on past the N insanity!

    May the force of reality stay with you!

  58. It just dawned on me, that the NARCs DO NOT have any power at all. All this was an illusion... After discovering and studying NPD and the redflags to look for and how to respond to them, the "victims" are the ones with all the power.

  59. The reason why the narcs have any power at all is because the bystanders around them and others who give them the power. They don't hold them accountable. Some don't want to get involved even though they know who these people are. They'd rather just stay away lest they get it from the narc/psycho. They are afraid of what these people will do to them. Then you have the bystanders who are their foo or "friends." They are the co-narcs. They have their own agenda to get what they want so they gladly help out the head narcs with their dullusions by agreeing with them and going against the scapegoat(as always).

  60. I am new at realizing my mother is a MN. So much is making sense I'm reeling from it all. It took me 45 years but I'm ready to be done with her CONTINUAL abuse to me even now. Screw it! I'm done! Thank you to every person on here that commeneted. My shock and depression at what I'm learning is made better when I KNOW now, that I'm not ALONE!!! xoxoxoxoxoxo to you all! And thank you blogger!!!

  61. Thank you all. You all tell my story. NM whom I now believe to be MNM, committed the longest suicide on record & starved herself for 18 months as EF watched & cared for her. Finally from the horror show & work, EF has a heart attack with surgery and complications. NM meanwhile never got out of a bed & reduced to half her body weight. EF survives, comes home & MNM does not let him rest. He has been in ICU 4-5 times in as many months. He probably will die. NM will have murdered him without committing a crime they can charge her with. 2-3 weeks before NM was told she would die, her appetite returned. I am the SG. Nothing worked to save my EF (enabling father) from her so I resorted to blunt truth. He refuses to talk to me now.
    The cruelties she doled out on me and just did again even with NC bc I was still in contact with EF - she got me through lies she told her nurse who told my EF----- are horrendous and insidious. these people are demons whose deaths makes the planet a better place. Thank you for reminding me I am not alone in the Family Freak show. My life has been a nightmare. The mask does slip crack break and fall. She is nothing short of a vile freak of a monster. And yes, previously she was decked out like Cher most of her life.... then this. No words in the human language for the repulsive malignant behavior of these horrible creatures and the ugliness and pain they spread everywhere they go especially destroying the family from the core. They are EVIL.

  62. What I've been noticing with aging nparents is that they enable the young adult "golden" grandchildren. I have to say I'm pretty shocked... Even their parents could careless. It's not that they didn't enable my sibs, but their enabling with the grdkids is much more worse. Unfortunately, I don't see much hope for these kids getting out of this narc system.

    As long as nparents can keep the grdkids in their narc web, that's all that matters to them. Not their grandkids well being. Selfish, selfish people...

    Anybody else experience this with their sibs kids?

  63. Yes they really are evil. My N father asked me when I was a child "This chair is mine what is yours in this house?" And after my first period he do not forget to stress that now I have to clean properly bath tube after using it. I felt so worthless.

    They can literally cut you with knives and study your reactions with sick pleasure. Maybe it has nothing to do with psychology they are simply evil because they do know what they are saying and doing and they have strange unexpected reactions if they know nobody will caught them. Narcs are monsters in human body.

  64. I have been struggling for years to find the definition of what my mother is. After reading everyone's posts I have a pretty good idea, but I guess I need some clarification to know that I am not the crazy, bad, do-nothing-daughter my mother makes me out to be.

    I will try to condense my life into a few points about how my mother has been and perhaps someone can enlighten me as to what they think! I would appreciate the input.

    -years of telling me I do nothing for her (even though I have literally been a work horse for her since I was a child)
    -stealing from me
    -physically abusive
    -emotionally abusive
    -extremely bad temper
    -extremely racist and seems to take pleasure in harping on the subject when I tell her it hurts me to hear the things she says
    -lying to me
    -pitting my sister and I against each other
    -bad mouthing the whole family behind their backs
    -emotionally unstable and unable to handle any sort of change or upset
    -feels entitled, that the world revolves around her
    -jealous of anyone's good fortune
    -does not EVER say she's sorry or admits wrongdoing
    -very selfish and would never think of helping anyone who needed it
    -dominating and loud
    -nothing I do is EVER good enough

    What category does she fall into??

