Monday, 27 June 2011

Malignant Narcissism is About CONTROL




One thing about malignant narcissism that I cannot stress enough is that it’s All- About-Control. Perhaps, I’m stating the obvious when I say narcissism is all about control? I don’t care.  I’ll say it again, this time really loud: MALIGNANT NARCISSISM IS ABOUT CONTROL.  Every single motivation behind the narcissist’s abuse stems from a pathological need to control what others think, feel, say and do. Every loathsome narcissistic trait such as covetousness, entitlement, greed and predation is an off-shoot of the narcissist’s delusion of control over the entire world, and everyone, and everything in it.

What does it mean to be in CONTROL all-the-time? It means you hold all the POWER. It means you are SUPERIOR. It means you are GOD. Narcissists find their “identity” in POWER.  The more power they wield, the stronger their identity as God becomes. As a result, every waking moment of the narcissist’s wretched existence is devoted to proving to themselves and to those in their pathological space – their mini universe – that they are God. This isn’t hard to do, because like their minds, the narcissist’s world is usually very small.

The narcissist discovers their “identity” in POWER and CONTROL. They view themselves as supreme beings who are in charge of it all… they are God. The narcissist also equates “love” with power and control.  In other words, you prove your “love” to a narcissist by relinquishing all your power and allowing them absolute control. By letting the narcissist control and abuse you – have power over you - you are letting the narcissist love themselves. You are feeding the narcissist’s “image” as God. Narcissistic supply is simply allowing the narcissist to control you.

CONTROL + POWER = The Narcissist’s “Image”
CONTROL + POWER = Love
= Narcissists LOVE their IMAGE.
Narcissists do not love you. They love the way you preserve their narcissistic image.    
Here’s the thing; narcissists only identify with their image and nothing else. Without control, the narcissist is nothing, they are nobody. Without control, the narcissist has no identity. Their image is shattered. That’s why they fight like hell to gain control of everyone and everything around them… their entire identity is riding on it.  The narcissist’s so-called “identity” is extremely shaky. It isn’t a true identity built on human substance. It’s a flimsy illusion built on lies. That’s why the narcissist devotes all their energy to a lifelong war of control: they are continually fighting a private battle to maintain their narcissistic “image.”  
“NO CONTACT” makes the narcissist feel angry, crazy and out-of-control because when you aren’t available to abuse, the narcissist is rendered powerless, empty, and without an identity.  The more they need your supply - to maintain their narcissistic image – the harder they will fight to control you. Going NC puts you in the power position and effectively starves the narcissist and drives them insane. I think that’s why every malignant narcissist I know obtains a “Flying Monkey” of some sort. They always need someone to control and manipulate into carrying-out their evil deeds when their intended target inevitably cuts them off. By sending in their "Monkey"  they maintain their illusion of power. However, If the narcissist were to be abandoned completely, and without a “Flying Monkey” or any “narcissistic supply” they wouldn't know what to do and would surely go insane.  
In fact, I’ve already seen this happen to some extent with both malignant narcissist mother and MN sister. At this point, it would appear that their only source of narcissistic supply is each other and a fed-up Flying Monkey that's flapping its wings into retirement. They are both starving, and they are both feeding off each other, and resenting the hell out of one another in the process. Two malignant narcissists exploiting one another is akin to a starving person eating their own limbs to stay alive. It doesn’t end well.  I’m convinced that their steady descent into madness is the result of a deficiency of supply. After all, narcissists are parasites and they desperately need people around to feed off.   
The fact is, narcissists would have no power over others if people didn’t give it to them. Sadly, others unwittingly give the narcissists power over them to the degree that they lack true self-esteem. These fools mistakenly think that the narcissist will somehow endow them with what “appears” to be a limitless stream of self-esteem. This never happens. Narcissists take whatever others have to offer them to gratify their egos and leave them high and dry.

Narcissist’s view others as objects/tools to exploit any way they please in order to maintain their image. Since they lack normal human feelings and aren’t capable of relating on an emotional level, ALL of the narcissist’s interactions take place in the “realm of the mind.” If you are in a relationship with a narcissist then it is entirely “mental.” Though they are able to "simulate" emotional states, there are no real feelings involved at their end. All of the Narcissist’s relationships are based entirely on mind control and manipulation. They are cold, calculating reptiles that continually plot and scheme. Every single interaction with a narcissist is a business transaction of sorts, based on what they can manufacture in you and then use to exploit you. If they can control your mind and emotions then they can control your behaviour. Ka-ching! Their image of a superior being remains securely intact.
Narcissists don’t relate to others as a human being because narcissists don’t recognize their likeness in others. Narcissists only relate to their “image” as God.  Narcissists can’t empathize with human beings because they don’t see themselves as human beings. They see themselves as above human beings.  Narcissists have no idea what humanity is.  They mistake their bruised ego/image for hurt “feelings” and call their anger humanity. PATHETIC!
Despite being completely oblivious to your feelings, the narcissist is acutely aware, on a moment-by-moment basis, of your emotions and thoughts. They are essentially technicians: pressing buttons, pulling levers, flipping switches and turning dials all in an effort to produce the desired "human effect." The desired effect could be something as simple as eliciting confusion, shame, guilt, a nervous laugh, a sideways glance, an expression of hurt or embarrassment, or a show of admiration or sympathy, or a reaction of anger, or falling prey to their lies and destructive powers of suggestion that leads to you spreading their misinformation, or making a detrimental life choice.  Each and every time the narcissist puppet master succeeds in controlling you – no matter how subtly – you have reinforced their delusion as The Almighty Powerful Oz. Oops - I'm sorry narcs. I meant GOD.  
But remember this: It’s all smoke and mirror folks. Pull back the dark curtain of the narcissist’s psyche and you will find a tiny, frightened, impotent little creature at the controls. Their flimsy false-self is hanging by a thread. Narcissists don’t have any real self-esteem. NONE.  Don’t let them steal yours, they can’t use it, and they wouldn’t know what to do with it anyway.
For true self-esteem doesn’t involve a perverse desire to control the entire universe. Healthy self-esteem is about trusting yourself and being true to yourself and wanting others to trust themselves and be true to themselves; it's about being respectful of your own individuality and the individuality of others. True self-esteem is about being sensitive about others feelings, and considerate of their privacy and needs. True self-esteem is about allowing yourself to find your way in life without handing the controls over to someone else; and it's about allowing others to find their way in life without trying to control them. True self-esteem comes from seeing other people as "other," not as functions of  yourself or as objects to be used for your own gratification.        