    1. From what you describe, she definitely falls into the malignant narcissist category. The fact that you need some clarification to know that YOU are not the crazy, bad, do-nothing daughter your MN mother makes you out be just cinches the deal as far as I'm concerned.

    2. I 100% agree with Lisette. Your list describes my mother to a T, and she was pegged by psychologists as "sociopathic" and a MN (these terms are pretty much interchangeable)...The good news is that you are NOT crazy. It's not you, and never was; you only feel this was because you have probably spent your whole life trying to make sense out of crazy, and trying to do what was never possible - appeasing her. If you're anything like me, you may have also spent plenty of time trying to be the perfect daughter; putting forth so much effort to do everything just right in the hopes that she'd wake up one day and realize that she made a mistake; you aren't as bad as she thought you were...I hope you can find some solace in the fact that this will never happen. When you get to a place where you realize, and fully accept that it's not possible, you will then begin to focus your energy elsewhere. Focus on yourself and enjoy your life - you deserve peace and happiness.


    3. Thank you so much for your thoughts. This puts a lot into perspective. I know I have to set boundaries now, before she ruins what is left of me. It's just such a hard thing to do because when you think of the word "mother", she should be some one you cherish, not someone you have to "get away from". Peace to you all.

    4. And peace to you Anon.

      If you can, please check-out the blog post "The Dangers of Malignant Narcissism." I think it's the only September 2011 post. Anyhow, the topic of the "label" of motherhood comes up and there are some great comments and discussion. If you can, you need to eff the label and the DNA relationship for your own sanity. MNs are, what they are, whethers it's some malicious neighbour, co-worker or your own frail little old mother. They are destructive and dangerous and sadly there is no hope for them.

      Yes, please set boundaries and if possible work your way to NO CONTACT all together. It's really when we rid ourselves and our lives of their insanity that we gain perspective on the MN's evil ways and the toxic relationships they cultivate to remain in control.

      Again, "Mother" is just a word, a label. True mother's express love to their children, even when they've lost that loving feeling. It's a choice, and a pattern of behavior that let's us know we are safe and cared for. Being a Mother in the true sense of the word requires work. It's about actions, behaviour, deeds... not some flimsy title. No one is perfect, and I don't doubt for a second that motherhood is difficult, but mainly I see it as a choice to love despite all odds. MNs CHOOSE to harm in almost every human relationship... particularly with their children.

      Hope you can find your way to NC and just take it from there.


  65. Some years ago my mother tried playing the guilt card saying that she was my mother and that alone gave her authority over my actions. I told her that just because someone has children doesn't make them a mother. Just like someone who owns a piano does not make them a pianist. The look on her face was priceless.

    1. Ya, they like playing that "authority" card. Nm told me that I'm suppose to honor her as the Bible says, no matter how she treats me. Its funny how they tell on themselves.

    2. It is funny how "they tell on themselves."

      My experience with all narcs - family, or not - is that they like to... well... tell on themselves.

      I swear, they get off on giving away little hints of their deceit. I've witnessed this. It truly is bizarre. It's like they're saying, "I'm bad and I got away with it. Did you catch it??"

      Well, now I did. Freak!!! Thanks for confirming my suspiscions!

      They really aren't that clever. And once you study their moves, they all operate the same.

  66. I came across this blog while seeking guidance on how to handle recurrent nightmares of my aging narcissistic mother attempting to murder me and my family. Although I haven't spoken with her in several years and live a few continents away, her violence and hatred continues to haunt me on a daily basis. Even in my mid-thirties and after many years of therapy, she still manages to terrorize me. Her words- that I'm "a little bitch", "worthless", "stupid", "a waste"- play over and over in my head. Her hands- clawing at my face, slamming me into walls, strangling my neck- I still feel them. Her threats- to destroy everything I love- hover over all of my joys. And yet, when I hear from my sibling that she's frail and demented, a part of me feels like I should somehow be able to fix it all. These dreams lately are dragging me down. Can children of violent narcissists ever have normal lives? I often wonder if these soul murderers are even human beings. Anyway, thank you so much for your insights and hugs to all the sons and daughters who are struggling with this.

    1. Anonymous 2July 2012 05:25

      Can children of violent narcissists ever have normal lives? I often wonder if these soul murderers are even human beings.