60 comments:

  1. I used to wonder why, over the years, I've grown so cold and robotic in my father's presence. I use computer-like, unemotional language, and if I ever respond to what he says, it is in general, academic terms. Looking him straight in the eyes, with a strong, unemotional, steady voice.

    He often implies I'm hard and cruel and always have to win.

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  2. Text book example. Because you don't respond the way he wants you to, because he can't control you, you are "hard and cruel" and "always have to win" - the invisible war that HE has waged. At least he admits he's at war with you.

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  3. Thank you for the "business transaction" insight. That helps to explain what often feels wrong in an apparent kindness.

    - GKA

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  4. //The fact is that narcissists would have no power over others if people didn’t give it to them.//

    VERY, VERY TRUE!

    I am learning now that if I don't squeak, they will ignore me and I would rather be ignored than tortured by their insanity!

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  5. Cheshire, it's sad but true that the best possible outcome with a narc is to be ignored. Sure beats being "Stalked".

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    1. i disagree, being ignored is very painful until you understand npd, at least stalking would display some interest :(

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    2. SmilingAtLast, Even without an understanding of NPD I would ALWAYS take being ignored over being stalked. The only "interest" that stalking displays is an interest the stalker has in causing another person harm. Your point of view on stalking brings to mind the narcissist's desire to receive attention, ANY attention.

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    3. Smiling, None of this is what we would have wished for, OK? I would have *well* preferred indifference/No Response to 18 yrs. of Stalking Hell. But then again, I'm speaking as an ACoN, not in a Chosen Relationship as an Adult.
      TW

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    4. lacking attention through childhood is not NPD, yes i do have fleas but doesnt the fact i can recognise that prove otherwise?

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    5. SmilingAtLast, you didn't say you lacked attention in childhood. You said you would rather be stalked than ignored. I guess being ignored must be very painful for you. Now I'm thinking the Glen Close character in Fatal Attraction. I don't believe you have fleas, but you might be outta your mind.

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    6. What I'd like to know is this: who is the insulting fuck who came up with the term "fleas"? How degrading is that?! It's bad enough we ACoNs had abusive narc parents - now we're blamed for carrying around THEIR fleas. And the role of the family dog lives on. Pfttt. Just another way to victim bash, as well as a convenient ploy for some therapist: "I think you need more sessions, ACoN. I've spotted a few "fleas" on you."

      Fleas don't fly here. That term is officially banned.

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  6. We recently went NO CONTACT for five months. OH MY GOODNESS the flying monkeys started swarming. Some of them "friends" of ours who mysteriously now had connections to N. Very bizarre. And VERY hurtful.

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  7. My mother's 'flying monkey' is my Ex husband. She's gotten him to do some horrible things to me, because he leans on her every word. He's a classic enabler.

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  8. Best, best, best site ever! Others are good but don't focus so much on how to handle narcissists and what is happening to you as a victim and why. Other sites/books focus on what makes the narcissist tick - who cares right? I cannot even tell you how much you have helped me. I feel alive again! Thank you, thank you, thank you!

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  9. Just got out of year long relationship with a narcissistic control freak. He made me wonder about my own sanity. Nothing you say or do is ever correct in their eyes. They brainwash you into believing that what they are telling you is the absolute way things need to be. They are masters at manipulating a conversation and instilling self doubt in to their victims. I am still reeling from this year of verbal, emotional and physical abuse. Sadly, they rarely change because they cannot see what they have become.

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    1. "Sadly, they rarely change because they cannot see what they have become."

      From my experience narcissists NEVER change, they only get worse with age. They refuse to introspect because the information that may surface to their consciousness about who and what they are would likely scare the shit out of them. So they just project, blame shift, lie, gather more N supply, etc. etc. to protect their "false" self. A "self" which is merely a fictional "image" that really only exists in their minds. They will never see what they have become because they don't want to. They are quite happy deluding themselves.

      Narcissists use deflecting techniques to maintain their false "self" their entire life. So they only get better at lying and manipulating and brain washing and controlling etc. etc. Put it this way, a narcissist in their 20s is going to be 20 years worse once they hit 40. They will be more deeply entrenched in their pathology, have a lot more weapons in their arsenal and honed their skills at using them. In other words, narcissists only become more and more abusive. Corruption breeds more corruption.

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    2. So true ,Lisette, so true... I've witnessed this with nfoo and dh's nfoo. They are all worse with age.

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  10. I've been a rebel( don't allow my mother to cross boundaries) and without a conscience (don't go for the crocodile tears) for years.

    I'm also oversensitive and over protective, by nipping potential humiliations of myself and my kids in the bud.

    Have a vivid imagination, I don't believe her version of events.

    I go against her in a very hurtful way, by daring not be unfriendly with ostracized members of my Dads family.

    I have a warped sense of humour, if I tell a joke and of course I have no sense of humour when I refuse to join in with some ridicule. The last time was in a restaurant and I had to apologize to the waitress.

    I'm also very cocksure of myself, when I don't ask her advice on just about everything. And the list goes on and on, narcissists don't give up their possessions and they respect no one.

    Now she's very old and genuinely ill, I listened to her speak on the phone using cleverly crafted sentences in an obviously false positive tone.
    But I resisted the temptation to say, Oooohh, you are sooo brave and positive. I was sympathetic and said it must be dreadful, but I refused to let her extract the desired result.

    Her flying monkeys are my younger sister and especially 2 old friends who like to tell me that she's WUUUNDERFUL ISN'T SHE.

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    1. Do you mean physical ill or mentally? As far as a narc being mentally ill, they are not. They know exactly what they are doing and enjoy every minute of it. The words "sick bastards" crosses my mind now and then. But I don't use it as though they are mental ill.

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  11. Being selfish to the highest extreme and tricking or teasing others into allowing that selfishness is not a mental illness, it's just extreme selfishness. Not treatable and very difficult to control.

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  12. No she's physically ill. But as all her pawns have different roles to play she's also giving different versions out too. For example, her best friend called me to say that NM is on deaths door, so I should head home and wants to know why I'm not weeping uncontrollably. My sister, a golden child, is very matter of fact about it and says that death is not imminent.
    I agree, Narcs are extremely selfish and cruel, and that's not a mental illness. it's just being extremely selfish and cruel.

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    1. A few years back, narc in-law talked like nmother-in-law wasn't doing well and that it was serious. Well, wouldn't you know she is still alive.

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  13. I come from a family of narcissists, brother, sister, cousins. One of their control strategies is to "manufacture" what happened, especially if there is some jealousy or seeming loss in their competition seeing themselves as the "BEST". And with this manufactured information about others comes gossip. You can only remain GOD if you can keep putting certain others down, and if you can get others on your page, and in adoration of you and against someone that threatens you, all the better.

    The people who stand up to the narcissist and tell the truth become enemy number 1.

    Excellent blog!

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  14. My ex husband narc's favorite phrase was "tit for tat". I came to hate that philosophy and him. He never gave freely from unconditional love, but always kept score. If he did something for me, he kept a mental tally going, making sure that I returned the favor - tit for tat. And he would become brutal in his extraction of that expected, demanded favor. My life became a living hell of his keeping score and brutalizing me for not measuring up. I did not have the right to say no. He demanded that I do everything he "expected" of me. His abusive demands were hellish. At family gatherings, I noticed that some of the wives would not be present at all "events", but I was expected to attend every single one - even if I was sick. After eight years of conceding to his abusive expectations and criticisms of me (cooking lavish dinners for his grown kids and extended family, having my right to say no taken away, being raged at and told that I "hate" his family and I have "vendettas" against them, and many more abusive actions too numerous to mention here) I finally put my foot down and said, no, I cannot travel 4 hours out of town this year to a teenager's birthday party; AND THIS DEMON REPTILE DIVORCED ME FOR THAT! He replaced me quickly, asking his new victim to move into what used to be our marital home after only knowing her 6 weeks. It has been the worst living hell that I have ever been through in my entire life - to realize that I was never anything other than an object for his own cold, calculated, evil desires and to make himself look good in others peoples' eyes. Narcs are truly evil. They are not human. How could he recognize me as human when he's not human himself? I truly believe Narcs are emissaries of Satan. Evil to the core.

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    1. Anonymous,

      Your ex sounds like the CLASSIC "tit for tat" Narc Monster! Relationships with narcs are conditional, period. They are the original, "Now what can I get out of this?" Of course, they always project their exploitativeness onto the very people they're exploiting.

      I read somewhere that they assess their victims by their "use value". Once their victims/objects are no longer useful, they discard them. Look what happened when you didn't do EVERYTHING he damanded and expected of you?! He divorced you!

      Just wish you had put your foot down sooner... like on the first date.

      Good riddance DEMON REPTILE!!! The new object's life of hell has only just begun.

      Delete
    2. My ex N husband was the tit/tat as well, but it was more financially related. During our marriage, he was spending us into the poor house, and when I tried to have a discussion about a budget, he just BLEW UP. I then, just decided on separate bank accounts. I found out later, that to keep his end of the financial bargain, he was borrowing from people, etc. I instigated the divorce, but the act of me standing up for myself, his rages turned violent in an attempt to control me. We divorced, I gave him the house because I wanted to move out of state, and saw it as burdon. He couldnt keep it without me on it, (the mortgage company wouldnt approved him), so 4 weeks later, he was living with a new girl, SHE put her name on the house. During our marriage, he claimed everything was tit/tat, but on his end, it was always smoke and mirrors, and I was doing everything. Yeah, I was upset at how I had been used, especially seeing how fast that girl moved in, but at the same time, I was relieved, as he had new N supply, and somebody else to abuse. I felt so free!!! Of course he came back, after she eventually left him. Yeah, just like that. He used our kid, that he doesnt care about as an excuse to bother me and call me everyday. I couldnt beleive the difference and how he bounces back to people for supply. That was hard, but eventually we got his rights terminated, and now, I havent seen this reptile in 10 years!!