      You can have a normal life, if that's what you choose. There are alot of options available to assist your healing...just keep searching for them and praying. The answers will come to you. You can start by googling "Energy Healing" and see what comes up. Also, these creatures are not human...they are parasites...just look in their eyes and you'll see what I'm talking about. The look that they give is a look of desperation, neediness, etc. Next time just look, you'll see what I'm talking about.

  67. Hello, I am 50 years old and it took me until now to realize how malignant my mother was. There were 10 of us kids and as adults we all suffer from emotional illness, alcoholism or personality disorders. I've struggled my entire adult life to NOT be like my mother with my kids. My problem is that I know what a terrible life my mother had as a child and I saw the terrible emotional as well as physical pain my younger siblings suffered. Several of my siblings have become just like her. The thing that I cannot seem to get past is whether these MN are choosing their behavior or whether they are so damaged from their environments that they cannot function normally. I agree completely that they are monsters and the damage they do is tremendous. How do I reconcile their behavior now with the images I have of them as tormented children of 3 and 4 years old? It's hard for me to separate the victims they were from the perpetrators they are now. I've seen a counselor about this for a year and she advocates keeping them out of my life and trying to forgive for my own sake, but how do I get rid of the images I have of them as the brutalized tiny children they were?

    1. Anonymous,

      First off, kudos to your counsellor for advocating what sounds like NO CONTACT, and forgiving on your terms and for your sake.

      Hmmm. Maligant Narcissists as brutalized little victims? Who exactly is relaying your mother's terrible life as a child to you? Who has planted these images in your mind of your mother being tormented at 3 or 4? Just curious.

      This is a huge topic - nurture vs nature and the cause of malignant narcissism, and one that I've been researching for some time. I hope to address this issue in my next post. Hopefully, that will be sooner rather than later.

      Your mother did a damn good job of damaging or destroying her own children. Yet you struggled to OVERCOME her hateful ways and the crimes she perpetrated against you and your siblings in order to protect your own children. Sounds like you made a conscious choice to do good and right by your children.

      I wonder what the difference is between you two? That is; you and your MN mother?

    2. Yes, you are right, I only know of my mother's childhood based on stories I've heard. I guess I was referring to my younger siblings. There are two in particular, a sister and brother, who's behavior is almost beyond MN - is there such a thing as "extra MN?" My sister attempted to have her niece fake-raped to teacher her a lesson not to kiss boys on the first date. She forcefully argued with the doctors at a hospital where another sister was in the process of being transferred to a psych hospital after an attempted suicide and somehow managed to have her discharged. The sister who was in the hospital eventually committed suicide. The MN sister's reason was that she was going to take our sister home and cure her with homeopathic medicine. Not to mention the physical and emotional abuse she has done to her children. Same with my brother. He has killed 2 dogs and a cat in his 20s, been involved with the police dozens of times and always gets out of it somehow. Has had dozens of affairs beginning days after he was married. I'm just stating these things as evidence that they truly are evil. BUT, it is their faces I see as 3 and 4 years old - the extreme fear, terror we all felt growing up. I was the oldest girl so I took care of them. I did make a conscious decision to be different, but I guess my question is, at a certain point maybe the damage done to them is so bad it causes the inability to make such conscious decisions. I am not a doctor, obviously, and also have been reading about this. I can't seem to find clear-cut answers and wondered what your opinion was. At one point we are all born with "souls" or at least innocent - at what point does the "soul" leave the child and a monster enter?

  68. After years of trying to figure out what is wrong with my mother the internet has finally helped me to realize that it has to be malignant narcissism. She has definitely gotten worse as the people who might have kept her in check all died. Now at age 86 she only has regular contact with one grand daughter who is worse than she is and they seem to feed off each other. False accusations- threats- screaming rages- insults- etc. Over a lifetime has resulted in me having no contact. My mother says everyone is going to hell for not treating her right and spent my teen years telling i was going there yet she does not know the bible. When i became a christian at age 21 she spent years ridiculing me and delighted when i was upset that she changed over to a totally different denomination. If someone dies or is very ill she goes into rages and accuses people of not helping her. It is so bizarre and repulsive. If only the internet had been around years ago. I'd have searched and seen similar stories and saved myself and my husband years of misery and being afraid to answer our phone. Another noticeable thing with the aging is there is more conversation but it is still fo used on self and gossip about others mingled in with the usual elderly way of talking about growing up-her parents- siblings- etc. I have gradually cut off contact and gave warning and reasons beforehand but she really could care less. I am just someone to rage at and a scapegoat in her world.