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  15. Talk about flying monkeys and control! I endured the living hell of dealing with my narc ex-husband's grown kids who were his flying monkeys. They helped him abuse me emotionally and psychologically - judging me based on what their abusive narc. nasty father was telling them about me behind my back. I didn't realize this for many years, until one day his grown son became nasty with me on the phone and said a phrase that his father used on me constantly. It was sickening. I then realized that my husband (his dad) was talking about me behind my back. And, what about the flying monkeys who absolutely and blindly idolize the narcissistic abuser and enable and defend him? Talk about sickening and evil! To this day, two years after my brutal divorce, I still have thoughts of how his stupid family, in particular, his simple-minded, nasty grown son idolizes and supports his evil narc. father. This grown son used to laugh when his father would rage at me. You nasty, evil demon accomplices! It's bad enough that I was victimized by the narc's abuse, but then to get the double whammy of the flying monkeys' abuse is just pure evil. I felt like I was in a nest of vipers - and I was. These idiot abusers would tell me that I did not have the "right look" on my face at family gatherings and that I didn't stay long enough, and "people see when you leave early". Talk about trying to control! I have to say for myself and all of us who have been victimized, I can leave any time I dam-well need to leave, you silly ass evil disrespectful punk! Nothing is ever good enough for these mentally disordered idiots! They judge and accuse us like Satan himself! And I honestly believe they are of Satan. The sense of entitlement and control coming from these demons is absolutely beyond belief. Victims unite! We will have wonderful lives again, filled with beauty, peace and joy!

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    1. I am beginning to think that the world is just split into two camps. Patricia Evans, in her book, "the verbal abusive relationship" seemed to have put it best. She says, there are those that are collaborative, and those that seek to conquer, dominate, control by any means.

      I used to think that the N people I ran into were freaks of nature, and I just had the unfortunate experience of meeting them. Now, I think that these type of people are interwoven into every aspects of our lives.

      Families, friends, communities, corporations, they all have this dynamic to some degree.

      Yes, you definitely were a trapped viper. The grown sons idolize their evil father, because this is a value they share together. They were totally getting off at witnessing their father abuse you, and like a gang of thugs, just jumped in, and ganged up on you.

      I am sure if more people would get caught, they would be more outlandish about it. But instead, these people opt for careers and situations where they can find targets that they can easily and readily abuse.

      This scenario plays out everywhere, highschool, families, etc.

      Unfortunately, marriage, thats the worse trap of all. You just dont REALLY know until you are actually in the situation.

      With my ex N, sure there were very subtle red flags, but it wasnt until we were married, that he pulled out all the guns of his abuse, AND we had a kid, so he had fresh supply to abuse.

      yes, now that I am the wiser, in all my relationships, its been filled with beauty, peace and joy. I am slowly building my family of choice, and boy, does it make a difference!

      The stupid control antics that they employ, is just meant to stun and disarm you. their way of putting you down so you feel bad about yourself. The only real consistent tactic I've found that works for me in disarming them is laughter, and nonchalance, indifference. That seems to catch them off guard to back down temporarily, (although they will probably go talking behind your back). Thats why I am not in contact with any proxies or anything.

      Delete
    2. "who knows if these kids are just emulating their parents, or if they are just empty souled monsters, trying to find entertainment"

      Huh??? Most kids from nparents end up narcs themselves. That is a fact... The scapegoats are the minority. That is why you have generation after generation of narcissists. Right...

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    3. Anonymous,

      I removed that commenter's posts. They were replying to their own comments before they were even posted. Just weeding out the whackos.

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    4. Lisette, Ok. Definitly a wacko, nothing she said made any since.
      Anon, Aug 11

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    5. She made no sense at all. I was going to reply to her asking WTF are you talking about? But I just decided - weed be gone!

      Delete
  16. Lisette, Have you ever heard of any nfoo that discarded another family member never try to contact them again? I've always have heard that they eventually try to contact again. Even if it's been years.

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    1. I'm not too sure. My guess is some do, and some don't. They might get in contact if they want something. They are never genuinely interested in the well-being of others, including their own children. So if they get in touch, they usually have a hidden agenda.

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  17. I totally can relate to the Anonymous post of August 7, 2012. It was uncanny how fast my mother discarded us when I put her in place regarding her behavior, and she is no longer welcome. She didnt respond, other than, it being behind my back to smear me to everyone and that I must be "going through something"

    I enjoy her not being in my life. My mother is extremely jealous of me, and when we were in contact, seems to live for trying to undermine me and my family.


    So far, now that we 've been NC for five years, her attempts at contact are very stupid hoovering attempts that are just ridiculous. I think she is getting in contact with me, because she needs me, in order for her "to look" good.

    She has no idea what her grand kids look like, but yet, has told everyone that she is raising them. My grandmother died, and she recently emailed me demanding updates of the children. Thats all she was interested in. In the email, she tried to puff up my loser GC, brother, and tried to guilt me into helping out with the care of my enabling father, as I am supposed to be the caretaker.

    Well, I ignore all these hoovering attempts, I see right through them, but since its going on almost six years now, I am wondering just how far my mother will go.

    I am hoping its just a case of her trying to save face, adn its nothing more malicious than that. I am hoping that she will find N supply elsewhere so we will fall off her radar.

    Then, again, I am the only one of her three kids, that has children. I am wondering how far she will go to track them down when they are older, and try to turn them against me. I know this is common in families that are close in contact, and there is an N mother, but in my case, my daughter has only seen her when she was a baby, and my son, unfortunately, had to witness her horrible behavior too. (in an attempt to hurt me, she hurt and insulted him too on many occassions, and he hates her for it).

    My mother doesnt seem very wise, and she seems to just go around in the same circle, (ie, the same predicable patterns of invites, and Xmas, and birthday cards), but I hope she wont get too malicious, track down where my kids goto school, and show up at a sporting event.

    It seems as though these people can only operate if we let them in. It seems as though they need our help. Like whether or not I run into them or not, its not going to change the fact that I am not going to be dads caretaker. (which I think that is the main reason for the hoovering attempt).

    My mom is more of a freenemy, that I have cut off. I am just hoping that she will give up and leave us alone some day. I was hoping my brother or someone else would have a kid, but they purposely dont have kids, because of her, I am told. (how sad).

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  18. Lisette,

    Would love your take on something as it relates to N's and control. Of the N's I still am in touch with, some family, some longtime "friends," I notice they ALL seem to build some sort of artificial have-to-get-off-the-phone excuse into the call with me. I should note that with ALL of these creatures I ( over the past year or two) pulled back sigNIFicantly on the amount of supply I had been giving them for decades. So I'm sure some of this is punishment. But some of this is just who they fucking are. One will only call me between hands of whatever group card game she's playing. (This one could be "See? You're not my ONLY friend ha-ha.") Another, who's been living in Italy for several years will insist on a phone call every six months or so, and when we get on the phone she immediately tells me that she doesn't have much battery life in her phone and we could suddenly -out-of-the-blue be disconnected (And the reason you're not charging your phone BEFORE the call would be???????) Another N physician relative always has to get off the phone to talk to his dysfunctional 50 year old daughter who he speaks to four times a day or his wife, or some other bullshit. But he has to let me know how much more important they are than me.) So Lisette, what's it all about? Can you give me some detailed point of view on why they need to micromanage to such absurd degrees? I will assume that some of it is just to keep me engaged so they can torture me. Now, it's your turn, maestro...

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    1. Anonymous, my first thought is since you are no longer providing them with the supply they crave and EXPECT from you, they no longer have any interest in talking to you. I don't believe it's a form of punishment. Narcs are all about me, what's in it for me. They are pathologically selfish. It always about their time, their conveniences, and their needs. They don't expend an ounce of energy thinking about us. So my guess is, since they are no longer getting what they want and feel they deserve from you, they're done with lengthy conversations. I've found the fastest way to end a conversation with a blathering narc is to change the subject away from them. They immediately become disinterested and suddenly have to go.

      Yes, Narcs are control freaks, but I don't believe any of it has to do with torturing you. They're not thinking about punishing you, or torturing you; they're not thinking about you at all. They are focused on themselves and their needs 100% of the time. Narcissists are uptight and rigid and they must always get their way in relationships. They are the ones who get to call the shots because their time is important and yours isn't. They are not "laid back" and though some of them may hide behind a cool, mellow persona, there is underlying control to everything they do. Also, once a narcissist believes they have won someone over as a frend or lover or spouse, they become arrogantly complacent. As superior beings, they feel above having to make any real effort to maintain a relationship. There is nothing reciprocal about a relationship with a narcissist; it's completely one sided. It all about them.

      So, they call you only when it's convenient for them, they let you know in advance that they're calling the shots because the conversation may suddenly end when THEY want it to, and they let you know that they have someone more important to talk to than you. Tell me why are you even bothering with them?

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    2. "since you are no longer providing them with the supply they crave and expect from you, they no longer have any interest in talking to you."

      So true...

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  19. Thanks. Good question. The Europe one whose been a friend for forty- one years was the only one there for me when my father died and insisted on flying in to help me when it was time to pack up the house and sell it and do those awful things one must do in those circumstances. She actually helped protect me from my MN Sociopathic cousin whose sole desire it was to go in and grab whatever she could a la Zorba The Greek, if you saw that movie. So with regard to why I tolerate this, she's earned some big rewards points with me over the years. ( But, believe me, I've done plenty for her and picked up lots of tabs -- she's a skinflint.) But it's become apparent that she has huge issues with me so I keep her at arm's length hoping that she will "revert" to her good self. But, to answer your question more directly, I think I still have hope for some of these people. Hope my therapist says I must give up. So I'm trying, gradually, to replace them but, I don't have to tell you, there are LOTS of disordered people out there, so it is hard. The one point in your response that I am grappling with a bit is the notion that they are not thinking about me. I then wonder why THEY are initiating contact, unless they still have hope for ME -- that I will revert to being the useful, over-generous, idiot I used to be. That would be my best guess. Also, since I went NC with so much of my family, I have tried to keep the less toxic ones. How many people can you kick out for good?

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  20. The one in Europe sounds like a good friend. I was friends with a narc for 20 years and she wouldn't even let me spend one night on her sofa when I was in a total bind and had no place to go. Her response to my predicament was, "I wouldn't worry about the cost of a hotel room." She would rather see me struggle with all my luggage and pay $300 for a night in a hotel than help a "friend" out. And of course, she would never "offer" to give me a ride to the hotel. That bitch was the last dangling narc I had in my life after I learned about NPD. Bitch dangles no more. It's a spectrum disorder so it's up to you to figure out if the pros outweigh the cons in the relationship. What I meant about them not thinking about you is narcissists are motivated purely by what works for THEM. Like the bitch who didn't let me crash on her sofa: what worked for her was being a withholding selfish, callous bitch because that made her feel good. In other words, she wasn't thinking about how to make me suffer, she was just thinking about how to make herself feel powerful, and watching me suffer happened to be the thing that made this narc feel powerful. She's high on the spectrum though; likely straddling malignant. If the Ns are initiating contact then maybe they're just doing their "frieNdly" duties. Low level narcs are not completely devoid of social graces. They will give you an obligatory phone call to stay in touch, but by the sounds of things they kind of want you to know that they are doing you some great favor. I never once missed a narc I gave the boot to. By the time I got rid of them, the negatives far outweighed the positives.

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  21. Yes, yes and yes. I see all your points now that you've explained yourself. I love your term dangling narc. They dangle us to make sure they always have an inroad in case they need us for something, ( but they want to make it very clear by their ambivalence/dangling and complete lack of total attachment that we never feel comfortable enough to ask anything from THEM. How dare we? We let them dangle us because we keep hoping if we stay connected on some level we'll be there when their miraculous transformation from MN to Normal Human Being occurs. I relate to your hotel bitch story and you were right in "throwing her off the roof". Oddly enough, the friend I was mentioning pulled similar crap with me when I was in Europe and wanted to visit her in Italy. First it was that she couldn't accommodate because she already had guests staying, then the week before I was to leave for Europe ( when she knew it would cost too much to change my ticket) suddenly the guests weren't coming. You're right. They're evil fucks and need to be tossed off a roof. But I gotta tell ya, before I do that I SO want one phone call with her where I pull the plug on the cell phone before she can so that I can then email back: " Man oh man,what is WITH that cell phone battery of yours???" Interesting how they can reduce us to their level.