  69. Thank you for this quote "The only so-called feelings the narcissist understands are their own. For example; the sting of a bruised ego; the frustration that comes with not being in complete control; anger from not getting their way; envy from wanting what others have; jealousy from not getting all the attention; fear of exposure; hatred of all their inferiors; pity for themselves; smug satisfaction."

    For some reason, this has helped me make more sense of my moms behavior. I am five years NC now, but she still constantly stalks me. She does all these manipulative things, like sending her flying monkeys to spy, etc. She writes letter ordering me to forgive her, and on and on and on, all the while, like you said, totally and completely dismissing her horrific behavior that lead to abandonment in the first place. I asked my husband, "if she is so desperate to see us, why not just apologize? why all these side ways antics?" and my husband said, "because, your mother is not sorry, and she feels entitled to act the way she did"

    But even so, since they are liars and cheats, why not pretend to apologize, so she can get me close enough so she can slap me again!

    And you quote explains that. The only feelings they understand are their own. Their frustration of not being able to control someone, their hurt and resentment of not getting what they want, etc.

    All my mom is thinking about is how she's lost supply from me and my kids that she abused. Thats all she is thinking about. Because she did nothing wrong in her mind, she has no idea that we truly have banished her. Her communication is as if we are long lost friends, and lets get together to celebrate your birthday!!

    I dont think she knows or even cares, that I am aware that she is only interested in hurting me and my children for her entertainment.

    I like you describe MNs as trying to elicit the desired response from us like pulling a lever, or turning on a switch of some sort. This is what I find the most telling about their flawed character. There is no consistency from one moment to the next. Its like their memory has been wiped each day, and what they did, thought, beleived one day, magically changes depending on what their current agenda is.

    I was married to a horrific man. My mom loved this, took his side, and they were a united front against me. Then, when my ex lost his rights to his child, and it was so obvious even on paper what a scumbag he was, my mom magically switched teams, and would make proclamations about her being on my side all along. Disgusting. If you brought to her attention what she REALLY did, she would rage and snap.

  70. At 52 I cannot figure out how it took me this long to know exactly what was wrong with my mother. My sisters and brothers are older and as children she already had her enablers and victims picked so I tried to fly under the radar mostly, and left home young, moving to a different state and rarely saw her, until 2 yrs ago, feeling sorry for her getting old and alone, I let her move in with my husband and I. Wow what a mistake, she has created drama, cursed us, cursed my inlaws, spread rumors and lies. She is now ( secretly ) planning on moving out and into a place with one of my sisters ( an enabler and pos N herself , definitely a compulsive liar ) I have not let on that I know, and now for many weeks she has been stealing things to use in their upcoming place . She has stolen off other sisters, sued one, and has always gotten by with it. Not this time, I am holding her money and when she moves, I will subtract for the items stolen. Then I will have nothing further to do with her. I feel sad for her, but do not feel any guilt, I tried to help her and she has done nothing but lie and steal . she is supposedly going on vacation with sis for 2 weeks ( actually looking for apartment ) when they pick her up that night I plan on telling her she has effectively moved out and to only come back with uhaul to retrieve her things , Is this wise or should I let her play it all the way out? ( she is planning on coming back after " vacation " for a couple of weeks to finish packing up and maybe finish steaaling what they will need !

    1. Anonymous,

      There's some good advice from the Anonymous poster below.

      I was also thinking, don't breath a word to the MN what your plans are. If you tell her what you're going to do before she goes on vacation, she will have 2 weeks to plot and scheme with the help of your sister. An ambush is always best. Play your cards close to your vest.

  71. With my experience, the only wise thing to do is what you can control. In your plan, if you are depending on her acting in a certain way, then, your plan will fail.

    Your plan has to be dependent on ONLY what you can control. If I were you, I would have her stuff packed up and shipped somewhere, and call it a day. Whatever she stole from you, deduct it now, (you have access to her bank account?)

    When I left my MN husband, at first I was plotting to leave, but my plan wasnt full proof because I was still treating him like a normal human being.

    After I consulted with an attorney and abuse counselor, they saw how my plan was flawed. They told me to get out of the house and move while he was gone, and then serve him with a restraining order and divorce papers.