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    1. "But I gotta tell ya, before I do that I SO want one phone call with her where I pull the plug on the cell phone before she can so that I can then email back: " Man oh man,what is WITH that cell phone battery of yours???" Interesting how they can reduce us to their level."

      Go for it! I had so many opportunities to do to MN sofa bitch the exact same thing she did to me, and I always took the high road. I regret all those missed opportunities to mess with her. However, just before I cut myself free from that toxic frieNDship, I called her on her callous behavior of not letting me crash on her sofa and being totally insensitive to me and my predicament. Her response was to head stright for the door and snark, "Did you ever think about MY situation?!" She had no situation. She was a comfortably pampered narc who had lived in the same apartment for 30 years and never experienced moving and being uprooted or inconvenienced in any way. I told her she lacked empathy and was a big spoiled baby. She is well aware that I think she is a piece of shit and of this I am glad. I don't feel I was reduced to her level. I feel I was only stating the obvious.

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    2. Lisette, I'm wondering what it was about her that made you want to be friends way back when -- given what you were later able to see.

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    3. Anonymous, you're probably well aware that these Ns don't give us one big punch of their nastiness; it happens slowly over time like a drip drop feed of undermining, criticism, anti-support, dismissiveness, callous indifference, superiority, arrogance, selfishness and the list goes on. Personally, I didn't want to dump a friend for one or two infractions. I thought hey, we're human, we make mistakes and I'm too sensitive anyway, and they probably didn't mean it like that, so I let it go. But looking back it isn't one or two or three nasty things, it's a PATTERN of behavior - a PATTERN of poor treatment by the Narc. These Ns can't be jerks all the time because they would all be abandoned. So they let their poison seep out slowly but surely over time. That keeps us off balance and confused as to whether or not they really are total jerks. As for the MN described, I liked her, she was cool and we had some fun times together. Also, she was/is 17 years older than me so I kind of looked up to her like a big sister. Turns out she was more like my MN sister than I knew. Almost 10 years of our friendship I lived at the opposite end of the country so there was just phone calls and she came to visit me one time. As the years went on I became wiser to her sneaky, undermining ways. It was when I moved back to the city where she lived and I got to experience her "ways" up front and personal that I was able to see her for who she really was. Plus I had NPD knowledge under my belt. Four months later, that was the end of that. I also think because she is a borderline MN that like all MNs, she was getting worse with age. But I tell ya, I had some good times with all these narcs. The Nships were just incredibly shallow and if I expected anything "normal" from them like being there for me, or empathy, emotional support etc., then I would be sorely disappointed. Anonymous said it best in a comment in the post "The Aftershock of Narcissistic Abuse."

      "Back when I first escaped the family home, I had ridiculously low standards. I was susceptible to the charming ways of Ns, and unable recognize the abuse, actually thought they were nice...All because the abuse was less than what I suffered at the hands of my mother, and all because these people actually seemed to be nice in between - something that my mother rarely bothered to do unless she had a reason (her thing was mostly get the hell away from me/don't bother me, then abuse when I didn't comply)."

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    4. Hi Lisette, I can't believe I didn't even see your post 'til just now. Well, of course I can relate to it all and N's are such "hiders" that unless they are some low functioning N with no social skills they wait until you are hooked to start their crap. You don't sometimes see this stuff until you do get up front and personal and then you just want to slap yourself on the forehead for falling for the foreplay again. But the last paragraph of your post, the quotation from Anonymous, explains it all -- the shitty girlfrieNds, the shitty, self-centered abusive meN -- all of them that we put up with. Don't ask me why (my own personal therapy) but now I enjoy watching an N "out" himself/herself in email. What do I mean? Well, per your observation, they can't be assholes ALL the time -- they have to mix it up to keep people around -- and then there are all the social distractions that help camouflage the Nasty -- a good restaurant, a good movie -- in case you've gotten wangled into spending an evening with them. But in email -- ha ha - they are TOTALLY NAKED. They literally cannot do a back and forth like us. They suck at responding. They suck at relating. They suck at exchanging. To me it's fun watching them try to pass for normal then give up/ revert back to their N selves. My therapist says they're only good for about two rounds of normal. And she's right. After that, it's too much work for them to put a sentence together. In fact, it's a major effort to even toss you a phrase. Finally, you're not even worthy of a response. (There they go again with the dangling). Hopefully by then you've gotten whatever crumb of info you needed from them and made sure you didn't give them anything back.

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    5. Lisette, after I sent that last email I thought of the perfect way to describe an email "exchange" with an N: it's like parts of speech cost money and they're on a tight budget.

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    6. Tight budget or unlimited budget these narcs are TIGHTWADS, CHEAPOS, skinflints, misers, STINGY in every way. The few friends they still have always come in for shabby treatment; they are ignored, stood up without apology and made to feel inadequate and inferior in many different ways. And whatever energy the narcissist may put forth in the beginning of the realtionship stops: having charmed, seduced, or won others over, the N can now take them for granted and just coast. The irony here is that the most off-putting people "Ns" are the one who feel we should be honored by their presence.

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    7. That is interesting. So as I settle into a weekend where a fuckwad N physician ( breast surgeon I see for prophalactic cancer screenings because of family genetics) deliberately didn't get back to me on the results of an MRI I had two weeks ago ( because a couple of months ago I made him correct an error in my medical records and Narcissus had to admit he'd made a mistake) his flying monkey also does nothing to help me ( like ask him what the results of the MRI were and call me back so I don't worry -- like she USED to do before The Medical Records Mistake) as I seethe over the notion of Okay, I get how awful they are in everyday dealings but who would deliberately not call someone back on a medical issue or at least make the flying monkey pick up the phone...I wonder: WHO THE FUCK MARRIES THESE PEOPLE????? I walk around stunned by the notion that some woman dated this a-hole way back when and said to herself "Yep, he's The One." I can't stand to deal with these pricks for four minutes and these bitches choose 'til death do they part. Okay, so he's a doctor. Okay, so he's got bucks. Who could LIVE with this sack of shit? Do they pull their same crap, passive-aggressive bullshit with their "lucky wives"? By the way, this story has a happy ending for me which you'll appreciate. I was so flummoxed by this a-hole's insensitivity that I totally forgot that when I did the MRI I went to medical records ( because, like you, I have a history of not being able to count on anyone so I always cover my bases) and asked them to send me a copy of the MRI. But I was so mad I'd forgotten that I had done this. As I was seething, wondering how any person , any office could be so callous, the MRI miraculously arrived in the mail, along with a written report of the findings -- normal. I had no idea they would even send a written report to me, the mere person involved who's paying for all this. So I got what I needed without these fuck's cooperation. And based on our "conversations" here about allowing ourselves to retaliate when we feel like it, I called the flying monkey back and told her to forget my request -- I got what I needed. And I made sure I sounded real happy.

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    8. Beyond her own existence, the one thing Mn truly valued was money. As the "banker" to her poorer relatives (she didn't marry a man, she married money) she exploited her privilege in their times of need - not truly helping them (which she paraded herself as doing, as the selfless saint) but to shame them. They got a minimal loan from her with a long sermon on the need for moral improvements, the values of saving, working hard and not relying on "people like her". She continued these lectures by projectively labelling the borrowers moral defectiveness (lazy, selfish, greedy). Then she would spend weeks telling other relatives about her generosity and kindness (yet another chance to shame and systematically diminish the victim). She founded the bloating of her self-importance on the possession of money and could not be called miserly in the classic sense of Scrooge, she gave GC a house and a business in his early 20s, so was not in her counting house counting $$$ all day - she was using it, (whether giving, lending or withholding) to control, manipulate, diminish, separate, shame and destroy.

      She had no shame: God favoured her wealth because she was better and more deserving than others, and she verbally battered less fortunate others with this whenever she could.







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    9. Interesting. What's the source?

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  22. "If the Ns are initiating contact then maybe they're just doing their "frieNDly" duties."

    "They will give you an obligatory phone call to stay in touch"

    Yep, not only that, they will make promises that they never keep(which I see it as lying).Growing up with narcs, the low level ones seem almost "normal." This trapped me into thinking that these people were my "friends." Now that I look back at it all, I can see that they were in control of the relationship and it was mostly always one sided, felt superior,etc.

    So true that when they are done getting what they want from you, they move further away from the relationship or all together discard you. Not knowing at the time what I was dealing with, I wasted over half of my life with people like this. It sucks being at the age I'm at now and having to start all over. It's not easy.

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  23. You're so right on both top counts, and upon further thought I would add one more. They stay in fuckyoutouch just to remind themselves they're God and have all this control over you. Kinda like: "Look at you, you poor shmuck. You're still biting when I throw out the line. Ah, it's good to be king."

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  24. "they want to make it very clear by their ambivalence/dangling and complete lack of total attachment that we never feel comfortable enough to ask anything from THEM. How dare we?"

    That is very well put. I once had a narc frieND say to me,"You know what I like about you Lisette? You never ask anyone for help." Honestly, that's what they like about us, that we don't ask them for anything. They are not friends with us for who we are, they're friends with us because we play by THEIR rules.

    "Yep, not only that, they will make promises that they never keep(which I see it as lying).Growing up with narcs, the low level ones seem almost "normal." This trapped me into thinking that these people were my "friends."

    I fell into the same trap. I also see their promises that they never keep as outright lies. Once, and only once, I made the mistake of asking a bunch of N frieNDs for help. I moved out of my apartment on New Years day because the crazy cheap ass landlady refused to turn on the heat. Yes, it was a shitty day to move but 2 male Narcs confirmed that they would help, "Sure, no problem." This other narc, who I like to refer to as "Baby Heuy", was this big burly guy who could have lifted a sofa over his head. He knew I was in a freezing cold apartment, without help and packing on New Years eve for a move the next day. So what does he do? He calls me all New Years eve asking me to go party with him. I told him "no" becasue I was moving in the morning. Did this fucktard offer to help me? Hellz NO! All he did was whine about me being a kill joy, party pooper. His only concern was that I wouldn't accompany his burly ass on New Years. So moving day rolls around and the 2 Narcs who said they would help me are a no show. I calll them and they both don't answer their phone. I tried them a couple of hours later to no avail. I had hired a mover with a truck so I had to call the mover to ask him to get another guy which would cost me more. So, I moved out of that apartment and into another apartment that was across the street from the MN who wouldn't let me crash on her sofa. She told me to call her when I arrived at the building and she and her boyfriend would come over and help. So I call her and a hour or so later she meanders across the street and into my apartment. She doesn't lift a finger, she just stands there all official like an interior designer barking orders of where I should place my furniture. I sked her where her boyfriend was and she tells me he's at her place watching movies. So much for help from his lazy narc ass. The movers finally leave and I'm famished so I order, and of course pay for, a big pizza for me and the MN. So what does the MN do? Without asking me, she calls up her lazy ass narc bf and tells him that I had just ordered pizza. At full speed, he waddles his lazy ass over to my place to indulge in pizza.