    That was the SMARTEST thing I ever did. The restraining order put in writing all the abuse, and it was out there, (a 3rd party authority always helps)

    So that is my advice. Whatever your plan is, make it full proof, in that you are only depending on YOU, and not your MNs cooperation.

    1. well, my sister came to pick up nm this afternoon, when she called and said she was an hour away, I did tell mother that I knew everything, including that she stole from me ( denied ) I even told her that one day when she thought I had gone for a while, I was standing in my bedroom and watched her come into my bedroom and search the top of dresser,, she even denied that ! Have not given her back her money that I was keeping for her yet, and I won't until she has come back in 2 weeks to retrieve her things. which she is accusing me of stealing her money now, repeatedly, to anyone that will listen, and I told her that if she kept saying it , I might as well do it , then asked if she realized where she got the money to start with , she said off my aunt, I reminded her that my aunt had given it to my sister and she sued her for it , basically stealing it off my sister ! though she turned red, left the room and never said anything until my other sis came to pick her up, she didn't rage, or do the pity cry, which surprised me. I realize that full blown character assasination will start even harder now, but she only has like 2 people that even listen to her anymore, still , I feel sad, waking up to what will not be ( no true mother ) never be and has never been, with no possible way of it ever being anything, is sad, she is 82 , and in 2 weeks when she comes to retrieve her stuff, will likely be the last time I will ever see her. Thanks to strong people like the posters and bloggers, I know it is the only thing to do,, thanks

  72. OMG!! This is all amazing, i have now been divorced for 3 years and have three young children, i have only just worked out what and why my life has been so hard and that is because my ex husband is a MN!! everything you all have said i have been through or am going through!! thankyou all for sharing you have given me hope that there is others like me out there (as sad as that is) and i am not the one going insane!! Thankyou Thankyou
    But can some one help me i have three young children (as i said) who still spend time with there father and it is getting to the point that his emotional/phycological abuse is affecting the children and i have no back up from anyone because (as rarely these people are) it is not a diagnosed condition he has. How can i protect my kids from the damage that he is causing when no one understands what he is doing and the emotional damage is so hard to prove. But now i am scared that he will take things to the next level and cause harm, not that he has directly said that but in his twisted he is giving me that fear??? what do i do??

  73. Yes, this is a very difficult situation, but not an IMPOSSIBLE one. what makes all the difference is your awareness. I did not know what NPD was, until well after I was divorced. Like you, I shared a child with this man, but I didnt realize I wasnt dealing with a human.

    Once you become educated about this disorder, and how people like your MN husband act, it becomes a lot easier to deal with them, as you start to see their obvious and predictable patterns.

    I would not be so concerned about talking to other people, trying to convince them. Just to get to know the person he really is, now that you know the truth. Keep a journal, and when things that he says or does hits you in a bizarre way, take note, and explore your true feelings.

    I have found coming to blogs like this to be very helpful. Forums can be helpful too, but sometimes, they attract disordered people too, so you do have to be watchful and mindful.

    But dont panic. Just be aware, learn, get educated, read books. I've found reading to be very insightful.

    Long story short, after I knew what I was dealing with, life with my N ex husband was a lot easier to bear. His manipulations became easier to shut down. After a while, you are just done. But the N in your life, they never change. Its like they go around in circles, doing and saying the same dumb things, not aware that watching them is like watching a predictable, and BAD movie.

  74. WOW!! I've been on several sites for a good while now trying to get my head around these nasty, evil narcisstic parents that I have, especially my mother. The article above has really blown me away with its accuracy. The photo and description of that awful look that my mother has given to me for 56 years has made me shiver, and I feel cheated and robbed of my life and the happiness that could have been. I wish with all my heart that I had done the no contact sooner, but I have tried and have always gone back hoping that things might change because I have been so desperate to be loved without realising it...The ugliness has become so bad that I feel if I go near them again then I could die, because my mother especially is so evil and cruel that its just gone beyond me. All I can do is give it to God, because I'm almost done with all this suffering and pain that's nearly cost me my life...

    1. SiennaRose, the reality is, contact with these monsters IS soul crushing and life destroying. You owe it to your self to be safe, and the only way to remain safe is NO CONTACT. Also, it's next to impossible to start processing all this stuff with any, even the slightest bit of N influence. Your survival instincts have kicked in and that's a good thing. You clearly know that your mother is dangerous, and she should be treated as such. NC all the way... all the way home to your Self!