    And that's what happened the one and only time I ever asked narcs for help. And I have moved a lot in my life. As for the N who said, "You know what I like about you Lisette? You never ask anyone for help." He said that AFTER this fateful move. Because 7 months after that move, I moved again and I didn't ask anyone for help. It's as if he was telling me that I had learned my lesson. As for those Ns being no shows for my move, I never called them on it and they never apologized. After that, slowly but surely, I started cutting ties to these Narcs. On some level, I believe that because I was something of an orphan, they knew they could get away with bad behavior because there was no one looking out for me. It feels very lonely to be surrounded only by narcs.

    "I wasted over half of my life with people like this. It sucks being at the age I'm at now and having to start all over. It's not easy."

    So did I. It does suck starting over, but I know one thing: I would rather have no friends than a bunch of N frieNDs.

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  25. Yes, there was so much time they stole from us, though the freedom from them has given me a completely different life, fuelled by energy and hope, (rarely present before) and this seems to have brought about an extraordinary transformation in my physical body so that I have a very positive state of health for the first time in my life. As I am 65, have had two strokes and am immunodeficient, the doctors are genuinely astonished at this mysterious transformation. They think it is some kind of mysterious recovery, though it's not mysterious to me.

    I recently read this in Dean Koontz's novel "Odd Apocalypse" and it struck a profound chord of recognition in me:

    "All tyrants try to kill twice. Mere physical destruction does not staisfy them. They use fear to wither your spirit, continuous propaganda and cruel mockery to confuse you, torture to break more than your body... They want to reduce you, if they can, to the condition of a frightened animal who has lost any faith that might have sustained him, who accepts his humiliation as deserved, who descends into such depression that he forsakes all belief that justice is attainable, that truth exists... They are all in the army of the damned, and if they have a stronger faith in the righteousness of evil than their victims have in the reality and power of good, they cannot lose".

    My emergence from exactly that kind of oppression explains my seemingly inexplicable (to the medical profession) physical recovery.
    Any single DAY spent in this 'new' life is more valuable and livable and wonderful than a YEAR spent under the yoke of MN evil, so strange though it may seem, I do feel compensated even for the lost time. The only crap I have to deal with now is the 'stuff of ordinary lives', not the relentless malefaction of malignant narcs who revel in their destructive power. My energy isn't lost to a fulltime rearguard action anymore. It is available as an intrinsic power for my own benefit for the first time.

    Like you Lisette, I have moved many times in the past, partly trying to evade the MNs. But in the worst decades I belonged nowhere, to nothing, not even to my Self, because I was still their hostage, they had enslaved my consiousness to the extent that I felt it was a crime against nature to exist as my self. No slave can be self-determining, and they enslaved our consciousness, for a time. It is our time now. I so admire what you achieve here every day. You know the dinner party game, who would you like to invite to the perfect dinner party? My answer today is: you Lisette, and Dean Koontz. :)

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    1. Anna, that is great news about your health! I also have more energy and clarity than I've ever had before. For most of my life, I felt as if I was wearing a heavy wool coat in the middle of summer. It was most definitely, like you say - oppression. Oppression that has now been shed. Another thing you said that really hit home was this: "I have moved many times in the past, partly trying to evade the MNs. But in the worst decades I belonged nowhere, to nothing, not even to my Self, because I was still their hostage, they had enslaved my consiousness to the extent that I felt it was a crime against nature to exist as my self." During my coat wearing days, I remember sitting at the beach and saying to myself,"Who the hell do you think you are?! You have no right to enjoy the beach!" That message actually reached the level of consciousness so I can only imagine what was brewing in my sub-conscious. That vile witch of a MNM sure did a number on my psyche. I truly felt that I had no right to live. But no fucking more! I've kicked the door down and stepped into my Self. I also gave the MNs a good mental shit kicking along the way. If you ever have that dinner party, I'm in! I've never read any Koontz, but I will now. Love that quote. When I read words like that, I suspect the author has first hand experience with evil. The three of us sure could have some interesting dinner convo! The first time I realized the bitch was evil was... oh, could you please pass the salt? ;)

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  26. Great responses, Lisette and Anna. It's amazing, all these stories. The drecky acts remain the same, only the names change. I'm sure there's someone in Cardiff right now, reading this stuff and saying to him/herself, yeah I had assholes do the same thing to me when I once in my life asked for some help with a move. Happily, there are a few satisfactions here. One, it is possible now ( since I'm looking at the worst of the lot in my rear view mirror) to size up new N's instantly and avoid giving away any more chunks of my soul to these fuckwads. Two, I have found it easier to just pay people to do stuff. In the long run it's way cheaper than any quid pro quo deal you could ever strike with a frieNd. With them it can never be anything but a sham exchange anyway. Three, animals. If I ever for one second start looping about these parasites, all I have to do is play with my dogs. Four, Anna is right that after a while you do get a whole new lease on life and can start going out there and filling in the gaps with healthier choices.

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  27. ok yes i am from cardiff, it doesnt just strike a chord it is the melody of my life, 17 times i've had to move, has somebody recognised my posts?

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    1. Yeah, I didn't get that Cardiff bit either. Maybe just a random local that anonymous pulled from the visitor feed to illustrate a point? I've moved about 40 times so shit, stressful, lonely, horrible moves is a big part of the story of my life. And the one time I did ask for help... well...I explained what happened.

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  28. Lisette, you are correct. I could have just as easily picked Cincinnati. Just trying to illustrate a point. Everyone does relate to this and not just with a move either. N's are the official No Help Zone.

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    1. Anon, Thanks for clarifying. Boy howdy, are Ns the official No Help Zone!

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