  75. It pays to keep in mind that NPD is a spectrum disorder and this is what makes it tricky to pin down at times, leaving you confused, sad, guilty and so on. Some may be borderline NP, others somewhere in the middle and hopefully the smaller number, at the extreme end i.e. easy to spot and avoid at all costs. Malignant.

    Personally I spent a good year or more researching, digesting and otherwise working out that the problem with my Dad was NPD. Now that I have and the rest of my family has also come to understand this, it makes it much, much easier to deal with in some respects. It's as if I have processed it and now I can have fairly easy interactions with him, knowing full well the level that he operates on. I am at a distance to him anyways, living overseas. My sister and mum were not as lucky.

    As I read on one particularly informative site: "Expect to have to clean after them, lose friends over them and expect BIG trouble sooner or later, EVEN IF things have been looking relatively smooth to date"

    This is particularly true. They will trash your reputation in a heartbeat and alienate you from other healthy people that can help you cope. This behaviour is just easy for them, as they know no other rational, empathetic way of behaving.

    You cannot really treat NPD very well because treatment often arms a narcissist with more weaponry to manipulate.

    1. Anonymous, I am well aware that NPD is a spectrum disorder, I even mention in the blog post that regular narcissists seem to stay the same as they get older; it's the malignant narcissists that get worse with age. Hence the title: Malgnant Narcissists Get Worse With Age.

      Who is confused, sad or guilty? I don't read that anywhere in my blog post or in the comments. And frankly, I don't believe NPD is that difficult to pin down once you know what to look for: Lack of Empathy.

      "It's as if I have processed it and now I can have fairly easy interactions with him, knowing full well the level that he operates on. I am at a distance to him anyways, living overseas."

      No wonder your interactions are fairly easy with him - you live on a different continent.

      Then you say; "They will trash your reputation in a heartbeat and alienate you from other healthy people that can help you cope."

      So what is it? Is is easy to interact with your NPD father or is he trashing your reputation and alienating you?

      Is your father a Narcissist or a Malignant Narcissist? Do you know the difference between the two?

      You are all over the map on your post.

      No one on this blog is sad, confused, or guilty over a narcissist. No one on this blog believes that NPD is treatable. And we all know why they behave the way they do: it makes them feel good.

      Ps. Malignant narcissists are not always easy to spot and avoid at all costs. The more evil they are, the more deeply they go under cover. Why is that so many evil MN parents can fool so many people? How come so many evil MN mothers are looked on by others as the sweetest little old lady in the world?

      One needs more than a text book understanding of this stuff to really get it.

    2. Most people consider my parents a darling little old couple yet they have made a career of deliberately battering their children with impossible demands, quilt trips, gas lighting, and just about any other form of emotional abuse they can conjure up from their extensive repertoire. Growing up in an atmosphere of daily uncertainty with a malignant narcissist for a father and a quietly manipulative narcissist for a mother was a daily nightmare. My father would go into frightening rages over the smallest perceived slight to his massive ego and my mother would smile sweetly as, fists clenched, he dished his filth an inch from my face.

      Being conditioned to believe that a daughter (I had two brothers) was responsible for her parents well-being I continued to accept their abuse as my lot in life for over sixty years.

      The icing on the cake...the old man got nastier and even more unpredictable as he got older. Lately, he "slips" more often in front of outsiders but they excuse his behaviour because of his age.

      No matter what tactic I tried or how detached I became there was no such thing as an "easy interaction" with my sick fuck of a father who is now 93. Mommy dearest is 90 and never said a word the last time he got right in my face and took me down right after I had treated them to a beautiful (and expensive) Xmas lunch.

      Trying to make these two understand how hurtful their words and actions are is taken as a sign of weakness and makes them escalate the abuse.

      I have turned my back on this darling little couple and am now described as a mentally ill "elder abuser".

      Anonymous, walk in my shoes for a while. My guess is you won't last sixty days, let alone sixty years!

    3. Well said, Mulderfan! Thank you for telling it like it is.

  76. MN MIL's health is getting worse and I am pretty sure she got some diagnosis a few years back because she left a "yes, you win" not taped to the door.

    So in the face of illness, she is blameshifting others for the state her health is in. It is not that she drinks in the closet, or misuses herbs or chomps raw potatoes to relieve when she is "stuck" that caused her liver to fail (I am guessing this from her yellow eyes), it is that us jealous DILs are so eaten up with jealousy towards her we have committed crimes against her in order to mess up her health.

    She is going down crashing and burning, a total train wreck. She use to ward off her pathological fear of death by her herb addiction and by sucking garlic, now it is almost as if she has a new Narcissist Mask but this one is for God himself, pretending she is the epitome of a Christian. In reality, she is anti-Christian. The most unChristian woman I have ever come across. As if this new mask is going to fool God the way she has fooled everyone else.

  77. Thank you so much for what you're doing. I came to the epiphany that my mother was a malignant narcissist about four months ago while sitting in the bathtub wondering what it was I've done wrong. I was literally called to get out my old college psych text book (from the bathtub) and flip it open...and there it was. My life has not been the same since this realization, and I can't necessarily say all for the better (but knowledge IS power, right?!
    ). It has been hard, bumpy, confusing, totally liberating, and scary. I look back on my life as if to take the six year old in myself by the hand and say, "See what happened there? She was controlling you even then by her emotional manipulation!" It's truly astounding. Her birthday came up on the fourth of jan. I didn't say a word. I felt sooo guilty that the next day I sent an email saying that even though we aren't speaking, I was sending her love and light throughout "her" day. She responded with the most scathing email saying how I'M a "self-centered, calculated" bitch. And how this was just ONE MORE slap in the face to the disgrace of a daughter I've been. Ouch. You put your hand in a flame sometimes, and you truly decide it will be your last. That was it for me. I am determined to be No Contact, but find myself "chickening out" at the thought of it in the long term. I frequently have nightmares where her face changes the way it does when she's REALLY mad (a lot like your Dad...we call it her "Joker Face".) and I wake up sooo disturbed. It feels so real. The torture. The PSYCHOLOGICAL torture is almost creepier than the physical kind! It's nice to put a name to this distinct feeling that there is something fundamentally wrong with ME all these years. Hallelujah! Again, Thank you. Love and Light, Taylor

    1. Taylor, I'm glad you connected the dots and figured out that your mother is a N. There's a reason ACONs go NC, and I mean NO CONTACT NO NOTHING, and you just got a taste of it from your nasty NM. If you make contact with her again she will respond by messing with your head once again. Look at what she wrote in her email: "You are a self-centered, calculated bitch." HA! Talk about projection! Everything they say about us is about them. Fight the urge to contact her and continue to read comments on blogs like this one to remind you that these people/parents never change and they only get worse with age.

      Going NC is the mother of narc injury so they are furious that we want nothing to do with them, and if given the opportunity, they will go in for the kill and gaslight the hell out of us. If you haven't read my post The Malignant Narcissist Mother's Mantra: You Have No Right to Live, then I suggest you do. After 17 years NC with my MN mother and MN sister, I made the terrible mistaking of contacting MN sister, we emailed a bit, and MN mother had my sister send me an email from her that was a message for me to go commit suicide... It was the same message/note she gave me when I was about 16 years old. And I wasn't even in contact with her!!! Moral of the story? Stay away from anyone who can report info back to your mother and who you mother can get to you through.

      I also had nightmares about my family after all the stuff went down recently with MN sister her monkey and my dad and MN mother lurking behind the scenes. One dream was very vivid. My sister was running a zoo in my dad's townhouse, she even had a safari outfit on, and she had wild animals in the basement. I snuck into to my dad's townhouse to check things out and got past my sister and dad, went down into the basement and got chased by a tiger - twice. I managed to save myself from this blood thirsty animal twice.

      Honestly, no good comes of having a relationship of any kind with a MN. You want to send you narc mother love and light? Well then send her a gigantic spot light to shine on herself because that's what she'd really love.

  78. I believe people with MN are just black holes due to their negativity, victimizing themselves, lack of empathy, and so on. I had a parent that was MN and since then I have to put up with in-law thats pretty bad. I've made it clear to my spouse and in-laws that I'm not getting on that carousel ride because it never ends. It doesn't help when they are enablers, and give the excuse that that's how they are and put up with the abuse. After I had my go around of being accused of lies they conjured up, then how I owe them for all the things they've done for me, and how I needed to play by their rules. I refused to be their whipping post and have nothing to do with them even though we have to see each other for family events. People have a choice in picking who they want in their life and I choose to keep away the negative.